The Super manga has Goku and Vegeta casually using it for three days/years at some point - I think it was right before the first tournament - and made no mention of use-limits. Then again, I have no idea why they wouldn't have used it for learning Ultra Instinct, so: *noclue.jpg*
well, Vegeta decided that Ultra Instinct is not for him, as it goes against his fighting style and he doesn't want to "learn from others", as he always achieved more power by himself
Goku...well, after the tournament he was in no hurry to master it (or maybe simply didn't know how to go about it), and when the next enemy came up (Moro in the manga) he went with what his new teacher/training partner suggested, and he simply brought him to his own time chamber, the 1day=3day one.
This seems unlikely, given the hard time limits imposed by an HTC. In any case I know I'd prefer the ability to freely use a low SSJ2 power level on Garenhuld to having a higher-PL group that can't be used without bringing the Enemy down on our heads, for the simple reason that 3 years is not enough to go from FPSSJ to SSG, which is the minimum required to be relevant against the Enemy using Gohan's fresh ascension to SSG (and fresh ascensions get a temporary boost, if Jaffur and us in the prologue as SSJs apply to SSG) as the lower bound required, and probably isn't enough even then.
you know, Let's see how fast could one saiyan become strong in optimal conditions. I won't mention Golden Oozaru for now, as it doesn't really require much extra training beyond mastery of the oozaru form. I still hope for that Ssj4-like form that would combine the strenghts/powers of base and oozaru form, but we have no clue about how it would work (or if it's even possible, or what would the requirements be). I kinda expect Jaffur to discover it if we ever manage to free him and don't have Kakara do it first
I'm also ignoring boosting tricks like overcharge, ki refinement and kaio-ken.
15 million cap: I'll assume most saiyan fighters are already here. Those who aren't can get here by abusing the zenkai, or simply go for the transformation and skip the diminishing returns. Zenkai can also be abused to raise base power level after every transformation, especially if senzu or healing magic is available. Some time will be necessary to then get used to the new power level of course, but it's hard to say how long it would take.
I'll add that, if new transformations are available, it's usually optimal to skip the diminishing returns and go for the new form when possible
Super Saiyan 140 millions + 70 base: the true starting point. The easiest transformation to achieve once you have a power level in the millions. Psychological help to understand the optimal way to push someone to transform might be usefull, and could actually be a reason for the exile to develop the field (if i remember right they actually disdain it a bit).
The 70 million base can be reached faster by abusing the zenkai. Higher base probably makes training for the FPSSJ easier/faster, as your body can more easily adapt to the increased power.
Full Power Super Saiyan 750 millions + 375 millions base: If you know what you're doing you can achieve it in less than a year of dedicated training. Maybe as little as 6 months if you're talented/dedicated enough. This is the third soft cap (after 15M of base and 210M of maxed base ssj), and the first truly difficult one.
Super Saiyan 2: 2x of ssj boost, so 1.5B+ 375M (750M once trained to new base cap): Here we have the first problem. The transformation requires an "epiphany", and that's not something as easy to provoke as the "need" and "anger" required for the basic SSJ. Again, a development in the field of psychology might help understand how to do it, but it's not easy and it will mostly be beyond anyone's control.
I suppose that, in optimal conditions, one could have a "convenient" epiphany somewhere in the middle of FPSSJ training, so let's say that the best case scenario is that you get it right after the 6 months to 1 year of training required for that.
For the rest, I'll use spoilers from the RP on the Power level of the next forms and their requirements. Feel free to stop read here if you prefer to not know them
Full Power Super Saiyan 2: 15B + 7.5B base. 22.5B total: The training is similar to that for FPSSJ, except that it takes much longer because holding the ssj2 form is a lot more tiring. Mystic Gohan was more or less at this level, as (from what I've understood) the potential unleashed ritual basically gave him the max power of a ssj2 in his base form. Goku and Vegeta, even with all their training, didn't reach this cap by the time of the Buu Saga.
