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So sorry about the wait, this weekend was-

*blink*

-busy. Evidently.

In general, Dragon Ball has very defined views of good and evil. It also, however, has points in between. At the time of Vegeta's death against Majin Buu, while he was indeed redeemed to an extent, he had on his karmic record a long list of sins not yet outweighed by any of the good he had done. Thus we see that good and evil are less absolute moral positions that you must act in perfect accordance with, one way or the other, and instead are more of a sliding scale. But all of that does not detract from the fact that there are unambiguous moral positions that the cosmology runs on, and while there exist points in between, those points exist in relation to the absolute end points. There is a concrete good and evil that Yemma judges you by, and he gives you a slot in the afterlife based on where, karmically, you fit.

People can and do exist at different points on the scale between good and evil, but Yemma has only two places for either. This is an amusingly bureaucratic notion of divine judgment -- each sin has a negative value attached, and each virtue a positive. What Yemma does is total this up. Positive end results move up, negatives go down.

So, as to the central question of how good and evil work in this quest? They work as I recounted above. Each act is either good or evil.

But, I don't discard the notion of nuance. Take the central spark of disagreement: Yammar and the Death of House Talt. Yammar tortured children to death emotionally and physically, all for the purpose of preserving saiyan society by shocking future revolts into submission. The question of the ultimate righteousness or wrongness of this action is answered by comparing the Dead Baby Sum of the situation (DBS) and comparing it against the Dead Baby Greater Total (DBGT) representing the number of people saved by this horrid, horrid act. Yemma would judge whether the Death of Talt was a righteous act or a sin, in other words, consequentially. If the number of lives spared by averted revolts is enough to outweigh the karmic weight of the torturous deaths of the Talts, then Yammar was a good man in that moment. It is...unlikely...though.

And none of this means a damn thing, because the Death of Talt was a single act committed years ago as part of a very long lifetime, and for all you know Yammar has been secretly crusading for good and justice out in the wider galaxy in order to wipe the stain of his crimes clean. Just because it's Dragon Ball doesn't mean morality became easy to the extent that you can make your call based on a single thing. There isn't a moral event horizon, either here or in the original Dragon Ball. That's one of the premises of the series -- people can be redeemed. They sometimes choose not to be. When Yammar goes to Yemma, maybe he'll be allowed into heaven based on the weight of good deeds that may or may not exist. But you don't know, and just like the real protagonists of Dragon Ball, you have to judge based on what you know of him. And I like complexity, so while there are final answers to the question of, "Is this person good or evil," I'm not going to make every villain be a puppy-kicking machine like Freeza. Some will be, yes. But people have reasons for how they act. I like Dragon Ball, but I would feel lazy by having everything be morally easy.

(Then again, some villains will be that evil. There are different kinds of moral difficulty, after all...:evil:)

So in short: y'all can stop worrying so much. Just work it out for yourselves.

To get back to my original point, sorry about the wait, this weekend was very busy. Update will be up tomorrow.
Going back to this for a second, it's likely Yenma is based on Enma, geddit, from Buddhism if you need to fill in some gaps in the cosmology.

Although I prefer Shinto myself.
 
You do know the incident where he killed a bunch of kids and was completely fine with it, right? You don't need more proof than that.
Objection! When did we see inside his head to know he's completely fine with it?

By that logic we can't judge Stalin or Ramses or any other mass-murderer evil on the sole basis that we didn't have information on every single facet of their lives.
The argument is we know nothing about his life SAVE for the one incident. You literally can't rule out him starting charities and doing volunteer work and crying himself to sleep every night about that terrible day. We don't know. Whereas the figures you are citing we have significant historical records on, not 100% thorough but enough to reasonably conclude.

This is, in short, strawmanning.

You have repeatedly ignored the raised point that we know almost nothing about him. I'm not proposing that the one year of his life we don't know he mighta saved the universe or something, I'm proposing that the overwhelming majority of his life we don't know may be filled with hard work, good will, redemption, and more, and we wouldn't know, because we know like three things about him.

And you are fixating on one of them. Your arguments have consistently ignored him and Apra wanting to unite the clans and stuff.

I mean, jeez, one of the more solid points of evidence in his favor is Apra being buddies to some extent with him. If he was as pure evil as you are trying to argue, unrepentant and awful, wouldn't she, you know, warn us away from him?

Hell, now that I think about it, Gohan warned us about Vegeta Vegeta and Jaffur- and not Yammar.

There's a lot of evidence I'd expect for his evil, if he was so absolutely horrid, that just isn't there.

Whenever any of these are brought up, you dismiss them, because reasons. While saying things that imply 'if he tried to redeem himself, it'd be different'. But we don't know he didn't, so it's entirely possible- I'd argue probable- there is redeeming qualities we simply haven't seen.
 
Hell, now that I think about it, Gohan warned us about Vegeta Vegeta and Jaffur- and not Yammar.
I don't think this is a very good argument. We hadn't even met Yammar and we weren't in any position to come in conflict him him, as oposed to Vegeta and Jaffur who we were interacting with every day.

..Was about to reply with a bunch of other stuff too, but fueling this debate might not be a good idea.
 
Discussing how everyone in DB should have swords now that swords are the coolest thing in DB?

Swords were always the coolest thing.

Yajirobe could match Goku in Dragonball after barely any training, and despite slacking off massively during the training with Mr Popo, was still the equal of the other humans and managed to cut Vegetas tail off.

Future Trunks also managed to split a cyborg in half with a single blow!
 
Denouement
[X] Nothing. You said you would mediate, and they have followed the rules. If this is their decision, it's their decision.

