Dragon Ball: After the End

Bommelom · Jan 13, 2017

Deathbybunnies said:
That's just simply untrue - as a powerful fighter, she is intrinsically both of those things. Whether or not she's on our side while being those things is half of our argument to Berra, and it's incredibly naive to the point of disingenuousness to suggest otherwise.

She's a powerful fighter compared to the galaxy, yes, but she won't necessarily be one compared Garenhuld Saiyans who all have power levels in the millions.

Yeah, she's got potential power enough to become a galactic powerhouse, but Freeza's First Form's power level of 530,000 was enough to make him basically the ruler of the galaxy (he'd never even needed to use his third form before meeting Piccolo). I mean, since she's a human, her potential is technically limitless, but I'm not sure she'd have the training ethics necessary to get significantly more powerful than the strongest base Saiyans.

Andres · Jan 13, 2017

Deathbybunnies said:
That's just simply untrue - as a powerful fighter, she is intrinsically both of those things. Whether or not she's on our side while being those things is half of our argument to Berra, and it's incredibly naive to the point of disingenuousness to suggest otherwise.

She doesn't have to be anything just because she has power. Her power is indeed a factor but it's not a defining factor. If we want her to not fight aliens, we can ask for her to not fight aliens. If we don't want her to get involved in politics, we'll just ask Dad not to reveal her secret to the Saiyans.

Your plan, as far as I can tell, is essentially "She's very powerful, that means we should make her fight our enemies." In my opinion, we can and should try as hard as we can for "She's very powerful, but that doesn't mean we have to make her fight people, nor is it a good reason to make her do so. She should be allowed to choose not to use her power to fight and kill people. Forcing her to do so is wrong on many levels, therefore we should avoid doing so."

She's not some monster on a leash for us to sic on people we don't like, she's Maya, a person, and putting her down as a military asset just because she can be one isn't right.

Deathbybunnies · Jan 13, 2017

Bommelom said:
She's a powerful fighter compared to the galaxy, yes, but she won't necessarily be one compared Garenhuld Saiyans who all have power levels in the millions.

Yeah, she's got potential power enough to become a galactic powerhouse, but Freeza's First Form's power level of 530,000 was enough to make him basically the ruler of the galaxy (he'd never even needed to use his third form before meeting Piccolo). I mean, since she's a human, her potential is technically limitless, but I'm not sure she'd have the training ethics necessary to get significantly more powerful than the strongest base Saiyans.

She might not be an unbeatable trump card, but she's still a significant asset - and reaching a power level of >15 million would automatically make her one of the strongest fighters on the planet.

Andres110 said:
She doesn't have to be anything just because she has power. Her power is indeed a factor but it's not a defining factor. If we want her to not fight aliens, we can ask for her to not fight aliens. If we don't want her to get involved in politics, we'll just ask Dad not to reveal her secret to the Saiyans.

Your plan, as far as I can tell, is essentially "She's very powerful, that means we should make her fight our enemies." In my opinion, we can and should try as hard as we can for "She's very powerful, but that doesn't mean we have to make her fight people, nor is it a good reason to make her do so. She should be allowed to choose not to use her power to fight and kill people. Forcing her to do so is wrong on many levels, therefore we should avoid doing so."

She's not some monster on a leash for us to sic on people we don't like, she's Maya, a person, and putting her down as a military asset just because she can be one isn't right.

Woah, I think you've misunderstood somewhat. We don't have to make her do anything. The nuclear arsenals of various countries around the world are significant military assets without being used - just existing, and being available for use in a worst-case scenario (which here would be a successful invasion/threatened destruction of Garenhuld) is more than enough, and would be accomplished purely by training her and remaining on good terms with her.

What did you even think we were going to do? Train her as an assassin and send her out to kill Saiyans who disagree with us?

Andres · Jan 13, 2017

Deathbybunnies said:
What did you even think we were going to do? Train her as an assassin and send her out to kill Saiyans who disagree with us?

I think you want her to be a weapon, one we keep in reserve but a weapon nonetheless. Treating her as a sentient nuke isn't right, even if we never actually deploy her. She doesn't deserve that and she doesn't have to be that. She can continue being what she's always been.

Deathbybunnies · Jan 13, 2017

Andres110 said:
I think you want her to be a weapon, one we keep in reserve but a weapon nonetheless. Treating her as a sentient nuke isn't right, even if we never actually deploy her. She doesn't deserve that and she doesn't have to be that.

Literally the only point she'd be fighting would be if she herself wanted to fight. Literally nothing will change, expect us acknowledging that one of our friends is good at something and can help us with that thing if it happens to come up.

