- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Holy shit the irony, it burns.
Dragon Ball: After the End
KnightDisciple
Brotherhood. Unity. Peace.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
....So your response is more condescension?
KnightDisciple
Brotherhood. Unity. Peace.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
[X] I'd rather sit with my family
Hadn't voted yet. I'm done arguing and being talked down to for the night.
Hadn't voted yet. I'm done arguing and being talked down to for the night.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
He's just following your lead here. This is how you entered the conversation:
No one had said anything to you before you started with one of the most condescending posts I've seen on SV. Don't get mad he's responding in kind, he hasn't nearly climbed to your lofty heights here.
EDIT: Missed a quote.
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KnightDisciple
Brotherhood. Unity. Peace.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
I said I'm done for the night. I exercised my vote in this thread. I'm attempting to keep things from escalating further, if that isn't clear. Please let's drop this for now. It's clear there is sharp disagreement going on.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I am saying that there is a sense of "split attention" that is both coherent and applicable. Doing multiform to do multiple things at once does divide your attention. Your assertion that claims to that effect, and the emotional responses generated by feeling such a state of affairs is occuring, are just objectively wrong, is a false assertion.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I think we all need to take this back a hefty notch, everybody. Check your energy levels, check your moods, and take a moment to read over your posts and consider whether or not it's a good idea to post them. Come on. Just take a step back.
You actually are not capable of keeping it up 24/7.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
The term "split" implies that the hypothetical offended party is in some way recieving less attention than they otherwise would. It is for this reason that offense might be taken. As this is not the case, arguments in favour of it being offensive basically boil down to "if you had less time, you might not bother with me" in which case it's purely an ego trip on the part of the offended party, and not our fault. If someone is honestly so bothered by the possibility that non-multiforming Kakara might not have time for them they'd take offense, that's frankly ridiculous and not worth bothering with.
Is this a sufficient explanation of my position, or have I misunderstood the ramifications of "splitting?" (Though I don't see the social distinction between multiplying and an obscure
EDIT: Phones are hard to type on.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Okay, I'm going to try NOT to be hostile about this.
...
If someone really loves you, then as a general rule, it'll show, and you will know the answer to that question is yes.
Look, I'm not asking you to be totally convinced by what I'm saying. But I think it's fair to suggest that you take this seriously, and not just me being stupid and illogical. People have emotional concerns. Emotions exist, they are relevant. How others think and feel matters, even when they are wrong according to the paradigm you have constructed for yourself using some combination of objective facts and the weighting you assign to the importance of those facts.
Kakara is the sort of character who accepts that, because she has empathy. A different character might not give a shit, but it'd be a pretty big jump for Kakara to not care.
Because of that complexity, how other people model a situation matters. Multiform raises a host of philosophical and personal questions. I don't think you can just expect everyone around Kakara to completely wave them off. Or to automatically be comfortable with the specific answer to those questions that is maximally convenient for Kakara.
I don't think we can justly tell other people that whatever this thing is, that is clearly divided up among the Kakaras, it isn't important. Given that it has very real concrete effects on our interactions with the physical universe, it exists and is not just a figment of an irrational complainer's imagination. Maybe it's not important in an objective sense. Maybe it is. Maybe that's a matter of opinion that cannot easily be settled without spending thousands of man-hours discussing the philosophy of Multiform.
But laughing it off as 'objectively irrelevant' after a short amount of thought strikes me as unfair.
If you give people the brush-off or act as if they're in second or third place to you consistently enough, they will pull away from you- because very few people like to be on the low end of a mismatch in importance like that.
...
Yes, yes you might.
If someone really loves you, then as a general rule, it'll show, and you will know the answer to that question is yes.
Look, I'm not asking you to be totally convinced by what I'm saying. But I think it's fair to suggest that you take this seriously, and not just me being stupid and illogical. People have emotional concerns. Emotions exist, they are relevant. How others think and feel matters, even when they are wrong according to the paradigm you have constructed for yourself using some combination of objective facts and the weighting you assign to the importance of those facts.
Kakara is the sort of character who accepts that, because she has empathy. A different character might not give a shit, but it'd be a pretty big jump for Kakara to not care.
