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Chibi Daz also means we can get help to talk to him, not Just putting the weight of another world on our shoulders.

This is actually part of the reason I voted for chibi. I think it's a good idea to not just have Kakara as the one with unilateral decision making powers on Dazarel's fate. It's tempting to think that the more power we give Kakara, and ourselves, over the situation the better the outcome, but I don't like putting the weight of that decision and literally all of the work onto her shoulders. It doesn't seem particularly healthy or wise to me. Probably not a popular opinion considering I'm purposefully advocating less agency there though.

If it is chosen, I think we need to double down on how Kakara is taking personal responsibility for Dazarel if asked publicly. That she knew that he could be a threat, but wanted to show him mercy without burdening her people with that decision. It's the best narrative I can think of that fits with Kakara's mindset up to this point (Protector-compliant), and that doesn't emphasize the power grabbing component as much.

The only thing that does rankle me a bit is that it is explicitly the temptation of power that pushes the Ambitious vote weighting, and current close vote, we have here. Without that lil Dazzy would be assured :cry:
 
I'm fairly sure Cynthia Balor won't be interacting with the dragon, no matter what. And if she does, I fear for our progress with him.
Why?

She's been one of the more anti conflict characters we've seen in this quest, but she also recognises the need for self defence. I can absolutely imagine her trying to argue with him, even if it's not pretty, because she seems like someone who would at the least respect us trying to change his nature.

I dont see her liking him, but I can also see her respecting our decision and wanting to help.

At the very least, it's worth a try, which we can't if the only one who can talk to him, who has to deal with the burden, is us alone.
 
I have a hard time believing that we need to spend an action to interact. A lot of it will probably consist of talking whenever we feel like it between tasks.
Also, going Chibi dragon becomes a very manual process of talking through, as well as more of a threat to the masquerade, and the psychological insights of being able to hear what Dazarel thinks about specific things will be invaluable.
 
Though I've somehow missed this, has there been a bunch of discussion about Learning Tinkering and forming a Drama Club? This is the first I remember hearing about it. Just curious if I somehow missed a bunch of discussion about it, which is totally possible.

And honestly if we're learning new non-combat skills I think it might behoove Kakara to learn Ki-Healing and up her Medicine skill, she gets a trait that boosts that and her eventually heading toward being some kind of Medical Doctor might be interesting. Especially as it's a non-fighting use of Ki that she could help the populace develop.
People have been wanting Tinkering since it was offered as a possible skill in character creation, but I'm pretty sure it's never going to happen - too many other shiny options, where Tinkering is an option that will lead to other options by definition. We just have too strained an action economy. Joining Drama Club was an idea as to how to grind our terrible Deceit skill, given how important that is in a talk-y build. It's also probably a social/fun thing to do. We had it as an option this year, but 2 actions was just too much to squeeze in, sadly. I think there are other people in the thread who'd like to work on Ki Healing too and even become a doctor, but the first is a long shot and the second will almost certainly never happen - becoming a doctor takes lots of training for very long hours. We'd never balance it against our other responsibilities.
 
I'm fairly sure Cynthia Balor won't be interacting with the dragon, no matter what. And if she does, I fear for our progress with him.
And why would you say such a thing?
She's the niece of our Seer tutor, has been capable of keeping that secret for a couple years now, and our previous talk with her showed her to be someone smart enough and introspective enough to care about ethics and other people.

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I have a hard time believing that we need to spend an action to interact. A lot of it will probably consist of talking whenever we feel like it between tasks.
Also, going Chibi dragon becomes a very manual process of talking through, as well as more of a threat to the masquerade, and the psychological insights of being able to hear what Dazarel thinks about specific things will be invaluable.
No free lunches.
We had to deliberately schedule time to spend with our brother in order to get a handle on his jealousy and our deterioriating relations, and he's our brother.
We are not likely to get free time with Daz.
 
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as well as more of a threat to the masquerade
?

Literally How when he's explicitly going to be robbed of his Physical and Ki/Psi power and we can keep him around Saiyan Guards?

No seriously, did I miss the memo about Chibi Daz retaining his Ki or something?
And why would you say such a thing?
She's the niece of our Seer tutor, has been capable of keeping that secret for a couple years now, and our previous talk with her showed her to be someone smart enough and introspective enough to care about ethics and other people.
Also this ties into what I said earlier.

Cynthia doesn't like conflict, but she recognises there may be a need for it. She's a damn intelligent woman from all evidence available. I can abdolutely see her arguing with Dazrael.

Actually, is Dazrael his name, because with everything happening, im half convinced he thought it was cool and named himself that.