Say one of your friends is good at DIY. You might ask them for help if you had a big DIY project. You're not friends with them because of that, but it would be stupid not to be able say "hey, Jerry's good with his hands, I'm glad he can help out if my power cuts out." You're not saying "I'm only friends with Jerry in case my power goes out and I need a hand."

I don't know what else to say. You seem to be implying that by acknowledging one of her strengths, and a potential way for her to help us, we're somehow throwing away our entire friendship with the girl like it was trash. Or something.

EDIT: My overall point is, there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that Maya being a strong fighter might be helpful at some point.

DOUBLE EDIT: God damn it I'm arguing with someone on the internet who's entrenched themselves and isn't going to change their mind, aren't I? Let's just drop it - I'm not dropping the point from my plan.

Andres · Jan 13, 2017

Deathbybunnies said:
You seem to be implying that by acknowledging one of her strengths, and a potential way for her to help us, we're somehow throwing away our entire friendship with the girl like it was trash. Or something.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that arguing to Dad that our friendship with her gives us a military asset implies that we'll use that friendship as leverage to get her to fight for us. If it's a lie, then we're lying to Dad when we don't need to. If it's the truth, it's even worse. We're not only not keeping her out of fights as much as we can (which as her pacifist best friend we should try to do), but we're also actively trying to get her to fight people.

Bakkasama · Jan 13, 2017

Andres110 said:
I think you want her to be a weapon, one we keep in reserve but a weapon nonetheless. Treating her as a sentient nuke isn't right, even if we never actually deploy her. She doesn't deserve that and she doesn't have to be that. She can continue being what she's always been.

Ah, I see what the problem is. We are not planning on her fighting anything if we can help it. The fact that she has so much potential alone makes her valuable and if she develops a high power level then she would be influential even if she never uses it.

Saiyans as a culture respect strenght. She has the capacity of reaching beyond the saiyan base cap, which means her words will carry weight if she does. Even if she doesn't, a clan that has her always has the potential to train such a warrior and that would hurt our standing.

I am not trying to force her into a role. If she wants to be just Maya then I am willing to support het, we can afford for her to be like that. What we can't afford is for other clan to use her against us for politics and that is a real posibility. Berra must be made aware of the intetest she might gather from other houses so that he can properly protect her from it.

I want to use Maya but more than that I don't want her to be used against us and to stop people to turn het into a resource we must first acknowledge how she can be used as one and make those who can help us aware of the danger. Plus, putting out there the possibility of her being beneficial for our house edges the odds in favor of our house head taking an interest in her well being.

Andres · Jan 13, 2017

Bakkasama said:
Plus, putting out there the possibility of her being beneficial for our house edges the odds in favor of our house head taking an interest in her well being.

If Maya's practical uses are what'll edge Berra into taking an interest in her well being, is Berra really the kind of person we should be talking to about Maya in the first place? I believe he's a good enough guy that he'll care regardless, but your logic here is faulty in my opinion.

Deathbybunnies · Jan 13, 2017

Andres110 said:
We're not only not keeping her out of fights as much as we can (which as her pacifist best friend we should try to do), but we're also actively trying to get her to fight people.

Who would she be fighting? The only scenario she'd be encouraged to fight in would be in the unlikely event of a hostile invasion of her homeworld (the one coming up notwithstanding, as she won't be strong enough to help, that's basically never going to happen.) Why do you make that sound like we want to make her a career soldier?

It'll never come up, and if it somehow does, we'll have waaaaaaaaaay bigger problems than whether it's nice to hope a friend will fight for her homeworld. How is this not obvious?

Andres110 said:
If Maya's practical uses are what'll edge Berra into taking an interest in her well being, is Berra really the kind of person we should be talking to about Maya in the first place?

He's the Saiyan Lord - he might be the nicest guy alive, but if he doesn't take his duties as head of state seriously enough to consider the security of his state he's an incompetent fool, and derelict in his duty.

EDIT: God damn it I replied again

Andres · Jan 13, 2017

Deathbybunnies said:
Who would she be fighting? The only scenario she'd be encouraged to fight in would be in the unlikely event of a hostile invasion of her homeworld (the one coming up notwithstanding, as she won't be strong enough to help, that's basically never going to happen.) Why do you make that sound like we want to make her a career soldier?

It'll never come up, and if it somehow does, we'll have waaaaaaaaaay bigger problems than whether it's nice to hope a friend will fight for her homeworld. How is this not obvious?

Look back at my post. That scenario of us choosing to use her as a weapon is only if the implication that we would use her as such was the truth. I'm glad to hear that it's not, but that means we're lying about what we're implying, and it's a lie we don't have to make.

