Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
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- United States
And this is why first past the post sucks
Dragon Ball: After the End
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- Mid-Atlantic
@fictionfan , the counter-argument to your position is that there are ways to achieve the goal of "gain experience" with a smaller side-order of "public humiliation." This is not, in itself, a bad counter-argument.
@Lailoken , we're not going to be fighting in the tournament, in case you didn't notice. At this point you are denigrating, minimizing, and denying Kakara's abilities over and over for no reason other than to debate the disadvantages of a hypothetical counterfactual outcome of an argument you already won. Is this sufficient reason to do so?
Because if I could go back in time and vote for "fight in the tournament," at this point I'd be sorely tempted to do so even though it's a bad idea, purely because fuck the mindset saying Kakara can't fight. This is an entirely OOC opinion of mine and makes little sense in story (except maybe as Kakara overcoming some kind of instinctive self-loathing or inadequacy). And yet, I'm feeling this reaction building in myself. Because fuck the mindset saying Kakara can't fight. The more it becomes clear to me that people are saying Kakara can't fight, the more I think "fuck the mindset saying Kakara can't fight."
If this goes on much longer, you will have persuaded at least one person to consistently vote against your position that we need to conceal Kakara's weaknesses as a fighter.
If that is your goal, then by all means, continue.
@Lailoken , we're not going to be fighting in the tournament, in case you didn't notice. At this point you are denigrating, minimizing, and denying Kakara's abilities over and over for no reason other than to debate the disadvantages of a hypothetical counterfactual outcome of an argument you already won. Is this sufficient reason to do so?
Because if I could go back in time and vote for "fight in the tournament," at this point I'd be sorely tempted to do so even though it's a bad idea, purely because fuck the mindset saying Kakara can't fight. This is an entirely OOC opinion of mine and makes little sense in story (except maybe as Kakara overcoming some kind of instinctive self-loathing or inadequacy). And yet, I'm feeling this reaction building in myself. Because fuck the mindset saying Kakara can't fight. The more it becomes clear to me that people are saying Kakara can't fight, the more I think "fuck the mindset saying Kakara can't fight."
If this goes on much longer, you will have persuaded at least one person to consistently vote against your position that we need to conceal Kakara's weaknesses as a fighter.
If that is your goal, then by all means, continue.
I didn't win this, and of course Kakara can fight. I voted for her to fight. The key is for her to fight in a manner which highlights her exceptional achievements instead of her shortcomings.
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- Mid-Atlantic
Okay, to be more clear, you did not win the argument that Kakara should fight in such a way as to put on an exhibition of her strengths. You are correct in that, and I am not unsympathetic. It was a cool idea.
On the other hand, you did win the argument that Kakara should not expose her weaknesses in a way that might result in public humiliation. And it is this argument which is being rehashed at the moment.
Moreover, you are rehashing this argument with the specific rhetorical tactic of denigrating Kakara's fighting ability, to an extent that comes across as somewhat extreme- at least to me. This is creating a perverse reaction, at least for me, whereby I become more predisposed to ignore your future arguments for caution and circumspection. Which I do occasionally review when considering a vote choice.
You are fully in your rights not to care about that, obviously, but I may not be the only one who is starting to find it offputting.
On the other hand, you did win the argument that Kakara should not expose her weaknesses in a way that might result in public humiliation. And it is this argument which is being rehashed at the moment.
Moreover, you are rehashing this argument with the specific rhetorical tactic of denigrating Kakara's fighting ability, to an extent that comes across as somewhat extreme- at least to me. This is creating a perverse reaction, at least for me, whereby I become more predisposed to ignore your future arguments for caution and circumspection. Which I do occasionally review when considering a vote choice.
You are fully in your rights not to care about that, obviously, but I may not be the only one who is starting to find it offputting.
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- Mid-Atlantic
In fairness, Poptart fairly explicitly said that this mostly refers to un-debated points; if three or four people make a point and no one seems to disagree, it's more likely to "leak out" into Kakara's brain.
At the same time, I kind of agree. I could swear I remember certain debates being reproduced in Kakara's brain too, which is still problematic if the debate in question consists of "Kakara sucks in a fight and would be a laughingstock that would make everyone fear for the safety of their planet" versus "eh, she needs all the combat experience she can get."
I don't want us going that far out of our way to give the girl an inferiority complex.
At the same time, I kind of agree. I could swear I remember certain debates being reproduced in Kakara's brain too, which is still problematic if the debate in question consists of "Kakara sucks in a fight and would be a laughingstock that would make everyone fear for the safety of their planet" versus "eh, she needs all the combat experience she can get."
I don't want us going that far out of our way to give the girl an inferiority complex.
NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
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- Places
I kind of think that publicly choosing not to fight could be just as bad as fighting and losing.
Vegeta for example lost all the time, but he just kept pushing to improve.
Testing yourself, even against those you think might be stronger than you is a very Saiyan thing to do
Vegeta for example lost all the time, but he just kept pushing to improve.