I think you are missing the entire point of my post. I am saying because we made the decision it is our responsibility to go through with it, if we don't go ahead and try to talk with him at least we failed regardless of what someone else might, or might not, do. Though I suppose if we come to someone(s), or someone(s) comes to us, and we keep some level of contact as they try that could be acceptable, still would leaving me feeling we are shirking the responsibility of the consequences of our actions depending on how it is written.

Right, thats fair.

Im of the opinion that it's also just too big for us alone to do. I agree that, whatever we choose, talking to him is a must, but I think having the safety net of not having to go through with it alone will make for talking to him and ensuring he's treated fairly a lot easier.
 
Joining Drama Club was an idea as to how to grind our terrible Deceit skill, given how important that is in a talk-y build. It's also probably a social/fun thing to do.
Ah I can see the logic there, though I'm not sure I'd agree Drama Club as being the way to do that, rather then say a Debate Club, but that's just splitting hairs.
I think there are other people in the thread who'd like to work on Ki Healing too and even become a doctor, but the first is a long shot and the second will almost certainly never happen - becoming a doctor takes lots of training for very long hours. We'd never balance it against our other responsibilities.
Well the actually being a Healer/Doctor thing would be a very, very long term goal and one Kakara might even decide to give up on down the line to focus on more Political things, but would still help with the eventual goal of de-stigmatizing non-combat uses of Ki and Medicine in general for the Exiles and give something beside firepower for the Humans to focus on.

After all while the Human nations are scared of us for being super warrior's it would be nice to also show them "Oh this can to used for Healing too"

Also Ki-Healing might be useful in saving people's lives for the Invasion, after all if we arn't fighting we can literally be in four places at once healing people.
 
Yammar wont do that. Like people said, he's lawful evil.

Our word is law, our punishment is law. Therefore, should we choose to let him live, whether he likes it or not, Thats
*opens mouth, closes it* I was going to argue that, but then I realized my alternate intrepretation of his character is derived from information the thread does not have access to. And even by admitting this, I'm altering the thread through such information.
Except if we stuff him in our heads, doesnt that say we think that only we can make him change? Our Actions reflect how we think of others.
To be quite frank, I don't imagine "redemption" to be high on the list of what other people seek to do. Even Berra, who only advocates the chibi solution because he knows Kakara is vehemently anti-killing.

Personally, I'd argue that it's more us taking personal responsibility for him. Personally, I'm hoping to hold him until we're sure he won't just rampage, and then slowly socialize him. If we can socialize him with others while still in the seal, all the better, though I'm not counting on that.
Though I've somehow missed this, has there been a bunch of discussion about Learning Tinkering and forming a Drama Club? This is the first I remember hearing about it. Just curious if I somehow missed a bunch of discussion about it, which is totally possible.

And honestly if we're learning new non-combat skills I think it might behoove Kakara to learn Ki-Healing and up her Medicine skill, she gets a trait that boosts that and her eventually heading toward being some kind of Medical Doctor might be interesting. Especially as it's a non-fighting use of Ki that she could help the populace develop.
Drama club has been brought up to train Deceit, interact with others and establish a reputation amongst the humans, as Drama is well respected. As for Tinkering, Poptart has expressed a desire for it, as have several others, including myself. Aka, give the QM something they really want to write.

Medicine and Ki-Healing are definitely on the bucket list.
Why?

She's been one of the more anti conflict characters we've seen in this quest, but she also recognises the need for self defence. I can absolutely imagine her trying to argue with him, even if it's not pretty, because she seems like someone who would at the least respect us trying to change his nature.

I dont see her liking him, but I can also see her respecting our decision and wanting to help.

At the very least, it's worth a try, which we can't if the only one who can talk to him, who has to deal with the burden, is us alone.
And why would you say such a thing?
She's the niece of our Seer tutor, has been capable of keeping that secret for a couple years now, and our previous talk with her showed her to be someone smart enough and introspective enough to care about ethics and other people.
Because she's a major character in the RP and has a negative communication score, which only gets worse when dealing with beings like Dazarel, something those close to her are aware about, and thus will seek to avoid them meeting.
 
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People have been wanting Tinkering since it was offered as a possible skill in character creation, but I'm pretty sure it's never going to happen - too many other shiny options, where Tinkering is an option that will lead to other options by definition. We just have too strained an action economy. Joining Drama Club was an idea as to how to grind our terrible Deceit skill, given how important that is in a talk-y build. It's also probably a social/fun thing to do. We had it as an option this year, but 2 actions was just too much to squeeze in, sadly. I think there are other people in the thread who'd like to work on Ki Healing too and even become a doctor, but the first is a long shot and the second will almost certainly never happen - becoming a doctor takes lots of training for very long hours. We'd never balance it against our other responsibilities.
Honestly Kakara just hasn't been built up as a person who "Tinker" feels appropriate for. And she's already got Ki Prodigy, Seer, Living Saint, and Super Diplomat as "hats" to wear.

