Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
He didn't get Vegeta'd or Krillen'd.
Everyone speaks of Kaio-Ken of this 'I win' button, but back in Z it was more like a 'Gonna fuck myself up so I don't die' button
Dragon Ball: After the End
He didn't get Vegeta'd or Krillen'd.
Everyone speaks of Kaio-Ken of this 'I win' button, but back in Z it was more like a 'Gonna fuck myself up so I don't die' button
He was at 5 million, and the Super Saiyan boost gave him an additional 145 million. Frieza, at FP, has 120 million.
You mean like all the times he used it on Namek and more recently?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Probably situational. One thing about which you're certain is that it seems to drain faster, and Tabe had nothing left in the tank afterwards. Kaio-ken, despite the self-injury, seems more stable on that axis.So the Ki Overcharge skill seems to be better then kaioken in every way. Am I right in this thinking?
Jaffur is going to be upset that he spent so much effort on a now obsolete skill.
Never seen it. The metaphor just seemed to make sense.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I don't think so. Ki overcharge burns you out fast. It doesn't hurt you the way Kaio-Ken does, but it burns you out fast and there doesn't seem to be anything you can do to stop it from doing that.So the Ki Overcharge skill seems to be better then kaioken in every way. Am I right in this thinking?
Jaffur is going to be upset that he spent so much effort on a now obsolete skill.
So I'm guessing that Kaio-Ken lasts longer but hurts more, and is more likely to let you hang in there by sheer willpower and tenacity. While Overcharge is safer, but when you're out of power you are OUT.
Remember, he was at like 180,000 when he fought Captain Ginyu, and while I know he got a zenkai out of that fight, I doubt he was above single digit millions when he came out of it.
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
Do note that if it works properly, Kaioken doesn't have to hurt you. It's just a much more difficult technique.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I don't think the Exiles have that one though. I'd guess it's an Elite talent in this system.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
IIRC, kaio-ken hurts you less when you use lower multipliers and when your starting PL is lower.
Kaio-ken x 1 at 10,000 is a lot less painful than it at 1,000,000 and that's a lot less painful and self-destructive than it at x10 at any level.
Overcharge is a completely different beast.
Kaio-ken x 1 at 10,000 is a lot less painful than it at 1,000,000 and that's a lot less painful and self-destructive than it at x10 at any level.
Overcharge is a completely different beast.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
Kaioken also has the potential to last more time. Ki overcharge drains you faster so the fighting lasts less but while you could probably say the same about kaioken from how it hurts you at lower levels, the more skilled you grow at it the more you can safely boost. For example, back when Goku was fighting against Frieza in Namek, all the time he was fighting that he was not a super saiyan he was fighting at kaioken x10, barring the time he was charging genkidama and a brief burst of kaioken times 20.
Kaioken gives you PL and affects stamina less but you would have to roll to maintain it and avoid injury. The greater you skill level with it, the more of a burst you can handle with a lesser chance of hurting yourself but it also has the disadvantage that the bigger the absolute increase of PL is, the bigger the chance of damage so as you increase your normal PL you must also increase your skill with kaioken or use lower multipliers when using it.
Overcharge, on the other hand, probably has a lot less risk of injuring yourself and likely would either allow its user with bigger PL or would not have that issue at all, which means that as a flat increase of power for a SS it would be better. It should also give a bigger comparable increase than kaioken when they are both at low levels. However, the comparison with the hose shows that it uses power that is already there so the more power you draw, the less time you can fight. At higher levels it probably lets you play with the parameters so that the increase is bigger according to your level of skill but that wouldn't change the fact that the more power you draw, the faster you tire.
If you are not sure you can finish the fight in one move then kaioken is likely the better opton while overcharge is better as a triumph card or when you just need to fight for a moment (for a distraction or a single ki attack). The higher your PL, overcharge is probably going to let you go higher than kaioken since the later hurts you from the absolute increase, unless you are oozaru in which case kaioken is probably better since you can handle bigger multipliers.
Of course, the main advantage of Overcharge is the stealth. On mastery, it might allow us to fight for prolongued periods of time at a low PL like 1M but performing several times higher. I think the most tempting part of it is the possibility of letting you fight while masking your power level like Jaffur's trick though unlike Jaffur's trick you likely don't need unholy amounts of control not to blow yourself up.
Kaioken gives you PL and affects stamina less but you would have to roll to maintain it and avoid injury. The greater you skill level with it, the more of a burst you can handle with a lesser chance of hurting yourself but it also has the disadvantage that the bigger the absolute increase of PL is, the bigger the chance of damage so as you increase your normal PL you must also increase your skill with kaioken or use lower multipliers when using it.
Overcharge, on the other hand, probably has a lot less risk of injuring yourself and likely would either allow its user with bigger PL or would not have that issue at all, which means that as a flat increase of power for a SS it would be better. It should also give a bigger comparable increase than kaioken when they are both at low levels. However, the comparison with the hose shows that it uses power that is already there so the more power you draw, the less time you can fight. At higher levels it probably lets you play with the parameters so that the increase is bigger according to your level of skill but that wouldn't change the fact that the more power you draw, the faster you tire.
