Dragon Ball: After the End

Gore17 · Nov 11, 2016

Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - Dragon Ball: After the End | Page 170 | Sufficient Velocity
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[X] Nothing. You said you would mediate, and they have followed the rules. If this is their decision, it's their decision.
No. of Votes: 22

Total No. of Voters: 22

Well, this is a very clear result.

KaintukeeBob · Nov 11, 2016

Just to note: they are not voting on killing her. We have made the chances of that happening roughly 0, and made the consequences for the attempt abundantly clear.

We may later meditate on the use of threats of violence to ensure peace, but this isn't the time or the place.

They are just voting on kicking her out of their organized(ish) religion.

Kakara doesn't care if Dandeer gets her membership card cut up and her yearly dues seized without refund. She's a meanie poopy-head, and she hurt our...~~friend acquaintance~~ jerk. We promised her a fair hearing, and she got one and it got the right answer. So :sour:

to her.

Shane_357 · Nov 11, 2016

It occurs that Pacifist Style could make use of specific stances that use body language that evokes calm and friendliness. That could give us a boost to calming people down in a fight.

Andres · Nov 11, 2016

I'm still fully of the opinion that Pacifist Style is misguided. Fighting should be avoided when possible, but when it's unavoidable maximum efficiency to take down the enemy should be used. Compromising potential efficiency to avoid harming the enemy is naive and will get innocent people hurt.

anailater · Nov 12, 2016

Andres110 said:
I'm still fully of the opinion that Pacifist Style is misguided. Fighting should be avoided when possible, but when it's unavoidable maximum efficiency to take down the enemy should be used. Compromising potential efficiency to avoid harming the enemy is nothing more than delusional naivety.

Well I'm not sure about phrasing it in such a mean and shitty way, however I have to agree on the general idea, that avoiding pain is a bad idea.

I don't want to kill people, but I don't mind crippling someone to save others.

Also lets all be clear here the enemy is exempt from our no kill rule.
That shits going down.

Andres · Nov 12, 2016

anailater said:
Well I'm not sure about phrasing it in such a mean and shitty way

Edited my post. Better now?

Aranfan · Nov 12, 2016

So I think this has actually gone pretty damn well.

Bakkasama · Nov 12, 2016

Aranfan said:
So I think this has actually gone pretty damn well.

We have yet to see how Dandeer's future breakdown from being cast out turns out, though.

Terrabrand · Nov 12, 2016

[X] Nothing. You said you would mediate, and they have followed the rules. If this is their decision, it's their decision.

PoptartProdigy said:
and the biggest spider you will ever see in the USA out of captivity is a brown recluse,

Just wanted to comment on this: no, there are some rather large spiders in parts of the country. I know, I used to live in an area with spiders my mom joked could 'carry off small children'/

PoptartProdigy said:
Man, y'all panicked. Nothing failed, it's just that Yammar is a critical asshole who likes to be as abrasive as possible when he critiques somebody's actions. He actually likes you a little bit. :lol

At this point? I kinda like him, too.

PoptartProdigy said:
And it's honestly pretty valid as well. I didn't expect you all to guess that he was supposed to be there; there weren't any hints to that effect, after all. But from Yammar's perspective it was an opportunity to teach a Scion a lesson on assumptions and to sneak in a snub at a Gokun noble all at once.

See above!

Bakkasama said:
I also find it curious how Yanmar argued about it. I mean, it sounded pro-masquerade but grandma all but admitted that that they were both against it, what with their plan to unify the clans, lift the restrictions and go to space. Granted, it is posible that he is playing the crowd or he changed his opinión dur to the current situation...

It sounds pro-stability with 'illegal disruptions of the masquerade' being, you know, anti-stability.

rkyeun · Nov 12, 2016

PoptartProdigy said:
Yammar is a critical asshole who likes to be as abrasive as possible when he critiques somebody's actions.

More important than him being an asshole is that he was right in his criticism. We done goofed, and he was right to smack us down. We need to put our feelings aside and thank him for it. We can keep hating him after. We may be destined to become their god, and we absolutely cannot afford to reduce everyone around us to cowering sycophants. We're going to be wrong sometimes, and with our power and following that has the potential to be a whole lot of fucking up really fast. We need to establish now a habit of rewarding those who stand up and correct us or prevent us from making mistakes. Especially when we're mad at them and hate them, because that's exactly when we're least likely to listen and most in need of it. And we especially especially need to learn this lesson, and hard, if we're going for a pacifist run.

Bakkasama · Nov 12, 2016

Best way to thank him would be to show we learned his lesson, rather than thanking him for being an asshole and lose the progress we earned by showing a spine and @Aranfan cookie.