Something to notice is that, as your ssj2 boost rises, so does the normal ssj one, keeping itself to half that of the ss2. That means that, once you reach the cap of +15B from FPSSJ2 you'd have a +7.5B from FPSSJ, and a 7.5B from base.
that means:
Base= 7.5B
Base+FPSSJ=15B.
Base+ FPSSJ2=22.5B
So, bad news: it takes more than 7 years of Goku/Vegeta level of training to get to ssj2. We might be a bit faster than them as exiles have training down to a science plus possibly hundreds of senzu to recover faster, but as nobody can really train 24/7 for that long I'll say that even an exceptionally gifted Saiyan that abuses healing magic and senzu to recover after being exhausted can't achieve this new cap in less than 5 years.
The good news is: you don't have to wait for the cap to go for higher forms!
SSJ3= 4x the ssj2 boost. that means that a maxed FPSSJ2 who achieves the ssj3 form and trains the base to the max can reach the following caps:
Base= 30B
Base+FPSSJ=30B+7.5B=37.5B
Base+ FPSSJ2=30B+15B=45B
Base+ basic SSJ3=30B+60B= 90B
Now, SSJ3 is a bit special. It doesn't actually require for you to train the ssj2 before you achieve it, and in some ways it's closer to a grade 3 equivalent of the ssj2 (the buffed form future trunks used) that a new transformation.
You CAN'T really train to use it without effort like you can for FPSSJ and FPSSJ2. Going beyond 100B total with it would take you longer than a natural lifespan, as a mortal body is simply incapable of truly adapting to the form. That makes FPSSJ3 basically impossible to achieve, though I imagine if one had a literally infinite amount of senzu at his disposal it might be possible to go reach that point. It would probably take a senzu every few minutes though, as the SSJ3 form tires the user THAT quickly.
Poptart and FourthMonado hinted there might actually be a different, TRUE/ALTERNATIVE undiscovered form possible that might make it possible.
To achieve it there are only two requirements
1)Have SSJ2
2)Really understand (and maybe accept, not sure) yourself.
definitely not easy. I can see Kakara achieving that level of introspection, but it's probably beyond most saiyans. Beyond most people really.
So, up to now we have 6 months to a year for FPSSJ, and 5-10 years for FPSSJ2+ ssj3 and maxed base IF we're not considering the difficulty of getting an epiphany and the required level of introspection. Also assuming you're abusing the zenkai to avoid training the Base normally.
and this is an OPTIMISTIC scenario!
Still, we have THE cheat at our disposal: the god forms!
Saiyan God. Power level cap=?
Neither Poptart or the FourthMonado ever mentioned specific numbers for the god forms. For all we know they might not have a true cap, just diminishing returns.
There are 2 ways to achieve it.
1)The God Ritual: The Goku way, 5 saiyans of pure heart have to send their ki into a 6th (presumably of pure heart as well) saiyan. You then have to learn to use/produce god ki by yourself before the transformation ends.
2)The Vegeta way (and in some way the Future Trunks (from super) way too): be trained by a god, or fight against a god, and NEED IT.
in the rp there were a few saiyan gods who never achieved ssj (past timeline before ssj was discovered, the origin of the saiyan god legend), and i think they were relatively close to the strenght of a FPSSJ. somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5 times a FPSSJ, I don't remember exactly.
IF we get the time chamber nothing stops us from using the ritual in them, so it's a quick cheat to become stronger. I am of course ignoring the problem of deciding WHO exactly gets the form and how to keep knowledge of the ritual secret, as I'm focusing mostly on the forms we can achieve, how quickly they can be achieved, and how strong they are.
The fact the user must be of pure heart does help a bit though.
We know that a Goku who had achieved ssj3 (though he probably had not mastered FPSSJ2 yet) and uses saiyan god was maybe a bit above half as strong as Beerus/Bills, the god of destruction.
Saiyan Rage (Trunks' berserk form in the Goku Black Arc): this is kind of an imperfect SSJ GOD/Blue. It's basically a saiyan god going ssj, but as he doesn't have the required "perfect ki control" he goes berserk. I presume it's weaker than SSJ God/Blue, but stronger than Saiyan God.
again, no idea about the numbers.
