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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Cariyaga said:
That is what I said. Not "ability to win a fight". When I say "effective power level", I mean "speed and strength for power level X" not "ability to use power level X to win a fight".
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... I listed three priority items that, per se, increase effective power level. Furthermore, with the Alien Invasion we saw that being actually combat competent can beat a fairly huge level of power level difference, so this is a fallacious divide- you imply being a better fighter isn't able to beat out a 2% speed advantage, when we saw in this tournament a skilled fighter able to beat other skilled fighters at five times her power level.

Skill matters.

Cariyaga said:
And I disagree with the premises of a lot you've said here, particularly that we shouldn't look to eke every combat advantage we can out. You know what being lazy with that kind of thing leads to?
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:facepalm: You disagree with a strawman. I just goddamn said I don't see it because there are so many other priority items ahead of it and we might be getting even more by the time we clear out our backlog.

You know what being lazy with the social leads to? Super Saiyan rebellions. Our Saiyan Troops in the war doing worse because rather than command training, we insisted on raising our power level, effectively, when we usually can't use our power level to it's limits. Being enemies with one or more of the other Super Saiyans.

Calling my 'there are other competing priorities' argument laziness is offensive bullshit and naïve stupidity at the same time. In fact, let me break down the flaws in your arguments;

  • Jaffur got sealed because Berra is more than two decades our senior and was a Full Power Super Saiyan when we were freshly a SSJ at all. There is no feasible amount of training we could have written in to avert the sealing. We maybe could have averted it if we had managed to not get bad luck with IT results, but being stronger wouldn't have helped. Being more socially adept to convince Berra 'don't do this', meanwhile, would have prevented the sealing outright. Additionally, we already have the fighting capacity to get Jaffur unsealed, and are waiting on the social capacity to do so without destroying society.
  • Us being stronger would help with the dragon, yes. You know what would help more? If we'd social game'd to the point of having Jaffur unsealed already. Fifth full power super saiyan, with fighting skills in excess of anything we could have developed.
  • Dandeer is somebody that we could have had not be our enemy. Those bridges are burned, by and large, but more effective social results would obviate the need to worry about getting blindsided by a spell. Being stronger might not even help, since magic can very blatantly beat essentially arbitrary power levels used well.
  • The Enemy? Once more, we are not the only super saiyan. Any increase in our personal fighting ability is unlikely to be equivalently valuable to keeping the peace among the current super saiyan roster. Furthermore, social actions could, conceivably, down the line enable us to increase the total number of friendly super saiyans, get the ward strength up so we can train in eg Golden Oozaru more effectively, etc.
You are basically acting like if Kakara doesn't facepunch people herself it's worthless. My entire argument is twofold;

  1. We already have a load of immediate promising priorities for training.
  2. Effective social actions gets us the ability to count on allies to facepunch people for us, allies who are in fact our better in the art of facepunching, while also reducing the number of enemies needing facepunching.
Treating making sure Exile society doesn't implode or explode, making sure our allies remain friendly to us and each other, getting enemies to stand down, getting potential enemies to never be enemies, keeping current enemies too socially weak to act, and so on, as laziness is insanity.
 
Terrabrand said:
:facepalm: You disagree with a strawman. I just goddamn said I don't see it because there are so many other priority items ahead of it and we might be getting even more by the time we clear out our backlog.
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Please do not assume I am strawmanning you. I missed the last part of this quote: "We do not need to eke out every tiny fight advantage, no matter the cost." Thank you for giving me cause to look back and realize that I misinterpretted that.
 
A thought, inspired by the recent dialogue.

It is very possible to honestly misinterpret a debating opponent's position, in such a way that one believes they are adopting a weakened "straw version" of their true opinions.

Consequently, it is very possible to create a counter-strawman argument, that is aimed at a straw version of the original argument... All the while debating in good faith. Because 'good faith' is not the same as 'guaranteed factual accuracy.'

Consequently, "You're strawmanning me" should not be wielded against other people as an insult. Even if it is true, it is not an insult, any more than "you took a wrong turn on the highway" is an insult. It only becomes a form of condemnation when we accept as a given that it is being done deliberately, which is often not true. There should be a way to say "you are attacking a strawman" and neither intend nor offer insult to the party one says the words to.

This is something I need to remember in the future.

[light bulb goes on over head]
 
That kid needs to be tested for sorcerous potential.



Cariyaga said:
Hm. Maybe we should try having Kakara learn to use Ki TK to move herself around while at high PL, then?
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In story canon they already incorporate something similar into their movements just to avoid leaving a trail of impact-induced fission explosions every time they slam around at Mach umptillion inside the atmosphere.
 
