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Dragon Ball: After the End

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[X] Plan Compromise

Meh, I prefer actually fighting it out, but Brom raised good points about the wording. This is fine too, I suppose.

Edit: turns out actually catching up to the thread is useful; Compromise looks fine.
 
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[X] Plan Compromise
Deathbybunnies said:
Okay, that first point is certainly valid, though I'd note that from Maya we can tell there's a cultural bias towards superpowers leading to running around as superheroes, even as 10-year-olds. That could get very dark, very fast.
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She's not running around with superpowers, though, she's hiding them, and assuming they get even a power level of 10 they'd be basically untouchable.
Deathbybunnies said:
Maya, however, is already keeping secrets. These exact ones, in fact. So I don't think that one's a big deal at all. We (and hopefully our Saiyan buddies) can be her emotional support!
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Well, yeah, and it's clearly taking a toll on her, since she seems very happy to have someone to tell it all to.

..And I really don't want her to become alienated by humanity by relying on a bunch of Saiyans whose human forms she has never met.
 
ElleonXan said:
Fair enough... but I'll just point back to the [Pacifist] trait and where it says "After hard experiences and a great deal of thought, you have refined your earlier opinions on fighting and violence. Where once you avoided them out of simple distaste, you now do so out of moral obligation."
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Oh, and one last thing, @PoptartProdigy has said that Kakara's dislike of fighting doesn't extend towards sparring, which I'm pretty sure this would count as.
 
Bommelom said:
[X] Plan Compromise

She's not running around with superpowers, though, she's hiding them, and assuming they get even a power level of 10 they'd be basically untouchable.

Well, yeah, and it's clearly taking a toll on her, since she seems very happy to have someone to tell it all to.

..And I really don't want her to become alienated by humanity by relying on a bunch of Saiyans whose human forms she has never met.
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I would note that under this system to be "untouchable" by regular humans would need a great deal more than a 10 - a farmer out in the middle of nowhere gets an 11, apparently. For bullets to not be a big deal, you'd need to be in the 100s at least, quite possibly more.

And... I guess I just fundamentally don't get the whole "alienated from humanity" angle. Not only is it basically impossible to be significantly alienated from a society you continue to spend the majority of your life in, but unless you actively think negatively of a group, does it matter if you don't particularly care about them? People don't care about a lot of things. (NOTE: I don't care about sports, or sports players, but if one was in trouble in front of me I'd still help them out. Not giving a damn if they die/suffer etc. isn't what I mean by "don't care about".)

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Bommelom said:
Oh, and one last thing, @PoptartProdigy has said that Kakara's dislike of fighting doesn't extend towards sparring, which I'm pretty sure this would count as.
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You kind of took that one out of context- in the very next line, he pointed out that as a friendly spar, this wouldn't be an issue regarding the "moral obligation."
EDIT: Or maybe not! I'm actually not sure how to read that next line. I originally read it as "well, of course there's no moral issue here" but now I see it could be read as "this is still pointless, therefore moral obligation".:confused:
 
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Bommelom said:
Oh, and one last thing, @PoptartProdigy has said that Kakara's dislike of fighting doesn't extend towards sparring, which I'm pretty sure this would count as.
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Fair enough. I disagree, but I can see where you're coming from with this.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm disagreeing that this is sparring, not that our illustrious author said something.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
I would note that under this system to be "untouchable" by regular humans would need a great deal more than a 10 - a farmer out in the middle of nowhere gets an 11, apparently. For bullets to not be a big deal, you'd need to be in the 100s at least, quite possibly more.
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Farmer is 5, actually, not 11. Goku could tank bullets at PL 10, even though they still hurt.
 
Nathaniel Wolff said:
Take a deep, deep breath and repeat after me:

Power Levels Are Bullshit.
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I know they're bullshit, and that at any given moment some asshole can decide to transcend their limits and go full Rambo on the guy who's way out of his weight class on paper but to be even slightly internally consistent, baseline Bulma (because there is no other Bulma) has to be able to tank bullets like it's not a big deal! Goddamn it, no wonder I can't keep this shit straight!
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I know they're bullshit, and that at any given moment some asshole can decide to transcend their limits and go full Rambo on the guy who's way out of his weight class on paper but to be even slightly internally consistent, baseline Bulma (because there is no other Bulma) has to be able to tank bullets like it's not a big deal! Goddamn it, no wonder I can't keep this shit straight!
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When in the series is Bulma's power level 12? Because if it's in the Z era that actually makes a degree of sense.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I know they're bullshit, and that at any given moment some asshole can decide to transcend their limits and go full Rambo on the guy who's way out of his weight class on paper but to be even slightly internally consistent, baseline Bulma (because there is no other Bulma) has to be able to tank bullets like it's not a big deal! Goddamn it, no wonder I can't keep this shit straight!
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Vegeta can't use the Solar Flare, Bulma can't use ki to strengthen herself or fly.

