Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Australia
This brings up something about how you're handling magic that I don't particularly agree with. There are two problems in my opinion: One, you're setting up a dichotomy where magic is weird and ki is straightforward with techniques like Multiform being the exception. Two, you're making magic more of a straightforward system, to the point where they get a beam attack.
I'll start with the first problem. From what I can tell, you're going with the idea of ki being responsible for straightforward things like "push energy downwards to fly up, put energy out of body more intensely to fire an energy beam, hold energy to form a shield" while magic lets you do weirder things like sealing, morality manipulation, and the quintessential Clothes Beam.
The problem is had stuff like hypnosis, Multiform, and Four Witches not already been shown in DB as something non-magical people could do, I think you'd reserve them for sorcery due to their strangeness. If I'm correct, you're considering Age-Up only because of the existence of Four Witches and Multiform. This mode of thinking limits the stuff we can come up with with this force: the power of life itself.
As an example of this stifling, the technique I thought up which you called Karmic Maelstrom, of separating good and evil energy in one's body and using the energy created when they slam back together to form an attack. From what I can tell, you thought the idea of manipulating moral energy was strange enough that it would go into magic instead of ki. In my opinion, there is enough reason for it to be a ki technique.
The characters in DB have shown to be able to sense evil energy for a long time, starting at the beginning of DBZ where Piccolo confuses Raditz's extraordinary power for Goku before realising the energy is far too dark and malevolent to be his. The characters haven't been shown to sense magic, but they can sense evil ki and pure evil characters - kind of by definition - only fire evil ki. Mixed morality characters fire their mixed morality ki instead.
In Dragon Ball, ALL ki-using characters are capable of using moral ki because ki is inherently moral. My suggestion was basically taking this innate ability and refining it to an advanced level. Multiform is also a big hint that it's possible as it demonstrates not only the splitting of ki but also how a clone - and thus the clone's ki - naturally seeks to return to the original upon death. (It also hints that Fission is non-magical in nature, but that's beside the point.)
Ki can and should be able to be used to do a bunch of weird, esoteric things but is limited in a meta way by the existence of magic. In my opinion, it should not.
The other way I think you're handling magic wrong is you're making it a straightforward force. When you revealed the name of the Karmic Maelstrom, you also revealed that you'd been looking for a way to give magic its own beam attack. This implies that you're trying to make it more similar to ki in combat. This, in my opinion, is wrong. There are two reasons why I think it's wrong and the reasons contradict each other, but one of them is right.
The first reason is that you're undermining the dichotomy you're building of magic being the weird one and ki being the straightforward one. You're limiting ki a lot in the weirdness category but you're allowing magic to become so straightforward that it can be used to fire a beam attack. This undermines the dichotomy and takes away from the uniqueness that ki has.
Now the other reason why I think it's wrong. People developing a way for magic to do a beam attack makes sense since beam attacks permeate so much of Saiyan culture. It also shows that weird/straightforward dichotomy between magic and ki is a false one and they can intersect to do similar or even identical things given the right means and conditions. Unfortunately, while you're letting magic break the dichotomy, you're not doing the same for ki, making them unequal forces.
In other words, the first reason says the difference between ki and magic should be strict, and your attempt to make magic more similar to ki - evidenced by way of giving it a beam attack - blurs the line between the two. The second reason says that the beam attack proves that there shouldn't be as much of a difference between ki and magic, but you're limiting ki to an extent that while magic can be like ki, ki can't be like magic and that's unfair to ki.
Fair enough. I honestly interpreted it as the Saiyans being completely incapable of understanding houselessness, similar to Orks being incapable of understanding peace. The change in what it says in the OP has cleared that up.
You're right, I apologise.
[X] What?
[X] Continue planning.
-[X] How does this affect our chances? Does this give us any advantage?
[X] Continue vote in abeyance.
[X] Drop the Veil. It's a risk if Dad ever thinks he needs to read your mind, but if things get that bad you'll be running here anyway. You want to be able to remember this location.
Drop the Veil is the best option and is only anything but that if Dad uses Mind Delve on us. The thing is, he can't use Mind Delve on us any more. If he asks us for permission, we'll refuse. The fact that we did it before and we hated it is enough reason for us to never allow him to do it to us again, if only on principle. If he doesn't ask permission, we're a lot more powerful now. If he tries to Mind Delve us we'll just punch him with the power of a maxed out Super Saiyan. That he did it before and that we hated it would, again, provide enough reason as to why we're defying him, even to the point of violence.
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- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] What?
[X] Continue planning.
-[X] How does this affect our chances? Does this give us any advantage?
[X] Continue vote in abeyance.
[X] Meeting point. Nothing is totally secure, but this is more secure than most. This way the Senzus will be able to judge if something is wrong before coming to get you.
[X] Continue planning.
-[X] How does this affect our chances? Does this give us any advantage?
[X] Continue vote in abeyance.
[X] Meeting point. Nothing is totally secure, but this is more secure than most. This way the Senzus will be able to judge if something is wrong before coming to get you.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
[X] What?