And why would you say such a thing?
She's the niece of our Seer tutor, has been capable of keeping that secret for a couple years now, and our previous talk with her showed her to be someone smart enough and introspective enough to care about ethics and other people.
She may or may not desire to talk to Dazarel but we shouldn't count on her being regularly available. She's an adult, I'm sure she's busy with stuff.

Ah I can see the logic there, though I'm not sure I'd agree Drama Club as being the way to do that, rather then say a Debate Club, but that's just splitting hairs.

Well the actually being a Healer/Doctor thing would be a very, very long term goal and one Kakara might even decide to give up on down the line to focus on more Political things, but would still help with the eventual goal of de-stigmatizing non-combat uses of Ki and Medicine in general for the Exiles and give something beside firepower for the Humans to focus on.

After all while the Human nations are scared of us for being super warrior's it would be nice to also show them "Oh this can to used for Healing too"

Also Ki-Healing might be useful in saving people's lives for the Invasion, after all if we arn't fighting we can literally be in four places at once healing people.
I'd be more open to Doctor/Healer Kakara. It feels like a more natural fit, though I think Diplomat/Politician Kakara is just as likely.
 
2 school actions.
2-3 actions on friends/family.
2-4 actions reserved for the invasion and prep.
2 actions for Drama club.
1 action for Jaffur.
1 action Dazarel.
1 action for Perfect Multiform.
1 action for Tinkering.
1 free action.

Very basic outline. :V
My point is, depending on exactly how the vote goes, there is no guarantee that an "interact with Dazarel" plan will win over a "don't interact with Dazarel" plan. Neither head-dragon nor chibi-dragon FORCES us to interact with Dazarel;* in the former case we can shut down his seal and in the latter case we can simply, y'know, not talk to him.

Since interacting with Dazarel is apt to be time-consuming, is unlikely to redeem him and make him useful with a single year/turn/action, and is unlikely to be a net positive for Kakara's mental health, it's entirely possible, even likely, that on this turn or some future turns, we won't vote to spend actions interacting with Dazarel.

The question then becomes, what are the consequences of our deciding not to do so?

In the head-dragon case, he certainly can't harm anyone, but he'll be spending the year locked in solitary confinement.

In the chibi-dragon case, he might theoretically do harm despite his lack of power, but he also won't be spending the year locked in solitary confinement.

______________________________________________

*In fact, the argument advanced by some head-dragon supporters that "this will force us to interact with Dazarel instead of ignoring him" kind of contradicts an important defense of head-dragon that was raised earlier. Namely, the defense "Dazarel can't corrupt or harass us because we can shut him up whenever we like."

We can't protect ourselves from harassment if we don't shut him up, and we can't interact with him if we do shut him up. All head-Dazarel has to do to subvert any 'free action' options we get for interacting with him is be a jerk, forcing Kakara to shut him up if she wants to get anything done or have any peace. And frankly... he's already a jerk, so the odds of that happening are not low.

Simon, I want you to look at what you're saying. Even ignoring the fact that this is dragon ball, where having power and not being a planet buster is really rare, you're literally going "if an enemy is capable of completely and utterly defeating us, they'll add this extra step to our forced suicide and/or destruction of the planet"...
I can easily imagine a situation where the threshold of mental influence required to get us to let Dazarel out is lower than the threshold required to compel us to literally self-destruct or stand unresisting while someone else kills us.

Our vulnerability to mind control subversion is at best constant but at worst increased if we have a sealed ancient evil inside our mind that we can release by an act of will.

Except they don't need to use Dazarel at all. Your example with our siblings? It's exactly the same situation if Kakara doesn't have Dazarel inside her: destroy the planet or your siblings get it. Because that's literally what their demand is, and isn't affected either way.
If Kakara tried to blow up the planet, Berra or Apra or Yammar would have a realistic chance of stopping her. If Kakara released Dazarel and Dazarel tried to destroy the planet, not so much.

And your Renegade Saiyan example makes no damn sense, because if they want to destroy the planet, they could do it themselves. Easily!

Simon, please. :(
The fact that so far no one has blown up Garenhuld strongly suggests that one saiyan of equal or greater power can generally stop another saiyan from doing so.

Someone who cannot bring about a disaster themselves due to active opposition might nevertheless try to do so indirectly by releasing a greater threat which cannot be stopped as easily. I mean, that's the entire Babidi story right there, no?

