Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
Piccolo might still be around somewhere, preserved.
Dragon Ball: After the End
HorizonWanderer
Go beyond 'further beyond'.
- Location
- Betwixt and between broken skies
It's less that the muscles themselves are the problem. They're more a symptom of the real issue.
The muscles expand so much due to an increase in Ki and all flowing through the body, right?
Essentially they're like... balloons full of led. The sheer amount of power is too much for the body to handle, essentially, making it harder to move quickly, but as with a lead balloon... Well, it's really slow and heavy, but damn if it doesn't hit hard.
That's the reasoning I use at least.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Because they're fighting against comparably powerful opponents. Everyone is moving at ludicrous speeds, and the physically bulkier people move at less ludicrous speeds than the physically slimmer ones.
It's for the same reason why you have to be careful and pare down every available kilogram of weight for an interplanetary space probe, even though the probe is being launched on several hundred tons of rocket fuel to travel at brain-croggling speeds of tens of thousands of miles per hour. Because while in absolute terms the forces and speeds involved are huge for every case, in relative terms there's a big difference in performance.
That's not a terribly convincing argument. A spacecraft has to fight the tyranny of the exponential Tsiolkovsky equation, and thus a marginal kilo of payload can easily require a hundred kilos of fuel. The relative differences actually converge as power levels increase, hence why weighted clothing stopped being a thing. For the fighters the additional mass represents ever less investment of the power delivered, working out to billionths of a percent at Cell-saga levels or less than a single power point of disadvantage in speed.
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KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
10000% more awesome, sure.
Ppppppppprobably not. At least, not in the Mortal World.
I honestly just abstract it to something like "that form takes energy previously devoted to speed and puts it into strength and power".
HorizonWanderer
Go beyond 'further beyond'.
- Location
- Betwixt and between broken skies
That also works.
Something something 'Power Weighted' doesn't mean they're weighted down by power, it means they've sunk All their energy into Power and are thus comparatively weighted down.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The Enemy killed him, and the killing process was described as "vaporized buying that time." Wouldn't bet on him being around.
If it were literally anybody else...
Eh, not really?
We all know the basic formula for kinetic energy: KE = 0.5mv^2. Meaning that m = KE/0.5/v^2 and v = √(KE/0.5/m).
So, if mass were to double but energy were to remain the same, velocity would be halved. We know that the transformation roughly doubles power, so if it roughly quadrupled mass, speed would remain the same.
Of course, that assumes Ki follows the laws of physics, which it doesn't appear to. By all indications, double the power equals double the speed, so if mass is also doubled then speed remains equalised. Aka, v = Ki/m.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
We know that, by the sounds of it, main timeline Piccolo is a God, because, yeah, he's dead.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
While ki compresses time for you, you still have to physically move, and ki users seem to do it the way normal people would, not by using ki telekinesis to push their bodies around or something. I think the extra muscle slows you down as much because it makes you musclebound and inflexible than anything else.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I think it's moving those few extra kilos at the same speeds as before that's relevant, given that that's a significant amount of extra weight compared to their arm/leg weight.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Maybe the muscles are a symptom of deeper problems like ki blockage or something. It doesn't really matter. What matters is the results.
Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
They're not just muscle, they're also ki. So it's like having to physically lug around your reserve of ki while you fight.
meanwhile, FPSS have enough control to both make things more evenly distributed and better compressed.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Generally reasonable. And again, this is all sort of deriving from an abstracted concept of power/strength vs speed.
Poptart has ruled that USSJ is slower than FPSSJ, even if it theoretically hits harder. I think trying to quibble details of "but PHYSICS says!" is....unhelpful!
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Hm. Maybe we should try having Kakara learn to use Ki TK to move herself around while at high PL, then?
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Limited utility, likely doesn't increase speed much (instead of "think then move" you have to "think to move via thinking"), it's less instinctive, you're still moving extra bulk so you're likely cutting your energy stamina by a non-negligible margin...
Like, I get that folks want to Optimize, but can we maybe accept that sometimes there are just tradeoffs for things?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
It's only not instinctive until it is instinctive. That's, uh. What training does.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
That's not an actual argument against 'less instinctive'.
Like, if it takes ten hours of training to get used to moving without thought and a hundred to get used to telekinetically moving without thought, as a simplified example, that still means it takes more training effort, at which point you have to answer if it's really worth it, aside any other trade offs.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I mean, there's only so much that can be done to increase one's effective-power-level. And Kakara is a Ki control prodigy, so this plays to her strengths.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
...
No. You have provided an argument against exactly one of KnightDisciple's points;
Meanwhile, for increasing our ability to win a fight, here's our short list, off the top of my head;
- Train our style of choice to at least Expert for style bonuses.
- Train all involved skills to at least talented. Ideally, start pushing up towards Elite if we really need to fight harder.
- Learn Jaffur's central trick, and master it as much as feasible.
- Learn Ki Overcharge, and also get good at it.
- Add Kaio-ken, which is a known way to breach the power level caps, with admittedly difficulty.
- If at all possible, learn to combine those last three together.
- Learn combat relevant Seer stuff.
Meanwhile, you want us to look into an unproven thing that probably has meaningful disadvantages if it can even be done... Because... There's 'only so much we can do'?
Like, we just found out about Ki Overcharge. It's entirely possible that, by the time the short list is addressed, we will have picked up another priority learning thing, or we will find ourselves launched to super saiyan 2 and now need to/be able to do direct power training again.
And that's ignoring that we are the diplomat type, not a fight specialist- if and when we get Jaffur unsealed, we'll be one of five super saiyans, if all goes well, and Maya shows no signs of slowing down.
We are one of the Exiles strongest fighters. We are not the Exiles strongest fighter, and all of the others are currently friendly to us. We do not need to eke out every tiny fight advantage, no matter the cost.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
That is what I said. Not "ability to win a fight". When I say "effective power level", I mean "speed and strength for power level X" not "ability to use power level X to win a fight".
And I disagree with the premises of a lot you've said here, particularly that we shouldn't look to eke every combat advantage we can out. You know what being lazy with that kind of thing leads to?
Jaffur getting sealed. Our people eradicated by a dragon because we were too slow with with our spirit bomb. Dandeer getting off a spell that kills us because we weren't aware enough. The Enemy realizing where we are because we have to go SS2 to deal with some threat.
Even so small an increase in speed as 2% would be enough to dodge attacks that we just couldn't, and I find it to be silly that Kakara couldn't do five minutes (or less, at PL-augmented temporal distortion) worth of testing to see if she can use her Ki TK to supplement her movement. If she doesn't think it's possible on first glance? Fine, whatever, we can look into it once we've exhausted other forms of improvement.
Something else strongly worth noting is that, honestly, with Perfect Multiform, Ki TK assisted movement is all the more useful; having other bodies that can use it in real time to assist your movement would be great.
Oh, also, magic-based paralytics would be rendered, to greater or lesser extent, ineffective.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Right, because a paralysis based on the conceptual application of "you cannot move" is going to be easily and totally superseded by "but I used my brain to move!"?
Look, I get that this is an interesting concept, I'm just trying to point out (and I think Terrabrand is too) that this isn't necessarily the sort of thing to bear fruit.
I'm also, again, going back to the fact that this feels a lot like "something for nothing"; I'm not hearing a described downside (unlike Overcharge, Kaoi-Ken, or Jaffur Style), just "let's go USSJ and then use TK to move faster". (Which begs the question of why not use Ki TK to boost speed when not USSJ?)
I'm not 100% opposed to the idea, but it's not really something I feel convinced to prioritize.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I'm not sure what gave you the idea that I wanted to drop everything and do it?