There is probably the same reason behind both of these - they never bothered to learn.
 
GilliamYaeger said:
Vegeta can't use the Solar Flare, Bulma can't use ki to strengthen herself or fly.

There is probably the same reason behind both of these - they never bothered to learn.
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Of course, that would just mean that power levels are an even worse way of gauging how good at fighting someone/something is, which just lead us back to the "power levels are bullshit" conclusion.
 
ElleonXan said:
@PoptartProdigy, with what you've said it seems like powering up in Masque form with intent to do something with that power seems like it'll be attracting tons of attention to us that we really don't want, but I have to wonder: wouldn't we have had to have trained up and used our power with intent previously to get it to the comfort/acclimation level we already have in our masque? Why is this situation so much more suspicious to the saiyans than when we were training, since we seem to be out in this world's equivalent of the "Forbidden Forest" where it seems that for the most part the locals are afraid to go because of the bears. (Assuming I'm reading things right and not getting things mixed up in my head.)
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By and large the public won't notice or care specifically because of those earlier incidences, yes, but you're supposed to be at a birthday party. Your parents would wonder. So would your grandparents. Lady Vegeta would be outright alarmed and would probably respond. In short, nobody you don't care about would care, but everybody you do care about would.

Bommelom said:
How long is the vote going to last, anyways, @PoptartProdigy?
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Gonna close some time tonight.

ElleonXan said:
At this point, I think we're just splitting hairs. 20,000 is 1/11,250 of our max masque power, never mind how much smaller it is than our regular, SSJ, Oozaru or GO forms. So we're already pretty low down in power. Would it feel better for you if the power level was lowered to 10,000? 5,000? What number would be satisfying?

But that's not why I voted for Keep it Simple. Now here's why I don't like the fighting part of Yer-a-Wizard/Compomise:

It doesn't feel like something a pacifist would do. Sure, it feels kinda like a saiyan thing to do, but more in a Vegeta/Goku love-to-fight type of way. Maybe if we still had the [Gentle] character trait, I could see this choice, but as a [Pacifist] we're morally opposed to violence. Sure we can fight if we need to, but in this situation... we don't need to. We're already powerful enough to end the fight instantly, so dragging it out to search out our opponent's power level seems quite Out-of-Character for Kakara. Again, if we were any other saiyan this would be different, but I can't reconcile the whole "fight to bring out opponent's hidden depths" thing with Kakara Goku, [Open-Armed] [Pacifist].
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That's why I specified in the update that no option will be going for disabling, crippling, or lethal injuries unless specified by a plan writer. Kakara's not going to be actually fighting Maya. She'll be blocking Maya's attacks, and with the given rationalizations present in the update Kakara has no problem with it. The exceptions are the options that call for outright winning, and that's why those options have vote weighting; they aren't things that Kakara can rationalize as being acceptable within her values system, and so there needs to be significant internal resolution (here represented as disproportionate numbers of voters) before she can make herself do that. As you said, it's out of character. But the option wherein you draw Maya out to see how strong she is is not going to involve Kakara inflicting any violence at all. Kakara will evade, primarily, hoping to frustrate Maya into bringing out more power. The absolute most physical violence Kakara will resort to is blocking. That's why that option doesn't have any vote weighting against it; Kakara is going to do no harm, and sees it more in light of gathering information than outright combat. Not a very Gandhi form of nonviolence, but Kakara isn't Gandhi, and there are many different forms of pacifism.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I know they're bullshit, and that at any given moment some asshole can decide to transcend their limits and go full Rambo on the guy who's way out of his weight class on paper but to be even slightly internally consistent, baseline Bulma (because there is no other Bulma) has to be able to tank bullets like it's not a big deal! Goddamn it, no wonder I can't keep this shit straight!
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That is why the only oficial source you should trust is the manga. Any magazine with a list of power levels will inflate them.

Goku having a power level of 10 is speculation but by begining of DB he could tank normal bullets and he was weaker than Roshi, who at the begining of Z was at 139. A healthy human farmer is at 5 canonically. Turtle was at less than 0.2 units (can't recall if 0.02; 0.002 or 0.0002 but it was one of those three).

So far my rule of thumb is that, if a list includes a power level of a non fighter who is not turtle or the farmer, that list is bad since there is no reason to list them or evidence to guess.

If you want to ball park the PL, think early 100's for the 21st martial arts tournament, less than 140. For the rest of dragon ball, consider that at the begining of Z, Goku and Piccolo were at 450 at max power. That was after five years of training from the 23rd budokai, so they were far stronger. Piccolo Jr at said tournament was far stronger than Piccolo Daimao and Goku had two zenkai (or one zenkai and his power unlocked, depending on how you see it) between the 22nd tournament and finally beating Daimao. Plus Goku had both a zenkai and 3 years of not-so-intense training between the 21st and 22nd tournament.