Deathbybunnies said:
Why do you make that sound like we want to make her a career soldier?

My argument isn't that you wanted to make her a career soldier, but there is some evidence I could post to argue that you are trying to make her a warrior, if I was trying to do that.

Deathbybunnies said:
The nuclear arsenals of various countries around the world are significant military assets without being used - just existing, and being available for use in a worst-case scenario (which here would be a successful invasion/threatened destruction of Garenhuld) is more than enough, and would be accomplished purely by training her and remaining on good terms with her.

This implies that you plan to train her to become a warrior, even as she doesn't know that that's why you're training her. Not that I'm saying that's what your plan was.

Deathbybunnies said:
He's the Saiyan Lord - he might be the nicest guy alive, but if he doesn't take his duties as head of state to consider the security of his state he's an incompetent fool, and derelict in his duty.

Firstly, my argument wasn't that he'd be incompetent, my argument was that if he was the kind of person to put Maya's well being at stake to increase the military power of his Clan, we shouldn't be telling him about Maya.
Secondly, he might be Lord, but that doesn't mean he should or would maximise the prosperity of his Clan if it meant doing the wrong thing. Patriotism is no excuse for evil and he's not the kind of person who'd manipulate or use a little girl to make his Clan more powerful.

Deathbybunnies · Jan 13, 2017

Andres110 said:
Look back at my post. That scenario of us choosing to use her as a weapon is only if the implication that we would use her as such was the truth. I'm glad to hear that it's not, but that means we're lying about what we're implying, and it's a lie we don't have to make.

But we aren't lying - if aliens invade and pose a real threat, then assuming her Power Level is significant (say, >10,000,000) we'd ask her to fight for Garenhuld. I'm just saying that there's 2 scenarios: scenario A, where it never happens and so it doesn't matter, and scenario B where aliens invade and post a real threat, and we ask her to fight for Garenhuld because there's billions of people unknowingly relying on us not to be slaughtered.

Andres110 said:
This implies that you plan to train her to become a warrior, even as she doesn't know that that's why you're training her. Not that I'm saying that's what your plan was.

You can't train up your power level without learning how to fight - that's what a power level is. If she decides not to train, then fine, that's her decision, and then she ends up not being the military asset she could be and we don't ask her to fight off hypothetical alien invaders to defend her homeworld, because she's basically a glorified civilian. If she does decide she wants to train her "superpowers", then she's training to become a warrior. It's her choice?

Andres110 said:
Firstly, my argument wasn't that he'd be incompetent, my argument was that if he was the kind of person to put Maya's well being at stake to increase the military power of his Clan, we shouldn't be telling him about Maya.
Secondly, he might be Lord, but that doesn't mean he should or would maximise the prosperity of his Clan if it meant doing the wrong thing. Patriotism is no excuse for evil and he's not the kind of person who'd manipulate or use a little girl to make his Clan more powerful.

Oh, you've misunderstood slightly. We haven't gone from:
Maya is a Civilian => Maya is going to make our Clan more powerful (though I think you actually meant House here?)

We've gone from:
Maya is a Civilian => Maya is going to be a strong fighter and a relevant player in military and political terms => Since she's going to be those things anyway, let's make sure she's on our side, rather than a political enemy's side e.g. The Peats
It's not so much the end goal of her being in the Saiyan community, so much as if she's in the Saiyan community, this is where we should try to make sure she is.

Lailoken · Jan 13, 2017

It's moot, because simply preempting the possibility of her becoming a military asset against us is plenty of reason to establish a favorable relationship with her. Maintaining an overwhelming monopoly on force is the entire point of the monarchy.

Andres · Jan 13, 2017

Deathbybunnies said:
But we aren't lying - if aliens invade and pose a real threat, then assuming her Power Level is significant (say, >10,000,000) we'd ask her to fight for Garenhuld. I'm just saying that there's 2 scenarios: scenario A, where it never happens and so it doesn't matter, and scenario B where aliens invade and post a real threat, and we ask her to fight for Garenhuld because there's billions of people unknowingly relying on us not to be slaughtered.

We wouldn't ask her to fight for Garenhuld. The thought that she'd either have to get into mortal combat with someone or let billions die would break someone like Maya.

Deathbybunnies said:
If she does decide she wants to train her "superpowers", then she's training to become a warrior. It's her choice?

Training to fight is different to signing up to fight. Just because someone goes to a gun range to shoot guns better doesn't mean they're ok to be sent off to shoot people.