Terrabrand said:
... :facepalm:

No. You have provided an argument against exactly one of KnightDisciple's points;



Meanwhile, for increasing our ability to win a fight, here's our short list, off the top of my head;

  • Train our style of choice to at least Expert for style bonuses.
  • Train all involved skills to at least talented. Ideally, start pushing up towards Elite if we really need to fight harder.
  • Learn Jaffur's central trick, and master it as much as feasible.
  • Learn Ki Overcharge, and also get good at it.
  • Add Kaio-ken, which is a known way to breach the power level caps, with admittedly difficulty.
  • If at all possible, learn to combine those last three together.
  • Learn combat relevant Seer stuff.
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You missed Perfect Multiform, which as a permanently scaling 300% increase in personal fightiness should be pretty near the top.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Nope, apparently not. We've had this discussion before.

I agree it doesn't line up with every other skill in the game, but that's how it is.
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Because Perfect Multiform giving each clone 100% Power is already a huge freaking deal.
Wanting yet another body out of it should be reserved for someone who is so good at Multiform, they ARE The Bar.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
You missed Perfect Multiform, which as a permanently scaling 300% increase in personal fightiness should be pretty near the top.
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There's a catch.

It's been confirmed that Perfect Multiform burns through your energy reserves faster- there's a stamina cost for running four full-power bodies. As such, it's effectively a way to sacrifice endurance to hit harder in the short term... which means it competes directly in the same niche as Tabe Stauber's overdrive trick. There are advantages and disadvantages to both the competing techniques, and they have different synergies.

Perfect Multiform synergizes better with Team Fighting, may be better at handling a bunch of individually weaker opponents (e.g. a super-saiyan revolt), or dealing with problems happening in several places at once.

Overdrive synergizes better with Crowd Fighting and Dueling, and can 'punch up' a greater distance- because four PL 1 billion multiform clones won't be able to fight on equal terms against a PL 4 billion opponent, they'll be too sluggish and squishy. Whereas a PL 1 billion fighter using Overdrive x4 would be able to fight on equal terms, at least briefly.

But on some level, they're different ways of doing the same thing: Punch Good, but at the expense of not being able to keep it up for very long.

I want to succeed in researching Perfect Multiform on general principles, even if it's suboptimal... but we may well find that Tabe's trick works better than Perfect Multiform for its originally envisioned purpose of fighting more powerful opponents by singlehandedly outnumbering them.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
There's a catch.

It's been confirmed that Perfect Multiform burns through your energy reserves faster- there's a stamina cost for running four full-power bodies. As such, it's effectively a way to sacrifice endurance to hit harder in the short term... which means it competes directly in the same niche as Tabe Stauber's overdrive trick. There are advantages and disadvantages to both the competing techniques, and they have different synergies.

Perfect Multiform synergizes better with Team Fighting, may be better at handling a bunch of individually weaker opponents (e.g. a super-saiyan revolt), or dealing with problems happening in several places at once.

Overdrive synergizes better with Crowd Fighting and Dueling, and can 'punch up' a greater distance- because four PL 1 billion multiform clones won't be able to fight on equal terms against a PL 4 billion opponent, they'll be too sluggish and squishy. Whereas a PL 1 billion fighter using Overdrive x4 would be able to fight on equal terms, at least briefly.

But on some level, they're different ways of doing the same thing: Punch Good, but at the expense of not being able to keep it up for very long.

I want to succeed in researching Perfect Multiform on general principles, even if it's suboptimal... but we may well find that Tabe's trick works better than Perfect Multiform for its originally envisioned purpose of fighting more powerful opponents by singlehandedly outnumbering them.
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Or we can do both and burn through our reserves extra doubleplus fast :D
 
Simon_Jester said:
There's a catch.

It's been confirmed that Perfect Multiform burns through your energy reserves faster- there's a stamina cost for running four full-power bodies. As such, it's effectively a way to sacrifice endurance to hit harder in the short term... which means it competes directly in the same niche as Tabe Stauber's overdrive trick. There are advantages and disadvantages to both the competing techniques, and they have different synergies.

Perfect Multiform synergizes better with Team Fighting, may be better at handling a bunch of individually weaker opponents (e.g. a super-saiyan revolt), or dealing with problems happening in several places at once.

Overdrive synergizes better with Crowd Fighting and Dueling, and can 'punch up' a greater distance- because four PL 1 billion multiform clones won't be able to fight on equal terms against a PL 4 billion opponent, they'll be too sluggish and squishy. Whereas a PL 1 billion fighter using Overdrive x4 would be able to fight on equal terms, at least briefly.

But on some level, they're different ways of doing the same thing: Punch Good, but at the expense of not being able to keep it up for very long.