So after 8 months training with Roshi, 21st tournament is early hundreds probably-->one zenkai plus 3 years makes 22nd tournament with Goku and Tien as equals-->2 zenkais (one from Piccolo nearly killing him and another from the sacred wáter) to match Piccolo Daimao, who could destroy cities with ki blasts at that point-->1 zenkai plus 3 years training with Kami knowing he would fight Piccolo makes them roughly equal for the 23rd tournament--> 1 zenkai plus five years training makes 450 power level. Which is where Maya is currently at. For comparison, Goku was eithr 11 or 12 at the begining of dragon ball, depending on when his birthday is.

That is for dragon ball. Then, from the begining of Z up to the Frieza battle, use only the power levels directly said in the manga.

After that, most power level lists use the SS= (Base Power)x50 method which is not the one used here. The speculated PL from the frieza up to Cell according to BoD system can be found here
 
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PoptartProdigy said:
By and large the public won't notice or care specifically because of those earlier incidences, yes, but you're supposed to be at a birthday party. Your parents would wonder. So would your grandparents. Lady Vegeta would be outright alarmed and would probably respond. In short, nobody you don't care about would care, but everybody you do care about would.



Gonna close some time tonight.



That's why I specified in the update that no option will be going for disabling, crippling, or lethal injuries unless specified by a plan writer. Kakara's not going to be actually fighting Maya. She'll be blocking Maya's attacks, and with the given rationalizations present in the update Kakara has no problem with it. The exceptions are the options that call for outright winning, and that's why those options have vote weighting; they aren't things that Kakara can rationalize as being acceptable within her values system, and so there needs to be significant internal resolution (here represented as disproportionate numbers of voters) before she can make herself do that. As you said, it's out of character. But the option wherein you draw Maya out to see how strong she is is not going to involve Kakara inflicting any violence at all. Kakara will evade, primarily, hoping to frustrate Maya into bringing out more power. The absolute most physical violence Kakara will resort to is blocking. That's why that option doesn't have any vote weighting against it; Kakara is going to do no harm, and sees it more in light of gathering information than outright combat. Not a very Gandhi form of nonviolence, but Kakara isn't Gandhi, and there are many different forms of pacifism.
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Fair enough. And please, don't think that I was criticizing your writing or anything. I just have a tendency to grab an idea and project and/or fixate on it beyond all sense: in this case, the fact that it was called a "fight".
 
*lively debate and shifting votes*

*QM announces that the vote will close at some point during the night*

*one long comment gets finished being written three minutes later*

*dead silence*

...huh. I was actually going to wait until things settled naturally, but if you all are taking that as your cue to lock onto your votes, I suppose I can go with that. Vote closed.

Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - Dragon Ball: After the End | Page 259 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.5

[X] Plan Compromise
[x] Keep the fight going for a bit, drawing her out step by step; before you settle this down you want to see exactly how much power Maya has socked away.
-[x] But don't let her handle you your ass. Keep things more or less even, be it by power or skill.
-[x] Then de-escalate.
[x] Talk about this with Maya.
-[x] Raw talent only takes you so far...
--[x] ...We should talk to my dad about this, he's the one who trained me!
---[x] Phone Dad
No. of Votes: 8
Plan: ◈Compromise
adaer
Aranfan
Bommelom
Deathbybunnies
GilliamYaeger
NyxNull
pianoman
Terrabrand

[X] Plan "Yer a ki user, Maya"
[x] Keep the fight going for a bit, drawing her out step by step; before you settle this down you want to see exactly how much power Maya has socked away.
-[x] But don't let her handle you your ass. Keep things more or less even, be it by power or skill.
-[x] Then de-escalate.
[x] Talk about this with Maya.
-[x] She did good in keeping this quiet. There are others like us and they have gone to great lenghts to keep this quiet. Power like this usually runs in families and for someone to have come into it without being from any of the clans would have drawn their attention.
-[x] We will have to discuss this with our dad. He is head of our clan and would know best how to properly introduce her to others like us.
No. of Votes: 7
Plan: ◈"Yer a ki user, Maya"
Alanek
Bakkasama
ChronOblivion
Daecl
KaintukeeBob
KnightDisciple
Pyran

[X] Plan "Keep it simple"
[x] Go to a power level of 20,000 and end this fight with a hug.
[x] Talk about this with Maya.
-[x] Raw talent only takes you so far...
--[x] ...We should talk to my dad about this, he's the one who trained me!
---[x] Phone Dad
No. of Votes: 4
Plan: ◈"Keep it simple"
Alex pears
anailater
ElleonXan
Rmnimoc

[X] Keep the fight going for a bit, drawing her out step by step; before you settle this down you want to see exactly how much power Maya has socked away.
-[X] Then de-escalate.
No. of Votes: 2
veekie
Nathaniel Wolff