Building stable, healthy, long-term relationships with people involves a lot of things. Some of those things are significantly more complicated than basic arithmetic. If it were as easy as basic arithmetic, everyone could do it. But it's not.
Because of that complexity, how other people model a situation matters. Multiform raises a host of philosophical and personal questions. I don't think you can just expect everyone around Kakara to completely wave them off. Or to automatically be comfortable with the specific answer to those questions that is maximally convenient for Kakara.
What I'd like to do is at least make sure we're willing to accept that sometimes, for some things, Kakara may just need to be one person at a time for certain purposes. Even for reasons other than fatigue and mechanical optimization. Say, for the sake of her own sanity, or for the sake of other people's happiness. Maybe today isn't that day, but we should at least not react to the prospect with scornful laughter.
And yet very plainly something is divided up among the Kakaras. That is just as much an objective fact as anything you've said. There are reasons that in the normal course of things our power level is divided up. Why even with Perfect Multiform, we can operate all clones at full power but (Poptart has said) at the cost of burning more energy than normal. Why we can't Multiform to create multiple shades during mind projection. Why (Poptart has, I believe, said, but I could be wrong about this last) Multiform clones cannot fuse to create a single being more powerful than the original despite the way fusions normally work.
I don't think we can justly tell other people that whatever this thing is, that is clearly divided up among the Kakaras, it isn't important. Given that it has very real concrete effects on our interactions with the physical universe, it exists and is not just a figment of an irrational complainer's imagination. Maybe it's not important in an objective sense. Maybe it is. Maybe that's a matter of opinion that cannot easily be settled without spending thousands of man-hours discussing the philosophy of Multiform.
But laughing it off as 'objectively irrelevant' after a short amount of thought strikes me as unfair.
Uh... if we're using it heavily enough, it becomes a very well justified concern. And in general, the important people in your life will have a reasonable right to be assured that they're important to you- or rather, that they are as important to you as you are to them.
If you give people the brush-off or act as if they're in second or third place to you consistently enough, they will pull away from you- because very few people like to be on the low end of a mismatch in importance like that.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I'm on my phone so apologies if I miss something.
I've seen no evidence to support the idea that anything not related to obscure Seer nonsense and Power Levels gets split, and certainly nothing relevant to talking/spending time with people.
If you know someone would spend time with you if they had only 8 hours a day, why is that more obvious than someone with 30 hours a day dropping to 24?
We already don't spend 24 hours a day in MF. I ballparked 6, but would frankly not be at all surprised to discover it was less.
I strongly disagree that saying "I don't consider you to be worth more than literally 3 other people put together" is implying they're second or third best. Anyone who might reasonably expect to outweigh the conpetition by that much should be pretty secure that they're at least number 1, but we aren't in a relationship right now anyway.
I'm not saying people might not be uncomfortable by how the existence of multiform highlights the possibility that they aren't someone's number one priority, I'm saying that someone who understands how it works should realise that it's not actually an issue except in their head, and keep it to themselves, the same way they would for some other mildly uncomfortable thought, like having a different religion.
Finally, this is all only really relevant for the hypothetical person we would pick without MF. The other 2/3/4 would feel even less appreciated if we didn't have time for them at all.
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- Location
- Australia
When Kakara spends time with her family while doing something else with Multiform, she's not spending any less time with them or focusing on them any less as if she weren't using the technique.
Kakara is an optimiser and a socialiser. It is not a bad thing for her to do the things she likes and talk to the people she's close to at the same time. If someone gets offended for putting down what should be a pure positive, that's on them, not her. It's just like how she didn't drop out of Super Saiyan when she found out it hurt Dandeer's feelings.
There are some things Kakara shouldn't do, but she shouldn't wilfully limit her own life when there's no good reason to do so. Here, Kakara wants to do some announcing, spend time with her family, and spend time with her friend. It is not wrong of Kakara for her to want to do any of those things, or even all of those things.