Testing yourself, even against those you think might be stronger than you is a very Saiyan thing to do
I'm that case I'll clarify: Kakara is at a perfectly reasonable combat skill level for an ordinary saiyan her age in ordinary times. The problem is that she's not an ordinary saiyan in ordinary times, and as she's already painfully learned, will not be judged to the same standards as one.
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Royals staying out of tournaments doesn't seem to be abnormal. Royals who are also twelve staying out of tournaments, likewise. Notice that Berra's not a participant, even though he could still do his job of judging the combatants that way. I'm pretty sure Apra and Yammar aren't going to participate either.
Now, I'm pretty sure if Jaffur was here, he'd be in the tournament. But that's because Jaffur's really super-fighty, even for saiyans.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Actually a sixth, now a quarter. You're forgetting the matriarch/patriarch who apparently retain political pull and of course super saiyan status.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
You know @Lailoken ? Thinking about it, if your argument is that you wanted an oozaru rumble to showcase Kakara's strenghts that might not have worked quite as you expected. I mean, so far my argument against it (besides it not being the point of the tournament) was that the kaiju busters were supposed to be moving artillery since their power level was so low that they would be insta killed if they closed in against the dragon and in a fight between Oozaru they would have closed in, so the tournament was not the best way to test for them. You countered this argument by saying that experienced kaioken users could go up to times 20 in a sustained boost and might go as far as times 30 if they are really skilled in a single burst which is a fair point.
Though looking at it from another perspective, you were against fighting Kakara with no restrictions as a reward for the tournament because it proved nothing. You also suggested also splitting GO using multiform to show more fights at the same time and so that it wasn't that one sided. But had we chose to do so and we Split in half, each of our clones would have been at 750 millón power level. Sincé the hypothetical saiyans you wanted to recruit as Kaiju busters and thus you would want in the tournament are skilled at both oozaru and kaioken, that would leave them at a power level of 30 millón times 20 = 600 millón sustained and 900 millón in a single burst. Not to mention that, in a fight against them, we would still be untrained in our style of fighting while they would be quite skilled. Also, if they had experience as oozaru then they would be more used to fight as one. Thus, not only would have still showed that we had no style training but it also offered the chance of having people see our greatest achievement defeated.
On the other hand, in a no limitations fight against us, even if we used multiform to Split in half, we would have been left with a PL of 625 millón. In order to compete with that much power they would have needed oozaru with kaioken so PL of 600 millón continuous or 900 millón as a burst. However in both of those instances their speed would be halved so it would be equivalent to 300 millón or 450 millón in a burst against our 625 millón as super saiyan or 375 as GO. Which means we would still have overwhelming advantage. Now granted, Oozaru has half again their power level in durability so that would leave them at 900 millón continuous and 1.35 billón in a burst while half the punching power of our kikoho is 675 millón. But we also have 43 willpower and with our power Split in half, a willpower push would be fairly obvious instead of us just raising our PL above theirs.
Though looking at it from another perspective, you were against fighting Kakara with no restrictions as a reward for the tournament because it proved nothing. You also suggested also splitting GO using multiform to show more fights at the same time and so that it wasn't that one sided. But had we chose to do so and we Split in half, each of our clones would have been at 750 millón power level. Sincé the hypothetical saiyans you wanted to recruit as Kaiju busters and thus you would want in the tournament are skilled at both oozaru and kaioken, that would leave them at a power level of 30 millón times 20 = 600 millón sustained and 900 millón in a single burst. Not to mention that, in a fight against them, we would still be untrained in our style of fighting while they would be quite skilled. Also, if they had experience as oozaru then they would be more used to fight as one. Thus, not only would have still showed that we had no style training but it also offered the chance of having people see our greatest achievement defeated.
On the other hand, in a no limitations fight against us, even if we used multiform to Split in half, we would have been left with a PL of 625 millón. In order to compete with that much power they would have needed oozaru with kaioken so PL of 600 millón continuous or 900 millón as a burst. However in both of those instances their speed would be halved so it would be equivalent to 300 millón or 450 millón in a burst against our 625 millón as super saiyan or 375 as GO. Which means we would still have overwhelming advantage. Now granted, Oozaru has half again their power level in durability so that would leave them at 900 millón continuous and 1.35 billón in a burst while half the punching power of our kikoho is 675 millón. But we also have 43 willpower and with our power Split in half, a willpower push would be fairly obvious instead of us just raising our PL above theirs.
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- Mid-Atlantic
Well, it might have backfired, but I suspect we'd be relatively less likely to wind up disgraced that way. Among other things, because people know we can't train the Golden Oozaru form as extensively as we might like, because it's so powerful it threatens to break the Hall's wards.
If we have a hard-fought beam duel that revolves mainly around power levels where someone bold/crazy enough to go Kaio-Ken x30 (higher than Goku went against Frieza, for Kai's sake!) can conceivably overpower one of our Multiform clones...
That's an honorable way to lose.