[X] (x0.1) BOW BEFORE KAKARA, PUNY HUMAN! HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST LIKENESS BETWEEN US?! Go saiyan. Put the fear of you into this upstart (my goodness is this out of character, but it amuses me to include it).
-[X] (x0.01) In fact, go whole hog on this. Super Saiyan, now. Clearly this is a warranted and proportional response to the situation at hand.
No. of Votes: 2, effectively 0
SMuha
Katsuragi

[X] Keep the fight going for a bit, drawing her out step by step; before you settle this down you want to see exactly how much power Maya has socked away.
-[X] Then de-escalate.
--[X] then hug Maya
No. of Votes: 1
ChildishChimera

[X] (x0.1) BOW BEFORE KAKARA, PUNY HUMAN! HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST LIKENESS BETWEEN US?! Go saiyan. Put the fear of you into this upstart (my goodness is this out of character, but it amuses me to include it).
No. of Votes: 1, effectively 0
DkArthas

[X] Plan Compromise
[x] Keep the fight going for a bit, drawing her out step by step; before you settle this down you want to see exactly how much power Maya has socked away.
-[x] But don't let her handle you your ass. Keep things more or less even, be it by power or skill.
-[x] Then de-escalate.
[x] Talk about this with Maya.
-[x] Raw talent only takes you so far...
--[x] ...We should talk to my dad about this, he's the one who trained me!
---[x] Phone Dad
-[x] Hug her and tell her how much it means to you that she felt she could tell you about this.
-[x] Raw talent only takes you so far...
--[x] ...We should talk to my dad about this, he's the one who trained me!
---[x] Phone Dad
No. of Votes: 1
Karnax626

[X] "What is this? What's happening? What are you? What did you do to me? Ahhh! Ahhh! AHHHHHH!"
No. of Votes: 1
Lailoken

[X] Plan Compromise
[x] Keep the fight going for a bit, drawing her out step by step; before you settle this down you want to see exactly how much power Maya has socked away.
-[x] But don't let her handle you your ass. Keep things more or less even, be it by power or skill.
-[x] Then de-escalate.
-[x] Hug her and tell her how much it means to you that she felt she could tell you about this.
[x] Talk about this with Maya.
-[x] Raw talent only takes you so far...
--[x] ...We should talk to my dad about this, he's the one who trained me!
---[x] Phone Dad

We have a winner!

ElleonXan said:
Fair enough. And please, don't think that I was criticizing your writing or anything. I just have a tendency to grab an idea and project and/or fixate on it beyond all sense: in this case, the fact that it was called a "fight".
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Hey, no worries. :)
 
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I don't like the vote that won. There's not a single hint that we're going to tease Maya for that slip of the tongue of hers. We may not see such prime opportunity for teasing for years to come...
 
Andres110 said:
I don't like the vote that won. There's not a single hint that we're going to tease Maya for that slip of the tongue of hers. We may not see such prime opportunity for teasing for years to come...
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Should have made a serious plan instead of using [jk] then. Had you done so, you would hav probably gotten several votes regardless of the explanation you gave Maya, which would mean other plans would have had to add it to counter you even if they didn't care for it, which would have ensured it was included in the update. You could also have argued about using it to put her on her back foot thanks to Oddball trait and make her less likely to question whatever we say.
 
Bakkasama said:
Should have made a serious plan instead of using [jk] then. Had you done so, you would hav probably gotten several votes regardless of the explanation you gave Maya, which would mean other plans would have had to add it to counter you even if they didn't care for it, which would have ensured it was included in the update. You could also have argued about using it to put her on her back foot thanks to Oddball trait and make her less likely to question whatever we say.
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Um...I wasn't being that serious. I would've used a smiley but I didn't know which one was most appropriate. Not that big of a deal.

The only thing I'm actually disappointed about is that the vote closed before I had a chance to vote. A bunch of plans popped up after I went to sleep and I was too busy after waking up to read them.
 
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-[x] But don't let her handle you your ass. Keep things more or less even, be it by power or skill.

We're very specifically not letting her handle our ass guys.
 
Aranfan said:
Farmer is 5, actually, not 11. Goku could tank bullets at PL 10, even though they still hurt.
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I maintain that that wasn't about power level. He kills demon god-kings with headbutts and even Vegeta declared him to have a freakishly hard head after a direct comparison.



Karnax626 said:
It's more I can't think of a good way of disengaging without fighting, and crushing Maya would be mean (at best). Giving her what she wants is at least partially a holding action until we figure out a better way. In my head at least, this isn't senseless.
TL: DR, can't think of a good way out wihout fighting.
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Ask if she knows how to FLY. She probably hasn't figured it out yet, and she'll immediately lose interest in anything else, because FLYING.
 
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