[X] Continue planning.
-[X] How does this affect our chances? Does this give us any advantage?
[X] Continue vote in abeyance.
[X] Meeting point. Nothing is totally secure, but this is more secure than most. This way the Senzus will be able to judge if something is wrong before coming to get you.
I agree that if he's mind delving us everything has already gone tits-up, but unless we go Golden Oozaru the man is frankly a better fighter than us, and if we get in a knock-down fight where he's trying to delve us he'll have backup and we won't. We only need to be put on the back foot long enough for him to get the delve off for everything to go from tits-up right down to hell in a hand basket, and now I'm mixing phrases.
He'd still be able to mind delve this out of us? Unless you mean as a way to indicate we're at the meeting point, so send someone out to check on us, in which case that might make sense.
[X] Continue planning.
-[X] How does this affect our chances? Does this give us any advantage?
[X] Continue vote in abeyance.
[X] Meeting point. Nothing is totally secure, but this is more secure than most. This way the Senzus will be able to judge if something is wrong before coming to get you.
I agree that if he's mind delving us everything has already gone tits-up, but unless we go Golden Oozaru the man is frankly a better fighter than us, and if we get in a knock-down fight where he's trying to delve us he'll have backup and we won't. We only need to be put on the back foot long enough for him to get the delve off for everything to go from tits-up right down to hell in a hand basket, and now I'm mixing phrases.
He'd still be able to mind delve this out of us? Unless you mean as a way to indicate we're at the meeting point, so send someone out to check on us, in which case that might make sense.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
It opens their minds to possibilities and runs the risk of people finding out about ki from them, which would cause them to be more aware of people who might have power. Besides, they would want to know HOW Kakara knows this stuff.
Besides, I wouldn't take Poptart giving us a bonus to training them with ki as to mean it is ok for saiyan society. Do remember the legend under his name, "I will let them TRY anything".
Because we didn't pick tinkerer in charácter creation?
@Andres110 I don't think the Age-up as you described it would count as a ki technique either. From what I understand (I might be wrong) you wanted it to counter the disadvantages that come from being younger. If it were just a matter of reach then it wouldn't be a problem, since Piccolo already showed it could be done with ki. But you also mentioned:
which doesn't really make sense since it would be an increase in ki, which we already maxed regardless of our age and of our health, which doesn't make sense either since how much damage we can take depends on our ki too (unless you mean it as having more blood to bleed out). Furthermore, it would be a technique that increases our mass and our energy at the same time without being a proper transformation. If you want more ki to play with we could aim for Kaioken and if you want more life forcé for Kikoho there is Oozaru, which is already better for holding a kaioken than our adult body would be.
I mean, Four Witches and Multiform make sense in that they cost and divide our ki. Age-up as you described it sounds different, something like Piccolo growing giant and extending arms would be more in line with them.
He could potentially delve anything out of us, but the primary limit of Kakara signalling that she wants in by just bombarding the area with ki pings is the rest of the planet overhearing and starting to wonder.
It opens their minds to possibilities and runs the risk of people finding out about ki from them, which would cause them to be more aware of people who might have power. Besides, they would want to know HOW Kakara knows this stuff.
Besides, I wouldn't take Poptart giving us a bonus to training them with ki as to mean it is ok for saiyan society. Do remember the legend under his name, "I will let them TRY anything".
Because we didn't pick tinkerer in charácter creation?
So buy a couple of encrypted walkie talkies.
Anyway, it's probably time to ask grandma for some telepathy lessons.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
@PoptartProdigy
How would Saiyan Society take the idea of Kakara teaching her friends ki use? I figure Kakara would know this.
How would Saiyan Society take the idea of Kakara teaching her friends ki use? I figure Kakara would know this.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Just one thing to mention.
I'm not Poptart mind you, but I do know one or two little things.
Karmic Maelstrom isn't really a 'beam attack' persey, anymore then the Galick gun is Christmas lighting.
I'm also pretty sure Jaffurs style isn't magic
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
Now that is an idea I can get behind. We can use it to bother people in class! Nobody will believe them if they say they Heard us!
Oh, and it would be a good tactical advantage not having to rely our plan by talking and risking our oponents overhearing us...
Huh. Does anyone else get the feeling we are about to become paranoid about people conspiring against us using telepathy whenever two or more people are in the room with us?
HOW DO WE KNOW RADITZ DIDN'T TELL HIS BROTHER TO SAY WHAT HE DID? OR THAT GRANDMA WASN'T THE ONE TO TALK DOWN YANMAR? OR THAT THE HEAD OF PEAT DIDN'T INSTRUCT CELERAN WHAT TO SAY FROM AFFAR? They are all traitors! Off with their heads! Vaporize their bodies! It is the only way to be sure...
...
Ok, bored now. That got old kind of fast.