Deathbybunnies said:
Maya is a Civilian => Maya is going to be a strong fighter and a relevant player in military and political terms => Since she's going to be those things anyway, let's make sure she's on our side, rather than a political enemy's side e.g. The Peats

But she doesn't have to be a player in military and political terms! If she doesn't want to fight, then she won't fight, therefore she doesn't have to be a player in military terms. In order to not be a player in Saiyan politics, all she has to do is do what our siblings are doing, which is to say pretty much nothing. It's not some inevitable thing like you think it is, especially if we actively try to steer away from that path.

Deathbybunnies · Jan 13, 2017

Andres110 said:
We wouldn't ask her to fight for Garenhuld. The thought that she'd either have to get into mortal combat with someone or let billions die would break someone like Maya.

Well if it ever actually came up, she'd have to get over it because I bet having all her friends and family die because some nutjob with a power level in the billions showed up and decided to glass planet would break her harder. Like, how can you even compare the two?

Andres110 said:
Training to fight is different to signing up to fight. Just because someone goes to a gun range to shoot guns better doesn't mean they're ok to be sent off to shoot people.

But she doesn't have to be a player in military and political terms! If she doesn't want to fight, then she won't fight, therefore she doesn't have to be a player in military terms. In order to not be a player in Saiyan politics, all she has to do is do what our siblings are doing, which is to say pretty much nothing. It's not some inevitable thing like you think it is, especially if we actively try to steer away from that path.

Purely by existing as a native Garenhulder with a power level worth mentioning she's relevant in political terms, and purely by existing with a power level of >10,000,000 she'd be relevant in military terms. The only way you could avoid her being relevant at all was to not train her, given the inevitability of a growing power level of being detected.

Lailoken said:
It's moot, because simply preempting the possibility of her becoming a military asset against us is plenty of reason to establish a favorable relationship with her. Maintaining an overwhelming monopoly on force is the entire point of the monarchy.

The whole damn thing is even more moot than that, because not only have I said I'm not dropping the point from the plan several posts ago, but he's not even voting for the damn plan! Can we please just drop the argument? I keep seeing points I disagree with strenuously coming up and then I feel obliged to point out why they're wrong.

Andres · Jan 13, 2017

Since continuing the argument means repeating things I've already said, I'll move on to something else.

I've figured out how Goku/Bardock apparently fought in space! It wasn't because they compressed oxygen or anything like that around themselves with ki, that's just too sciencey and makes sense-y for Dragon Ball. No, the real reason was revealed in DBZ a long time ago. As King Kai explains, "Saiyans are born with a unique ability to fight anywhere." Fighting was involved, so they were able to fight there!

Deathbybunnies · Jan 13, 2017

Andres110 said:
Since continuing the argument means repeating things I've already said, I'll move on to something else.

I've figured out how Goku/Bardock apparently fought in space! It wasn't because they compressed oxygen or anything like that around themselves with ki, that's just too sciencey and makes sense-y for Dragon Ball. No, the real reason was revealed in DBZ a long time ago. As King Kai explains, "Saiyans are born with a unique ability to fight anywhere." Fighting was involved, so they were able to fight there!

That's really dumb, but Saiyans are really dumb - theory confirmed!

Bakkasama · Jan 13, 2017

Andres110 said:
But she doesn't have to be a player in military and political terms! If she doesn't want to fight, then she won't fight, therefore she doesn't have to be a player in military terms. In order to not be a player in Saiyan politics, all she has to do is do what our siblings are doing, which is to say pretty much nothing. It's not some inevitable thing like you think it is, especially if we actively try to steer away from that path.

She is a talented ki user who is going to be really powerful later, she will be introduced and trained by a Scion many consider THE next great ruler and who has legendary status and the fact that she is our best friend and human ki user is enough that there will surely be some idiots among the faith drawing comparisons to the ancestors. Plus, it show that our best friend is human and we don't have any saiyan friends our age in the eyes of the public which is going to be misinterpreted by some. Hopefully she will be able to keep out of politics but I am not optimistic about the amount of attention people might give her.

Alright, change of subject. Is it just me or is it likely that the Peat loves us? Faith loves us for sure, we forgave Celeran and now we are toeing the masquerade by training a human. Addthat the sealing looks like a power grab and that Oni did something similar when he taught them to "fight da powah!"...

Andres · Jan 13, 2017

Huh. I was just checking the OP and apparently Frieza Style has been made canon. It's in Useful Information under Known Styles. Has some cool stuff in it.

mithril-blade · Jan 14, 2017

Gore17 said:
If Berra questions our actions, we should point out everything he did to help his friend(Dandeer) and the effects of that before throwing stones.