If you are not sure you can finish the fight in one move then kaioken is likely the better opton while overcharge is better as a triumph card or when you just need to fight for a moment (for a distraction or a single ki attack). The higher your PL, overcharge is probably going to let you go higher than kaioken since the later hurts you from the absolute increase, unless you are oozaru in which case kaioken is probably better since you can handle bigger multipliers.
Of course, the main advantage of Overcharge is the stealth. On mastery, it might allow us to fight for prolongued periods of time at a low PL like 1M but performing several times higher. I think the most tempting part of it is the possibility of letting you fight while masking your power level like Jaffur's trick though unlike Jaffur's trick you likely don't need unholy amounts of control not to blow yourself up.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the effectiveness that Tabe demonstrated would not be unbelievable if he was using Kaioken, so the reaction seemed a little harsh (other than the fact that the Ki overcharge ability appears to be more compatible with super saiyan...).
So in that metaphor, Crane boosting would be changing the size of the nozzle or something?
What Tabe could do in a few years after getting an adequate mastery of Kaioken with that would be enough that the dissemination of something like that could be enough to topple the houses. But also Jaffur's trick, if stackable with Kaioken and Ki overcharge, could easily mess up everything.
So in that metaphor, Crane boosting would be changing the size of the nozzle or something?
What Tabe could do in a few years after getting an adequate mastery of Kaioken with that would be enough that the dissemination of something like that could be enough to topple the houses. But also Jaffur's trick, if stackable with Kaioken and Ki overcharge, could easily mess up everything.
Why would you look at that and think "Bleach"? It's a fair basic, simple concept, that has appeared in many, many series.
In fact, what's with your constant references to Bleach in this?
- Location
- Australia
I guess I just haven't watched that many series then. Bleach is the only one I've seen it in.
I just keep seeing similarities, that's all.
Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
Because Kaoiken is a known factor, this isn't. Made worse by the fact that it let's you hit harder without chancing your PL.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Because it's an entirely unknown method for matching the performance of a super-saiyan.
Literally any method of doing that, probably including Kaio-Ken mastery, puts you on the Exiles' equivalent of a terror watch list, at best. Remember that the entire structure of Exile government is based on the royals' ability to use super-saiyan power to blitz any plausible opponent, and on absolute enforcement of a total ban on super-saiyan status for anyone but the royals.
Subvert that and you basically open them up to anarchy. Specifically, anarchy in which the "war of all against all" is being waged by entities capable of shattering the planet and killing everyone, not just on purpose but by not being careful enough.
So Tabe has basically done the equivalent of "hey, you can build a nuclear bomb in your basement with this One Neat Trick!" Given that the Exile community is a monarchy whose monopoly on the equivalent of nuclear bombs is the main basis of its power... It would not be surprising to have the monarch basically say to Tabe something like "Oh, really? How interesting. BLAM" and blow his brains out.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
And one developed in secret. He sprung this out of nowhere- if House Stauber was rebelliously inclined, the entire House could have sprung this at once, having developed a way to threaten the lords in total secrecy.
If he'd been researching this with the Lord's prior awareness, it'd be different. He hadn't.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Also if this works at higher power levels then it can be used by Super Saiyan rebellions. Kaioken can't really.
Cadis
Proud Capoeria Angola Quintal Capoerista
- Location
- United States
@PoptartProdigy
so this bit of lore here is partially inaccurate:
The ascended form doesn't have speed penalties; the increase in muscle mass isn't significant enough. It's only the Ultimate form that comes with noticeable speed penalties.
so this bit of lore here is partially inaccurate:
Talt rebellion said:
The ascended form doesn't have speed penalties; the increase in muscle mass isn't significant enough. It's only the Ultimate form that comes with noticeable speed penalties.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
While the Ascended form is faster, stronger, etc. than base as you would expect of a normal, improved transformation, my read on the situation is not that it is without speed penalties.
The Ascended form achieves its power up, as does the Ultimate form, in tandem with an increase in muscle mass. According to the wiki:
While this at the first read suggests that the form increases speed exactly as a standard transformation of like power, a second read shows otherwise: the text of the entry says that the form allows the (here masculine) saiyan to retain his agility and coordination. I take this to mean that the form merely fails to slow the user down from their state prior to transformation. However, the quote above is not proof in support of that position, but rather merely the conspicuous absence of proof against. I take it not as the foundation of my argument, but as a supporting point to the following chain of logic.
The Ascended form increases muscle mass; this is beyond dispute. Vegeta, while using it, looks like a professional body builder. While the Ascended form is, as mentioned above, sufficiently efficient as to not actively rob the user of speed, the fact of the matter is that this would be in spite of the additional muscle rather than because of it. The muscle inescapably presents additional mass to move and represents additional flexibility lost (professional body builders not being precisely renowned for their sit-and-reach scores). While power level clearly rises enough to counteract this deficiency, that does not mean that muscle mass simply goes away.