Andres · Nov 12, 2016

Terrabrand said:
At this point? I kinda like him, too.

I don't. He tortured children to death. Based on his dialogue, he not only doesn't have a hint of regret, but he also has pride for doing so. Don't let the jerkassery fool you, he's evil.

rkyeun said:
We need to establish now a habit of rewarding those who stand up and correct us or prevent us from making mistakes.

Familiarity breeds contempt. If we make it a habit of rewarding people to people who point out mistakes we make we'll just look bad, especially compared to those who don't. We'll look incompetent and weak.

Bakkasama said:
Best way to thank him would be to show we learned his lesson, rather than thanking him for being an asshole and lose the progress we earned by showing a spine and @Aranfan cookie.

Indeed.

Aranfan · Nov 12, 2016

Andres110 said:
I don't. He tortured children to death. Based on his dialogue, he not only doesn't have a hint of regret, but he also has pride for doing so. Don't let the jerkassery fool you, he's evil.

Indeed.

Lailoken · Nov 12, 2016

Andres110 said:
I don't. He tortured children to death. Based on his dialogue, he not only doesn't have a hint of regret, but he also has pride for doing so. Don't let the jerkassery fool you, he's evil.

I swear to god, you disassemble one orphan, and nobody ever lets you live it down. Like you've never taken something apart and forgotten how to put it back together, Mr. Perfect.

Aranfan · Nov 12, 2016

@PoptartProdigy

How comes the update?

Gore17 · Nov 13, 2016

Lailoken said:
I swear to god, you disassemble one orphan, and nobody ever lets you live it down. Like you've never taken something apart and forgotten how to put it back together, Mr. Perfect.

I have not, and you're not supposed to disassemble living people, especially orphans, outside of very specific circumstances.

Sucal · Nov 13, 2016

Gore17 said:
I have not, and you're not supposed to disassemble living people, especially orphans, outside of very specific circumstances.

But how else are you meant to make orphan biofuel? Reduce reuse and reanimate , ut solves the homeless and hungry problems at the same time!

Terrabrand · Nov 13, 2016

Andres110 said:
I don't. He tortured children to death. Based on his dialogue, he not only doesn't have a hint of regret, but he also has pride for doing so. Don't let the jerkassery fool you, he's evil.

Quite frankly, I do not give a fuck about your moral judgment. I can like him as a person and/or character even if I rule him as evil, and I don't agree with the reasoning you give for why he is so auto evil anyways.

Obviously, he's not a saint. Who is? We don't know nearly enough to say whether he is, morally, better or worse than Berra, Apra, etc. If we judge him entirely by outcomes, it sounds like he went a long way to avoid recent rebellion. If we judge him entirely by intent... When did we learn the inside of his mind? We didn't. You can say you wouldn't torture children no matter what, but his behavior could easily be about trying to control social image or similar, not a desire to torture children.

Andres110 said:
Familiarity breeds contempt. If we make it a habit of rewarding people to people who point out mistakes we make we'll just look bad, especially compared to those who don't. We'll look incompetent and weak.

A mindset you ironically agree with in the same post. While saying he's definite complete evil and totes irredeemable and implying the only way I could like him was to be fooled. Don't do that.

Andres · Nov 13, 2016

Terrabrand said:
Obviously, he's not a saint. Who is?

Arale, Goku, Gohan, Chi-Chi, Goten, Kami, Dende, Guru, Trunks, Uub, Majin Buu, possibly Endivan, Tarble, and Gure, and maybe a few more I'm forgetting are all pure of heart and are thus proverbial saints.

Terrabrand said:
We don't know nearly enough to say whether he is, morally, better or worse than Berra, Apra, etc.

Yes we do. He tortured children to death. This isn't 40k or Evangelion or any other edgy setting where moral grey is a big thing, nor is it real life where it (arguably) operates on "evil is relative and ambiguous". This is Dragon Ball and in Dragon Ball the kind of person who tortures children to death is unambiguously evil. Perhaps not irredeemably evil considering Vegeta, but still definitely without a doubt evil.

Terrabrand · Nov 13, 2016

Andres110 said:
Yes we do. He tortured children to death. This isn't 40k or Evangelion or any other edgy settings were moral grey is a big thing, nor is it real life where it (arguably) operates on "evil is relative". This is Dragon Ball and in Dragon Ball the kind of person who tortures children to death is unambiguously evil. Perhaps not irredeemably evil considering Vegeta, but still definitely without a doubt evil.

... Okay @PoptartProdigy, is this correct, that magically the fact that this is a DBZ fanf quest means we will operate under 'what DBZ would do' as overuling real world considerations, not in terms of physics but rather in terms of 'tropes apply over reason'?