That is not something one does to ones parent if one wants to keep a nice stable relationship. I think that it would be good to remember that we are not talking to an equal. Anyway, that said:

Andres110 said:
She doesn't have to be any of that stuff. She can just continue being Maya. Forcing her to be a political or military asset is wrong in a moral sense, thinking that she can only be either is wrong in a factual sense.

You know, I think we could fix this issue by pointing that we are only using this argument as a means to get what we want rather then it reflecting our nature.

Andres · Jan 14, 2017

mithril-blade said:
You know, I think we could fix this issue by pointing that we are only using this argument as a means to get what we want rather then it reflecting our nature.

Lying like that would reflect on our nature in a different way.

Andres · Jan 15, 2017

@PoptartProdigy, please take a look at this picture:

From the imagery, it seems like Goku is punching through King Piccolo with the power of a Great Ape while in his base form. Can we figure out how to do the same in a more conscious and intentional manner? We've mastered the Great Ape transformation, which gives us something to work with, and we did so well in the Great Ape roll that we got Golden Ape in a single turn with Dad teaching us, implying talent. Furthermore, we've proved that Great Ape and Super Saiyan can be used together, so learning how to use Great Ape's power while in Super Saiyan without going Golden Ape might be possible if we can get it to work in base form.

EDIT: Yamcha had a "wolf totem", whatever that was, so maybe it can be like that?

ElleonXan · Jan 15, 2017

Andres110 said:
@PoptartProdigy, please take a look at this picture:

From the imagery, it seems like Goku is punching through King Piccolo with the power of a Great Ape while in his base form. Can we figure out how to do the same in a more conscious and intentional manner? We've mastered the Great Ape transformation, which gives us something to work with, and we did so well in the Great Ape roll that we got Golden Ape in a single turn with Dad teaching us, implying talent. Furthermore, we've proved that Great Ape and Super Saiyan can be used together, so learning how to use Great Ape's power while in Super Saiyan without going Golden Ape might be possible if we can get it to work in base form.

EDIT: Yamcha had a "wolf totem", whatever that was, so maybe it can be like that?

Wasn't that because of the Super Holy Water, which magically pulled the "hidden power" out of Goku to give him the strength to fight Piccolo? Pretty sure that was some DB era magic BS, not training.

I mean, it's not a bad idea. A pretty good one, in fact. But personally I figure like every other "pull out the hidden power deep inside you" moment in DB/DBZ we'd probably need magic to pull it off... something we're not really equipped to do right now.

Sucal · Jan 15, 2017

ElleonXan said:
Wasn't that because of the Super Holy Water, which magically pulled the "hidden power" out of Goku to give him the strength to fight Piccolo? Pretty sure that was some DB era magic BS, not training.

I mean, it's not a bad idea. A pretty good one, in fact. But personally I figure like every other "pull out the hidden power deep inside you" moment in DB/DBZ we'd probably need magic to pull it off... something we're not really equipped to do right now.

Eh, I always figured the Super Holy Water only didn't kill him because he was a Saiyan rather then Human (and thus got a Zenkai instead)

Andres · Jan 15, 2017

ElleonXan said:
But personally I figure like every other "pull out the hidden power deep inside you" moment in DB/DBZ we'd probably need magic to pull it off...

I believe PoptartProdigy said that anything is possible with sufficient willpower, which is why we're able to consciously get out of Great Ape form at all. Besides, that kind of "hidden power deep inside you" isn't solely the domain of magic in Dragon Ball. The Super Saiyan transformations themselves come to mind (particularly SS3), and Unlock Potential as done by Guru visually looked like it could've been an esoteric application of life energy rather than an application of magic. Would be something to look into once we hit Exceptional Ki Talents.

ElleonXan · Jan 15, 2017

Andres110 said:
I believe PoptartProdigy said that anything is possible with sufficient willpower, which is why we're able to consciously get out of Great Ape form at all. Besides, that kind of "hidden power deep inside you" isn't solely the domain of magic in Dragon Ball. The Super Saiyan transformations themselves come to mind (particularly SS3), and Unlock Potential as done by Guru visually looked like it could've been an esoteric application of life energy rather than an application of magic. Would be something to look into once we hit Exceptional Ki Talents.

Fair enough. I always figured Guru's power ups was the same type of magic as the SHW, but I can see arguing it to be ki. Pretty sure the "Mystic" thing Elder Kai did for Gohan was magic, though.

And I'll have to personally disagree with the SSJ powerups being unleashing their potential... it always came off as a "force multiplier" transformation, instead of a "force unleashed" one to me. But then again, what do I know anyway?

Dragon Ball: After the End

There is always a greater fool

There is always a greater fool

Self-Proclaimed King of the Dumpster Fires

The Devil’s Cut

Self-Proclaimed King of the Dumpster Fires