As a counter-argument, however, it takes either repeated usage of a trait to cause it to evolve, and/or for us to push the boundaries and define or redefine it. Your Protector example being a bad one, as we were in a period of self-reflection and discovery as the playerbase had previously violated a second-tier trait with a sub-trait. It's development is therefore both logical and fitting.
Absorbing the dragon for power and knowledge, and/or out of the conviction that no one else can do as much to reform him as we can so we don't even want others being able to talk to him, would be a pretty significant push of the boundaries of what it means for Kakara to be "ambitious." Or "proud."

Furthermore, we've already spent numerous actions on things aimed at our long-term ambitions. One can reasonably argue that all our stewardship, scion-duty, and even training actions are based around cultivating our personal and political power. If there's a requirement for "must spend actions pursuing the goals indicated by this trait" required for a trait to evolve, I'm pretty sure we've met it for "Ambitious."

The main reason it wouldn't evolve is because in pivotal moments, we don't tend to choose actions taken "because this makes us stronger" and for few or no other reasons. If that changes, then a major reason for us not to sprout undesirable subtraits related to pride and ambition goes away.

And something to note? Not once has one of our first-tier traits evolved without us dedicating an action to doing so, despite several of them being used multiple times since we got them. As such, I do not hold that a single usage of Ambitious is liable to cause it to evolve into a new, more unwelcome trait.
Alternate hypotheses to your explanation:

-There may be a dice roll mechanic behind the scenes; luck may be involved.

-There may be some way in which trait evolution is related to how plot-important the actions we take are, and our actions involving Dazarel are by far the most plot-significant actions we've taken, being as how they directly prevented the destruction of the entire world. The only other thing that was anywhere near as important was the Sealing, and we were popping traits left and right back then (to be fair that was the prologue).

And this I can believe.

Kakara is her own person, and she's being run ragged. She needs time to rest and relax.

A genocidal Smaug in her head wont help with that. Even if she can shut it up, The fact remains that she wont be spending time talking to him if it's time she's not devoting to getting better or making sure she's emotionally stable.

Aye Aye.

Also Sailor [Blank] Maya and, of course, Tuxedo Mask Jaffur!
Clearly Kakara is Sailor Sigma, since we (now?) know that's the name of Garenhuld's moon. Of course, she transforms into a giant gorilla when exposed to moonlight, which is a bit off, but hey, that's the joke! :p

Maya is Sailor Garenhuld. I mean, of course she is. Severe mental block about saying what needs to be said, actually from this planet? She's a natural.

The other Misfit girls can get names for other planets in the system.
 
@PoptartProdigy, would the Oddball trait give us a bonus to whatever Communication checks would be involved with sealing Dazarel inside us since apparently no one has thought of sealing the dragon inside Kakara?
 
I have a hard time believing that we need to spend an action to interact. A lot of it will probably consist of talking whenever we feel like it between tasks.
Kakara doesn't have a lot of "between tasks" downtime; that's her problem. She's already using just about every conceivable productivity-maximizing trick and rigorously schedules her entire life to wring as many actions out as she can.

Hell, she's so busy already that being in three places at once for a few hours a day only adds like 15% or so to her total pool of action options.
 
Because she's a major character in the RP and has a negative communication score, which only gets worse when dealing with beings like Dazarel, something those close to her are aware about, and thus will seek to avoid them meeting.

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...Right, I can see that happening then.

But still, if communication score is so important: What about asking help from Fren? It's unlikely, but I dont think impossible, and while she may not directly help us, she'd likely still be open to trying to help out in some fashion.

Ultimately, choosing to do it ourself denies pretty much anyone to do it, while assuming that Kakara alone has the ability to. If we don't, we instead have to waste time talking to other people to try and make it easier to talk to him.
To be quite frank, I don't imagine "redemption" to be high on the list of what other people seek to do. Even Berra, who only advocates the chibi solution because he knows Kakara is vehemently anti-killing.

Personally, I'd argue that it's more us taking personal responsibility for him. Personally, I'm hoping to hold him until we're sure he won't just rampage, and then slowly socialize him. If we can socialize him with others while still in the seal, all the better, though I'm not counting on that.
A Chibi Daz is likely about as effective as a kitten at rampaging, so while the crockery would sadly be sacrificed, Im not seeing any greater danger in terms of him being out of our head as opposed to inside.