- Location
- Australia
There's a difference between power level and a ki pool: power level is output and ki pool is the fuel tank. Though an adult and a child might have the same power level, the adult has more ki. Goku couldn't maintain Super Saiyan 3 in GT for as long in his child body as in his adult body because his child body didn't have as much ki. Age-Up wouldn't increase our power level, but it would increase our maximum ki pool while it was active. Not useful on its own since Age-Up wouldn't increase the actual amount of ki she has, but if she charges her ki afterwards or eats a senzu bean she'd have more ki at her disposal than she'd otherwise be able to have.
That's what I meant.
The point of Age-Up isn't to slather ourselves with muscle and power, it's to increase the age of our body. You don't become slower just because you grow up.
Kaioken is increases ki output (power level), not the amount of ki someone has. As for the Great Ape transformation, it slows us down and takes time to transform into.
Giant Namek and stretchy arms are abilities Namekians get thanks to their physiology, they're not ki abilities.
Stretchy arms, probably, but I'm not so sure about turning giant, I don't think anyone but Piccolo ever did so.
- Location
- Australia
Lord Slug did and it's the special transformation available to Namekian characters in Xenoverse 2.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Between this, deceit and intrigue training, we're substantially shifting our focus away from combat it seems. I fully support this! Take 2 or 3 actions on it, and spend them on these, Ki tricks, understanding sorcery (and how to defend against it? Well if it's on the syllabus, I guess you can run me through it, teach...)
We're already more or less the strongest Saiyan on the planet (with the possible exception of Dad, when he's had a year to try sussing out Oozaru now he knows Golden Oozaru is a thing) and we've never liked fighting. We should be fine resting on our laurels a little.
...right?
I laughed at both of these.
Something I feel is important to remember is that Berra has specialized specifically as an SSJ2 killer using FPSSJ + Kaio-ken. He isn't going to be eager to break that out, but if push comes to shove...
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Well we aren't the combat focused Scion, so eventually we will start hitting diminishing returns compared to Jaffur/Jaron.
- Location
- Canada
[X] What?
Voting for complete confusion
Let's see what happens when she doesn't have anything prepared.
Being told that you are very much part of the most broken generation of Scions, perhaps Ever, has to be enough to fry her brain a little.
Voting for complete confusion
Let's see what happens when she doesn't have anything prepared.
Being told that you are very much part of the most broken generation of Scions, perhaps Ever, has to be enough to fry her brain a little.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I have noticed some of these issues before and am working to address them, yes. That would be the reason I'm taking Age-Up under consideration; the definitions themselves are shifting and so I'm not certain where it ultimately would fall.
That said, you are making some faulty assumptions about what my aims are for each system. While I do need to tweak my implementations in order to better match my intentions, the point of ki vs. magic is not that they're straightforward vs. weird. Magic is very much meant to be the art of literalization of concepts, opposed to ki's place as the energy of life. Again, I'm tweaking the system as I go, but that's what the ultimate aim is. Thus, there is a fair amount of overlap. For instance, you example of hypnosis; I have said in-thread that you can do that with ki. Many techniques can be approached with either method, it's just that they're not exactly as good as each other on all issues. And there are of course some exceptions, where there are things that can only be approached from one angle.
Karmic Maelstrom, for instance. That's not typical of me trying to move magic into a, "Can do anything," position so much as it's typical of me labeling that kind of literalization as a symptom of magic. The equivalent kind of internal resolution for a ki user would just be them bringing themselves into internal balance, reconciling their internal conflicts, and thereby unlocking access to the full depths of their ki by improving the "spirit" and "mind" aspects of their energy -- more of a "general health" upgrade than a blast.
You would have to justify it extensively. Others have covered the potential risk to the Masquerade, so I won't rehash it here, but that is naturally right at the forefront of the Exiles' minds. If you could convince them that it posed no threat to the Masquerade (in either a "nothing bad will happen," or a "damage already done" way), they would accept it, though not likely happily outside of the anti-Masquerade polities. If you couldn't make that justification, nobody would defend your choice and your friends would be earmarked for eventual saiyan husbands and close watches by the end of the day.
- Location
- United Kingdom
I think some people talked about it earlier, but I think this means that Jaffur can transform whilst trapped, and I don't think it can really help? Or at least, if it can help we won't know until we're actually unsealing him.
- Location
- Australia
...What the fuck? That sounds horrible. Does Saiyan society really do forced marriages?
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
It doesn't have to be a forced marriage per sey.
Theres a lot to say about a careful preplanned seduction by an eager young stud whose been promised the favor of his head of house.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Nope. But they are frightfully good at...arranging...things. By, say, surrounding a young lady with a bunch of young men who are incredibly attracted to her. The logic goes, eventually one of them will stick, and if you flood the market with them, the actual humans won't ever have a shot.
- Location
- Australia
@PoptartProdigy, would Maintain Your Skills be a good way of doing Improve Masque Affinity? We'd be training three different types of hand-to-hand, manipulating the ki within ourselves, and doing both of the above together in the form of the Combat skill. It's doing the same things that we'd do in our normal body and since we're at least Talented in almost all of those skills (Multiform is the only exception), we'd be able to spot and get used to the differences pretty easily I would think.
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