It's wrong of her to blow off her friend when that's something she doesn't have to do. It's wrong of her to blow off her family when that's something she doesn't have to do. It's unhealthy for her to not do something she likes just on the vague notion that someone would unfairly take offence at that. (Should she also stop wearing red at school because someone makes fun of her for it?)
Some situations are serious enough or important enough to warrant not using Multiform, but here during a tournament where Kakara gets to relax, have fun, do the things she likes, speak to people she likes, and generally have a good time? That can't be justified.
Kakara is an optimiser and a socialiser. It is not a bad thing for her to do the things she likes and talk to the people she's close to at the same time. If someone gets offended for putting down what should be a pure positive, that's on them, not her. It's just like how she didn't drop out of Super Saiyan when she found out it hurt Dandeer's feelings.
There are some things Kakara shouldn't do, but she shouldn't wilfully limit her own life when there's no good reason to do so. Here, Kakara wants to do some announcing, spend time with her family, and spend time with her friend. It is not wrong of Kakara for her to want to do any of those things, or even all of those things.
It's wrong of her to blow off her friend when that's something she doesn't have to do. It's wrong of her to blow off her family when that's something she doesn't have to do. It's unhealthy for her to not do something she likes just on the vague notion that someone would unfairly take offence at that. (Should she also stop wearing red at school because someone makes fun of her for it?)
Some situations are serious enough or important enough to warrant not using Multiform, but here during a tournament where Kakara gets to relax, have fun, do the things she likes, speak to people she likes, and generally have a good time? That can't be justified.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I was struggling to articulate this, thank you. It's not that it's impossible for someone to feel a little uncomfortable if the thought occurs to them, it's that choosing not to do so is bending over backwards to accomodate something incredibly minor that more often than not won't even exist, never mind be an issue. It's putting your own wants and needs behind someone else's mild bad thought that I'm so against - you're right that it's downright unhealthy to do so.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Think of this like a blue option from Faster then Light we unlocked it by learning multiform.
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Also, the Oozaru form seems to be exclusively carnivorous, while Saiyans are omnivores.
It's been mentioned in-quest that Karen looks a lot like Android 18. It's a coincidental similarity, and presumably someone would think they're related fairly closely if they saw them together(they'd be half right).
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Okay, I can work and compromise with this.
The point of difference between me and this is mostly that I'm not JUST talking about this exact situation. I'm also talking about the longer term and other situations and other people and other relationships. There may come a time when someone Kakara is close to, or cares about, wants to know that at some particular time ,Kakara is "all present." That there aren't other Kakaras running around doing stuff. Why? I could compose several philosophical and emotional arguments, and I'd argue that they're at least worthy enough not to be dismissed out of hand.
In that other situation, I think it's worth recognizing that yes, sometimes other people do have some degree of claim on what you will and won't do. Relationships are sometimes about what options we willingly give up for the sake of another person. If a person who is otherwise kind and positive towards Kakara, but has funny ideas about the philosophy of identity, occasionally wants Kakara to agree to be 'all there...' maybe that's not unreasonable.
...
So at some times, if not necessarily this time, I think it may be reasonable for us to say "Kakara is going to concentrate all on this one person or thing." Sometimes that's a mechanical/practical issue (I suspect Kakara has more Seer endurance in a singleton state than her multiform clones do). Sometimes it's an emotional/relationship issue.
Does this strike you as an understandable position that can, in certain situations if not right here and now, be valid?
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
To be honest, if I had MF... whilst they're entitled to their opinion, I'd probably stop hanging out with this person. Why would I choose them over 3 other friends? In this scenario, I'm already having to make a choice as to who I hang out with.
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Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
No, it is from the same artist that drawed the child 18 picture I posted a while back.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I know, you found the article.
@Simon_Jester , Excellent points.
I confess that I am at the school of thought that I would be fine as long as in some way shape or form, they are not giving me less.
I would probably be mildly creeped out by the first few times of imperfect multiform, assuming I have relevant ki skills that could tell that when someone is suppressed.
As long as that didn't give me a worse sparring experience or something, than I would likely be fine with it in virtually all circumstances.