Unanimous.

Y'know what would be really good at distracting everybody?
Funny you should ask...

Denouement
The noise in response to Celeran's call is less a cheer than a shockwave. Thousands of voices, all raised as one, slam into you, and even with your strength, you rock back on your heels a bit. People howl in condemnation of Lady Vegeta, screaming for minutes on end. Seeking her out, you see her collapsing into her seat, white-faced as those around her hurl abuse at her.

Celeran makes several futile calls for order before simply letting them go for a few minutes. It's only when the crowd starts pressing in around Dandeer that you finally step forward.

You remember the sheer weight that a Full-Power Super Saiyan has in their voice to the ears of a normal saiyan, even though you can't hear it anymore. You bring that forth. "THAT'S ENOUGH."

And as if cut off with a knife, the cheering stops. "YOU MADE YOUR CHOICE. NOW LET HER GO."

The crowd mutter in discontentment, but slowly pulls away from her.

She doesn't even realize that they're letting her leave at first, so absorbed is she in the loss. It takes several minutes, and quite a few people jeering at her, before she starts in her seat and comes back to herself. She looks up and around. You realize that she's weeping.

She comes to her feet in a full-body shudder and looks around, mouth opening and closing. She grasps for something to say. But nothing comes.

"Lady Dandeer Vegeta, late of the House Falere," says Celeran, looking down at her, "you have been found by your peers to be unworthy of inclusion in the Faith of the Ancestors. By the decision of those gathered here today, we cast you out. You are no longer our sister; you are no longer our friend. From this day forth you are a traitor to the Faith."

She sags. "No..."

"You are not a mere outsider, for we do not expect everybody to believe as we do," says Celeran, inexorable. "You are one who has fallen. You are no longer welcome at our services. You are no longer welcome in our hearts. Wherever we go, you are outcast. And as such, you are no longer welcome here. This is a place of the Faith. There is no room for you here. Begone."

She doesn't move for a long moment, staring around in the hope that somebody will step forward in her defense.

And nobody does.

She slowly turns and leaves, every muscle in her body slumping in defeat. Everybody watches her go in hostile silence, until the moment the gate shuts behind her.

Celeran takes a quiet breath that only you see while everybody's attention is elsewhere, and looks lighter for it. Then he straightens. "With that attended to, I call for a brief recess, after which we will return to the other matters demanding our attention. Reconvene in five minutes."

* * *
From there, things are quiet. With both the Matriarch and Patriarch on the stage and you standing over the congregation in silent mediation, things are quiet. The talking turns to matters of bureaucracy.

As it turns out, the Cult does wind up investing Celeran with more central authority, as part of a general restructuring of the Cult to account for its increased numbers. The unofficial middle priesthood is formalized, and Celeran is granted the authority to rule on minor matters of interpretation of the holy texts.

But overall, he remains largely a distant figure, with no direct authority over the members of his congregation. The change is mostly to make the whole thing less unwieldy, and ensure that Celeran doesn't need to serve as the go-between for over a thousand different priests. Beyond that there are a few points of procedure and a handful of formal prayers that are apparently revolutionary to those gathered here. Your eyes glaze over a bit at those parts.

In general, things turn boring. The Council runs through the rest of the day and well into the night without significant strife. You slowly start to relax.

By the time things finish up, you're practically mellow.

As people start to disperse, Grandma comes up to you, waits for you to detransform, and gives you a big hug. "I'm so proud of you right now, Kakara. That was a very brave thing of you to do. And you did so well! This, the Golden Oozaru -- you're going from strength to strength these days, and in more ways than one. I couldn't be happier to be your Grandma."

You burrow into her arms, as much for the hug as to hide your happy smile. "Thank you, Grandma."

You feel Yammar stepping up, and stiffen. You pull away and look him in the eye.

He meets your gaze. "I must admit, I'm somewhat impressed as well. You didn't do poorly, which is impressive enough at your age." He cocks his head. "You don't like me, do you girl?"

You scowl, not answering.

"That's alright," he says, waving it aside. "You needn't. Some would say it's better that way." Without the slightest change in pace or tone, he launches into a criticism. "Next time be surer of yourself. You hesitated a few times, and the more perceptive members of the audience will be catching onto that about now. If you can avoid that next time, you'll have them all." And with that, he turns away. "Apra. Always a pleasure."

"Yammar," she says, nodding.

He flies off towards the gate, ignoring everything.

Grandma catches your attention by laying her hand on your shoulder. "Everybody is starting to leave, now. We're all tired, after today. But you should have some time to go talk to your new friend before she goes. Go on. I need to speak with Celeran before I leave." She smiles at you and heads off towards the High Priest.

* * *
[ ] Go see Fennella before you go.
[ ] Tag along with Grandma to go see High Priest Celeran.
[ ] Talk to somebody else.
-[ ] Who?
[ ] Leave immediately.
[ ] Wander the crowd.
[ ] Write in.

THIS VOTE IS NOW CLOSED.

You have enough time before people disperse to speak to any one person or do any one thing.

The next post will conclude the mini-event. Enjoy, everybody!
 
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[] Go see Fennella before you go.

Go social linking
 
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Dandeer got fucked up with moral vengeance.

Couldn't have happened to a more deserving lady. Especially when she goes beserk and we have just cause to call her actions into scrutiny due to mental issues.

But yeah seems like seeing our friends the way too go, hopefully she doesn't mind that we delivered so much Holy justice on so many asses today.

Also that Yanmar bit just confirm she it too me, he hates himself as much as everyone else does, only gran understands what he went through and how much he hates itself for it.
 
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