Consider the contrasting example of, for instance, a full-power super saiyan. A FPSSJ at 500 million is at 500 million from ki alone; their muscle definition does not change from the moment they turn super saiyan to the moment they hit 1.125 billion. An ASSJ at 500 million is at 500 million as well, but in addition to 500 million from ki is also carrying enough muscle mass to shame Arnold Schwarzenegger. Now, 500 million is 500 million, but that muscle mass still needs to be moved, and it falls on the 500 million to do it. Contrast the FPSSJ, who has all of the power and none of the muscle mass. We have, in short, a 500 kg, 500 horsepower engine, vs. a 600 kg, 500 horsepower engine. Both put out the same amount of energy, but the lighter engine is going to be better in practice regardless due to having to lug around less of its own weight, even though the heavier one definitely performs better than a 500 kg, 200 horsepower engine.
(The writer disclaims any actual knowledge that would allow them to present more accurate engine statistics, having attended a liberal arts college and majored in English. It is a vague metaphor and not intended for exact verisimilitude.)
- Location
- Australia
This is also why training weights continue to be effective no matter what your power level is. If you weigh 100 kg and you put on 100 kg worth of weights, you're still doubling the effort it takes to do anything physical no matter what your power level is.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
To an extent, although ki does fudge the scale a bit. But the principle is broadly correct, yes.
Okibruez
(Verified Mid-Boss)
- Location
- Dreams
Basically, as I read it: Overcharge let's you spend power to boost power level, on a 1-to-1 basis.
Kaio Ken let's you take damage over time to boost power level.
Overcharge is less risky, but you run out of energy faster. If you can overwhelm your opponent quickly with the power boost, it's a great power up.
Kaio Ken is higher risk, but longer duration. If you need a power boost against someone that has some serious durability and power, this is typically better.
Kaio Ken let's you take damage over time to boost power level.
Overcharge is less risky, but you run out of energy faster. If you can overwhelm your opponent quickly with the power boost, it's a great power up.
Kaio Ken is higher risk, but longer duration. If you need a power boost against someone that has some serious durability and power, this is typically better.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
Pretty much this. Another way to look at it is that, if your opponent's PL is a lot higher than yours, then unless you can surpass him by an overwhelming amount with Overcharge then Kaioken is better.
Take a normal saiyan versus a new super saiyan. The normal saiyan would have 15M PL and the super saiyan 150M. Overcharge might let the normal saiyan fight at 150M for a few seconds while kaioken times 10 would in theory let him fight for longer. Of course, this is assuming that the guy can manage a kaioken times 10, which is close to mastery of an already hard to learn technique.
Then imagine the super saiyan trained a bit and proposed to fight in just his base form. Make the fight 15M vs 30M. Now, in this case, Overcharge might let him overpower him by a lot for a few seconds (more than enough to win) or fight him on equal grounds for long enough to maybe win and not end completely wiped out. Or fight him at 45M and beat him fast enough not to run out of energy by the overcharge. Of course, the guy who knows kaioken can easily do the same.
The main difference is that kaioken is a hard technique to learn. We don't know how hard overcharge is but from Tabe's comments it is probably easier than kaioken, which would be the main reason to train it instead, besides fighting at a higher level than can be sensed.
Of course, Tabe himself admitted he is not very good at it yet, so it might be possible that at higher levels you can increase the time you can use it if there is some ki that is wasted by the technique at novice levels. This is really just speculation until we see a high level overcharge.
Also, I wonder who will train in Tabe's trick? I mean, I would say dad but he has his duties as a lord to worry about too. It would probably be grandma though I am darkly amused at the idea of Gold Man Genocide turning up at Tabe's door to ask about his trick to fight super saiyans.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Anyone's Ki can be dynamite if they've got moves like this.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
So if Ki Overcharge is a method to increase our effective PL at the expense of reduced endurance, does this make our instantaneous-USSJ research idea obsolete before we even tried it? It was always likely to be increased damage in exchange for reduced stamina, so unless it turned out not to meaningfully affect our endurance after all it would basically do the same thing as Ki Overcharge. Using both at the same time is unlikely to be very viable unless you can literally take out your foe in one hit, because there's only so much you can stack up endurance debuffs before you hit "crippling" anyway. Though maybe the increased stamina of Oozaru form might give you a second punch?
I suppose it's possible split-second-USSJ wouldn't affect our endurance - we never tried it, after all - but it seems fairly unlikely. I'd imagine spending a research action on it would confirm it either way.
I suppose it's possible split-second-USSJ wouldn't affect our endurance - we never tried it, after all - but it seems fairly unlikely. I'd imagine spending a research action on it would confirm it either way.
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