...
Another point is that there are probably a LOT of "well yeah, but he used Kaio-Ken" exceptions to "lol they just got their asses kicked." In a setting where all the serious contestants are capped at a fixed power level that Kaio-Ken lets you consistently exceed by a very, very extreme margin, Kaio-Ken is something of a 'killer app' and strikes me as very hard to counter, except by going full evasive and really hoping that the strain on their body wears them out before they tear you to pieces.
If we have a hard-fought beam duel that revolves mainly around power levels where someone bold/crazy enough to go Kaio-Ken x30 (higher than Goku went against Frieza, for Kai's sake!) can conceivably overpower one of our Multiform clones...
That's an honorable way to lose.
...
Another point is that there are probably a LOT of "well yeah, but he used Kaio-Ken" exceptions to "lol they just got their asses kicked." In a setting where all the serious contestants are capped at a fixed power level that Kaio-Ken lets you consistently exceed by a very, very extreme margin, Kaio-Ken is something of a 'killer app' and strikes me as very hard to counter, except by going full evasive and really hoping that the strain on their body wears them out before they tear you to pieces.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
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Considering the damage Kaio-Ken does to the body useing kaio-ken is a bit like using performance enhancing drugs.
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- Mid-Atlantic
Yes, but on the other hand it's a thing where having better ki control and self-discipline helps, and it really IS a way of tapping into your internal energy, just at a dangerous rate. It's still you kicking their ass. It's just you doing something very risky and difficult, that's very hard to counter unless your opponent does exactly the same thing (especially when everyone involved is at fifteen million).
Eh, I don't think so. I suspect that her skill is a perfectly reasonable combat skill level for an ordinary Scion her age in ordinary times. Against the average Saiyan of any age, she would likely win.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I wonder how many fights have ended in deaths by Kaio-Ken over dose?
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
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- Tempe, AZ
True, most Saiyans are going to be at level competent or maybe talented. Expectional is expectional.
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- Mid-Atlantic
Probably a few, mostly Goku Stylists.
I suspect it's a lot more common for injuries to weaken someone so badly that their power level collapses and they lose the fight by default. It's like "bad news, I am going to have to go full Krillin Style and dodge for my life, good news, if I can outlast this guy for a few minutes he is toast."
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I mean, Kakara is back to regularly interacting with Jaffur in a combative context, so an inferiority complex is all but inevitable at this stage. :lol
I'm trying to get the update out, folks, but the in-laws are coming over again. This is a good thing -- they're lovely people -- but I have precious little time for posting when life calls for me to be hosting. If the update's not out within the next hour, it won't come until Monday.
The former Lords aren't supposed to get involved and it reflects badly on the current lord/scion and the institution as a whole if they have to, hence why I keep saying "active" royalty. They're obviously there as an emergency measure if absolutely necessary, and possibly even another generation back, but for the purposes of calculating how well a royal is living up to their duty there are only four (now two) "official" Super-Saiyans at any one time.
We'd naturally have to restrict our power level somewhat, but having multiple simultaneous opponents for each body can help even at least the appearance of the fight. From what we've heard real dedicated Oozaru expertise is very rare to such a degree that there isn't even a formal style for it, so nobody is going to be expecting a kaiju to be smooth and graceful and even if they did there'd be a major balancing factor of the awe of actually seeing the living legend in person.
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- Mid-Atlantic
You're being overliteral. I don't think it counts against the active-duty royals if grandma has to step up to the plate during a massive outside-context-problem attack.
It would be humiliating to Berra if Apra had to step in to help him deal with some relatively normal, mundane thing like a rebellious House. Or the alien invasion.
It is NOT humiliating to Berra if the planet gets attacked by a planet-eating dragon that can laugh off billion-power-level blast and Apra and Yammar show up to help him keep the planet from getting eaten. The Lords' status as foremost protectors of Garenhuld is not a moronic suicide pact, which you are kiiinda portraying it as here.
Kakara feeling inferior to Jaffur is one thing. That's like, say, Vegeta having an inferiority complex about Goku. Keeps him from getting complacent.
What's worrisome is if she's starting to get an inferiority complex even when she is "dealing with the average saiyan warrior," as it were. Hopefully we can avoid that.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Well it seems like we are not getting an update until Monday.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
... On what basis do you claim this? It's not like Poptart Prodigy dies during weekends only to be reborn each Monday...
EDIT: Missed poptart's post. Though really that's the kinda thing you ought to quote to avoid confusion when referencing it.
For everyday purposes, yeah, but if there's a major issue that threatens the Exiles or planet as a whole, then them getting involved would be expected, not shameful.
Well, actually, we don't know if they're not supposed to be involved at all during the normal stuff. We know that if a Lord/Lady needs a break, the Matriarch/Patriarch fills in. And I imagine that if they want to, they can still get involved/help out, especially during the early years while they're settling into the role while simultaneously dealing with being a parent.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
It was less than 3 hours ago and on the same page.