I want to succeed in researching Perfect Multiform on general principles, even if it's suboptimal... but we may well find that Tabe's trick works better than Perfect Multiform for its originally envisioned purpose of fighting more powerful opponents by singlehandedly outnumbering them.
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Well, going for an extra clone rather than Perfect Multiform gives us an extra action, which has it's own advantages.
 
Cariyaga said:
Or we can do both and burn through our reserves extra doubleplus fast :D
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Stacking multiple "endurance burnout" techinques sounds pretty reckless. I suspect you'd end up in a situation where it basically comes down to "roll the dice ONCE on ending the fight with a single blow, or get ripped to shreds and the quest comes to a Bad End." There are very few situations where that's a good idea.

Quest said:
Well, going for an extra clone rather than Perfect Multiform gives us an extra action, which has it's own advantages.
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Oooooooh...
 
Simon_Jester said:
Stacking multiple "endurance burnout" techinques sounds pretty reckless. I suspect you'd end up in a situation where it basically comes down to "roll the dice ONCE on ending the fight with a single blow, or get ripped to shreds and the quest comes to a Bad End." There are very few situations where that's a good idea.
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Oh, it's okay. We can use Kaio Ken too. (what do you mean that's not helping???)
 
Speaking of power draining how much of the knowledge of how to make androids was A, recovered and B, Remembered.

infinite energy model like 18 and 17 who due to being mostly made out of bio-organic can get stronger if they train don't need to eat(need to hydrate though) and age slower due to their cells deteriorating slower. Though we don't know if they have a limit on how much energy they can use except what their bodies can handle.

This is an actual Super thing in the manga 17 has become strong enough through training to overwhelm SS2 and match SS3 Goku. all without being sensed through KI because he is an android
 
Quest said:
Well, going for an extra clone rather than Perfect Multiform gives us an extra action, which has it's own advantages.
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We can't really research that to unlock the elite talent the same way we can with PM though.

Simon_Jester said:
It's been confirmed that Perfect Multiform burns through your energy reserves faster- there's a stamina cost for running four full-power bodies. As such, it's effectively a way to sacrifice endurance to hit harder in the short term... which means it competes directly in the same niche as Tabe Stauber's overdrive trick. There are advantages and disadvantages to both the competing techniques, and they have different synergies.
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Only if Tabe's trick scales perfectly for Super Saiyans, which may not be a given. (I would be surprised if got an effective 10x Power boost, even if we only got a 10th of the time - that's definitely strong enough to KO an opponent of roughly equal PL extremely quickly, if not with one punch.
 
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Hm. I wonder if we could convince Berra to pardon the Senzu clan in exchange for their help (in the form of Senzu beans) with the dragon?
 
I think I suggested something along those lines. The biggest question is, how are our senzu bean reserves looking right now? I mean, if Berra's already set aside fifty beans from the Strategic Bean Reserve for this fight, it'd be kind of redundant. Because if we get knocked down hard enough to need a senzu a dozen times each, the dragon will have already killed us all.

Also, hm. We might want to both research Perfect Multiform as a separate project, and master Tien Style. For example, the more we master the Kikoho, the more effectively we can use it to "punch up" without killing ourselves. The Dodonpa is a very impressive ray attack that is badly underutilized in my opinion, and I could totally see us developing it to Elite and becoming a master of sniping with it. Et cetera.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I think I suggested something along those lines. The biggest question is, how are our senzu bean reserves looking right now? I mean, if Berra's already set aside fifty beans from the Strategic Bean Reserve for this fight, it'd be kind of redundant. Because if we get knocked down hard enough to need a senzu a dozen times each, the dragon will have already killed us all.

Also, hm. We might want to both research Perfect Multiform as a separate project, and master Tien Style. For example, the more we master the Kikoho, the more effectively we can use it to "punch up" without killing ourselves. The Dodonpa is a very impressive ray attack that is badly underutilized in my opinion, and I could totally see us developing it to Elite and becoming a master of sniping with it. Et cetera.
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Is Dodonpa nonlethal-capable?
 
Anyway, it sounds as if Tabe figured out how to increase the pressure on the system, which matches up with Jaron saying that Jaffur nearly blew himself up during development. Jaffur's approach sounds more like a phase change, which matches speculation about god ki.

Also, holy crap, remote mind delve! He could use that at any time and the target wouldn't even know.
 
Lailoken said:
Anyway, it sounds as if Tabe figured out how to increase the pressure on the system, which matches up with Jaron saying that Jaffur nearly blew himself up during development. Jaffur's approach sounds more like a phase change, which matches speculation about god ki.

Also, holy crap, remote mind delve! He could use that at any time and the target wouldn't even know.
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He is very much better at Intrigue than us... is it possible that he knows about the conspiracy re: Jaffur and agrees with it?
 
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