I think that it wouldn't be overly out of line for special occasions, things of particular importance being 'all there' would be something that someone on the level of a spouse or best friend might be within standard deviation of reason (Close enough that it is hard to tell either way) to ask, and even receive.
People you are very close to do have some claim over what you do, but what do you think it would feel like to be one of the other tasks left behind in order to make that happen? I imagine that would be rather crushing.
That position is valid, but would be rather frustrating to keep track of.
Also, I think that assumes that Kakara notices this. She is still a child (genius PC, but still), and has some really simplified and unexplored aspects of her morality. The people she spends time with probably don't think of this either.
Also, please note that the cultural expectations seem to be that multiforming is a non-problem thing.
I confess that I am at the school of thought that I would be fine as long as in some way shape or form, they are not giving me less.
I would probably be mildly creeped out by the first few times of imperfect multiform, assuming I have relevant ki skills that could tell that when someone is suppressed.
As long as that didn't give me a worse sparring experience or something, than I would likely be fine with it in virtually all circumstances.
I think that it wouldn't be overly out of line for special occasions, things of particular importance being 'all there' would be something that someone on the level of a spouse or best friend might be within standard deviation of reason (Close enough that it is hard to tell either way) to ask, and even receive.
People you are very close to do have some claim over what you do, but what do you think it would feel like to be one of the other tasks left behind in order to make that happen? I imagine that would be rather crushing.
That position is valid, but would be rather frustrating to keep track of.
Also, I think that assumes that Kakara notices this. She is still a child (genius PC, but still), and has some really simplified and unexplored aspects of her morality. The people she spends time with probably don't think of this either.
Also, please note that the cultural expectations seem to be that multiforming is a non-problem thing.
I get both sides of the argument myself.
For Death, emotions are emotion, not logic. Even if they know Multi-form inside and out, maybe even use it themself, that doesn't mean they'll feel fine with talking to one of three/four Kakaras.
*Shrug* I do get where you're coming from on them not feeling like a friend if they don't bother to understand, but that's the thing. Maybe they do understand and still feel that way anyway. And what if it wasn't just one friend that was like that, but all of them.
On the otherside of the issue, we are a Scion. Most of the time we are juggling so many things that we need to do that we wouldn't be able to socialize at all without using Multi-form somewhere.
And really, that's the bottom line in it's own way.
For Death, emotions are emotion, not logic. Even if they know Multi-form inside and out, maybe even use it themself, that doesn't mean they'll feel fine with talking to one of three/four Kakaras.
*Shrug* I do get where you're coming from on them not feeling like a friend if they don't bother to understand, but that's the thing. Maybe they do understand and still feel that way anyway. And what if it wasn't just one friend that was like that, but all of them.
On the otherside of the issue, we are a Scion. Most of the time we are juggling so many things that we need to do that we wouldn't be able to socialize at all without using Multi-form somewhere.
And really, that's the bottom line in it's own way.
Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
I'm guessing that we spread our ki sense far out enough to become one with the world, so rather than drawing in ki from others we become aware of how everything is connected and draw ki from ourself, thus fueling the spirit bomb.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
[X] Choosing is for chumps. Multiform!
There seems to be some sort of existensial debate, but honestly? I'm not about to read 3 pages of it right now.
Multiform is great, let's use it to observe so we can get experience in how to commentate, with immediate feedback for how the crowd reacts.
Ideally, we would commentate as Scion Kakara (if practical), observe with our family as Karen, and I don't know if we sit with Fenella as Karen, Kakara, or SaiyanMasque!Kakara (but likely not the last one).
There seems to be some sort of existensial debate, but honestly? I'm not about to read 3 pages of it right now.
Multiform is great, let's use it to observe so we can get experience in how to commentate, with immediate feedback for how the crowd reacts.
Ideally, we would commentate as Scion Kakara (if practical), observe with our family as Karen, and I don't know if we sit with Fenella as Karen, Kakara, or SaiyanMasque!Kakara (but likely not the last one).
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Oh, sorry, Lailo. Misremembered.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Hey @PoptartProdigy , are we supposed to know what available Elite Talents actually do before the moment we pick one? I ask because I think we know what Machine Sensing does, but All is One is much less clear.