As for the other part, True they may not consider redemption, but I imagine that they'll take note of Kakara asking him to be sealed in her. Not necessarialy good or bad ones, but it's not the kind of thing that you just ignore. I agree on us taking personal responsibility though, I just dont think we have to try and be the sole person to do it.
Clearly Kakara is Sailor Sigma, since we (now?) know that's the name of Garenhuld's moon. Of course, she transforms into a giant gorilla when exposed to moonlight, which is a bit off, but hey, that's the joke! :p

Maya is Sailor Garenhuld. I mean, of course she is. Severe mental block about saying what needs to be said, actually from this planet? She's a natural.

The other Misfit girls can get names for other planets in the system.
And no thoughts on Tuxedo Mask Jaffur who hates every second of transformed Screentime? :p
 
As for Tinkering, Poptart has expressed a desire for it, as have several others, including myself. Aka, give the QM something they really want to write.
I was unaware but I definitely can see where the sentiment is coming from.
I'm starting to get slightly annoyed at all the talk of the RP, ether its cannon and actively influencing what is going on in this quest and we should have a lot more knowledge as a play base then we apparently do, or its just an Alternate Universe which means any information gleaned from it is at best theoretical and shouldn't be treated as any more gospel then anything else.
Honestly Kakara just hasn't been built up as a person who "Tinker" feels appropriate for. And she's already got Ki Prodigy, Seer, Living Saint, and Super Diplomat as "hats" to wear.
I agree with you, I'm not against Tinker Kakara by any means, it could really be interesting, but just with the characterization and development we've gone though this far it seems unlikely. I'd rather we expand our circle of friends to include a Proto-Bulma we can talk theory with and help then become one ourselves, just seems more natural.
I'd be more open to Doctor/Healer Kakara. It feels like a more natural fit, though I think Diplomat/Politician Kakara is just as likely.
She's going to be a Politician by trade anyway, being the Lady of Clan Goku but your right her focus to really go in a lot of ways right now.
 
Because she's a major character in the RP and has a negative communication score, which only gets worse when dealing with beings like Dazarel, something those close to her are aware about, and thus will seek to avoid them meeting.
I do not have access to the RP, and so cannot judge one way or the other.
Or even if the characterizations will stay consistent between that and this Quest.
There are still hundreds of thousands of Saiyans on Garenhuld, even barring the actual trained therapists; we have a significant talent pool to draw on.

Drawing on other people is part of the whole point of leaving him as a chibi.
Thematically, it works as well because Kakara drew on the help of everyone living on Garenhuld to beat Daz; doing so to socialize him follows the same thematic progression of trusting society to aid in something important.

I like the symmetry, and think it's important.


Tangentially, I will remind people that Kakara is 13, and CAN be overburdened.
The last time Kakara got overstressed; she simply walked away and quit everything in the middle of a meeting with the heads of government of Garenhuld. That worked out because Berra was there to take up the slack.

If we seal a head dragon, it is not a burden or a responsibility that can be laid down or handed over to someone else for a while.
There will be noone to take up the slack when we're tired, and our only option for solitude or relaxation will be to lock him up behind his seal.

Kakara will be well aware that everytime she locks him away she's subjecting him to sensory deprivation, and it becomes a battle between her Compassion trait and her fatigue.
This is not a good dilemna to intentionally set up.
 
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What uju just said.

I agree with you, I'm not against Tinker Kakara by any means, it could really be interesting, but just with the characterization and development we've gone though this far it seems unlikely. I'd rather we expand our circle of friends to include a Proto-Bulma we can talk theory with and help then become one ourselves, just seems more natural.
Agreed; I'm betting that this should be Gemma's job, since it's Gemma's main outstanding trait other than Yet Another Low-Level Ki User.

The only problem is breaking her of the Garenhulder mental block regarding technological innovation.
 
Agreed; I'm betting that this should be Gemma's job, since it's Gemma's main outstanding trait other than Yet Another Low-Level Ki User.

The only problem is breaking her of the Garenhulder mental block regarding technological innovation.
Gemina's my first though on getting a Tinker character as well, and after the invasion it should be simple enough, after all one way or the other we'll have all the Alien's tech, and hopefully a group of friendly alien's that would be avalible to teach. Gemina's the kind of character that would probably jump at the chance to learn things from them, which will go a ways towards breaking the anti-innovation mind set, hopefully anyway.
 
Gemina's my first though on getting a Tinker character as well, and after the invasion it should be simple enough, after all one way or the other we'll have all the Alien's tech, and hopefully a group of friendly alien's that would be avalible to teach. Gemina's the kind of character that would probably jump at the chance to learn things from them, which will go a ways towards breaking the anti-innovation mind set, hopefully anyway.
Might need more than that, given that its implied something or some kind of cultural trauma is stopping them from truly breaking out.
 
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