Cause, A: if so, I might have to drop the quest, and B:, guys, we just need to punch Yammar in the face a bunch. Then he'll be good, like Vegeta.

Seriously, don't try to act like it has to fit the tone of the source material. That is patent nonsense.

Andres110 said:
Arale, Goku, Gohan, Chi-Chi, Goten, Kami, Dende, Guru, Trunks, Uub, Majin Buu, and maybe a few more I'm forgetting are

Okay. Can you give me the standards of sainthood that DBZ uses that means Majin Buu qualifies having wiped out all humanity at one point, and yet proves that there is no possible alignment that might apply to Yammar other than 'evil', when, again, we still don't know what was going on in his head? And don't actually know the thorough details of the surounding events, for that matter.

Again, you yourself are arguing for doing something, not for moral reasons, but image, in the same post you told me not to be fooled. A point you have by no means addressed.

You are entitled to your opinion of Yammar's character, of course- but acting like I'm being gullible, stupid, or factually and indisputably incorrect, just for saying I like the character and we can not definitely and 100% rule him as morally evil? That's bullshit. He may have done a definitively wrong thing, but note he immediately owned up to fucking up with his son when he showed up. We do not know why he did what he did, and without that info this insinuation that I must be being fooled by him to like him is unreasonable.

Aranfan · Nov 13, 2016

Terrabrand said:
Can you give me the standards of sainthood that DBZ uses that means Majin Buu qualifies having wiped out all humanity at one point

Different buus.

Gore17 · Nov 13, 2016

Terrabrand said:
... Okay @PoptartProdigy, is this correct, that magically the fact that this is a DBZ fanf quest means we will operate under 'what DBZ would do' as overuling real world considerations, not in terms of physics but rather in terms of 'tropes apply over reason'?

Cause, A: if so, I might have to drop the quest, and B:, guys, we just need to punch Yammar in the face a bunch. Then he'll be good, like Vegeta.

Seriously, don't try to act like it has to fit the tone of the source material. That is patent nonsense.

...That's not what he was saying. He was saying that Good and Evil are defined things in the Dragon Ball setting.

Lailoken · Nov 13, 2016

Well, I find him charming.

Andres · Nov 13, 2016

Terrabrand said:
Seriously, don't try to act like it has to fit the tone of the source material. Thst is patent nonsense.

Fitting the tone of the source material is very important for a fan creation. If this quest, for example, was as grimdark and serious as 40k it wouldn't be a Dragon Ball game any more, it would just be a game with a Dragon Ball skin. That said, this was what I meant:

Gore17 said:
He was saying that Good and Evil are defined things in the Dragon Ball setting.

Terrabrand said:
Majin Buu qualifies having wiped out all humanity at one point

I'm talking about end-of-series Majin Buu. Super Buu, Kid Buu, and Majin Buu before he was eaten by Evil Buu all had evil in them.

Terrabrand said:
You are entitled to your opinion of Yammar's character, of course- but acting like I'm being gullible, stupid, or factually and indisputably incorrect, just for saying I like the character and we can not definitely and 100% rule him as morally evil?

By "don't be fooled" I didn't mean to imply you were a fool, I was using it in its form as a colloquial expression so that the sentence would mean "While jerkasses are typically portrayed in media as 'not that bad' compared to truly evil characters, Yammar is a truly evil character even though the epithet of 'jerkass' also applies to him." It was also addressed to a general audience as a means of expressing my general opinion, it wasn't targeted towards yourself specifically, though with the quote beforehand I can see how that may've been misinterpreted.

Terrabrand · Nov 13, 2016

I'm hungry and need to eat something soon and feel like there is a miscommunication here, but..

Andres110 said:
Fitting the tone of the source material is very important for a fan creation. If this quest, for example, was as grimdark and serious as 40k it wouldn't be a Dragon Ball game any more, it would just be a game with a Dragon Ball skin.

I firmly disagree with this. Barring explicit AUs, the actualy lore, physics, history, etc, are what needs to be adhered to. There is nothing wrong with specifically having a matching tone to the original material, but, heck, a stories sequel may have a starkly different tone. Different instalments of a long running series may have a wide range of tones. There's no reason to say it can't be a DBZ quest if it is darker or whatever, and a lot of reasons of exploring story spaces and such like why such is perfectly legit design.

As for the general topic, I'm bowing out, I'm too out of it to entirely follow the conversation at this point, and am not convinced we haven't been talking past each other for the most part.

Dragon Ball: After the End

Banned Forever

Team Plasma Grunt

There is always a greater fool

the Ordainer

Cabbitus Maximus

There is always a greater fool

Team Plasma Grunt

Team Plasma Grunt

The Devil’s Cut

the Ordainer

the Ordainer

Team Plasma Grunt

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