SSJ GOD/Blue= A Saiyan God that goes SSJ. Requires perfect Ki control. first showed against Golden Frieza.
I can only presume that the "perfect ki control" would be translated here as Elite/Legendary ki control, or maybe a specific elite+ talent.
No idea how long it might take to reach. Goku and Vegeta did it relatively quickly, but they were being trainer by Whis (in that strange place inside his scepter where they were not actually able to move unless they avoided any waste of ki)
so, in conclusion:
6 months to 1 year to FPSSJ.
probably 5-10 years to FPSS2. epiphany required
SSJ3 not really trainable, but it does give a pretty big boost both to max power and max base cap. incredibly hard-to-reach level of introspection required. no extra time to train it beyond that required to train the base and FPSSJ2
There might possibly be an hidden form beyond/alternative to ssj3, but we have NO IDEA how to reach it.
A SSJ4-like form should exist (it appeared in the RP), but we don't know how it works. I presume it might allow us to use oozaru base while staying normal-size, or maybe it combines normal and oozaru base.
God form: easy with the ritual, if we can use it in a safe place (time chamber). I suppose there's a risk the ritual might create some kind of "hole" in the dimension like Gotenks and Buu did by screaming though. IF the enemy can't sense God Ki that would make training it easier, but we have no way to know if he/she/it can.
SSJ God/Blue: no matter how much one trains, this form is only for the best of the best.
Side-note: Gilded form: In the RP there's a character (Poptart's) that came up with an interesting idea: contain the ki of the ssj form in the body, reducing the waste-leakage of energy. It means you can't use as much Ki-based attacks, but your physical/melee strenght rises up by a lot. It REQUIRES FPSSJ to use, and it might be possible to use with FPSSJ2 as well. optimal use would raise the power of the form by up to 50%.
@PoptartProdigy Anything to add/comment? Did i miss anything/get anything wrong?
EDIT: corrected the max of base/transformed FPSSJ. it's 375 and 750, not 350 and 700. A small mistake
We know that The Enemy appears to be male and magical - something like a rot mage or something. Going by Kakara's vision of it, anyway. We've been leery of the god forms because we're worried that The Enemy can sense god ki on a galactic scale.
It might still be useful, if the god form increases base cap? I'm expecting to learn a lot more about what we can get away with if we make it to heaven.
We know that The Enemy appears to be male and magical - something like a rot mage or something. Going by Kakara's vision of it, anyway. We've been leery of the god forms because we're worried that The Enemy can sense god ki on a galactic scale.
It might still be useful, if the god form increases base cap? I'm expecting to learn a lot more about what we can get away with if we make it to heaven.
The enemy is a "Void" mage. THE void mage actually. He's basically an Unperson.
He makes things not exist anymore. If he hurts you with his magic you can't be healed because he basically erases the CONCEPT of the existance of the things he destroys. Your body was never unhurt as far as metaphysics care about it.
If he kills you, he erases you SOUL. No heaven or hell for you.
As he's the first mage to ever channel the power of the void in the whole multiverse that makes him even stronger than a normal void mage would be.
In other words, other void mages in the future (or even in other timelines) will usually be weaker than OUR Enemy.
No idea if he can sense God Ki, but even if he can we can train the form in the chambers. and we'll NEED god form to become strong enough to actually face him, though it has been stated that his main weakness (beyond simply "go for even more power") would be "existance" magic.
Sadly, Kakara doesn't have magic.
Luckily, Jaffur does.
God Form SHOULD raise the base cap, though no idea by how much it would be. Going to Heaven would certainly be usefull to learn about It, and get some advice. I doubt the Z fighters discovered any new forms, but they are certainly stronger, and their knowledge and training would be useful
be carefull if you quote spoilered things, you know Poptart doesn't want rp things in plain sight.
Honestly, if we get around to actually facing the Enemy in this quest, I fully expect Kakara and Jaffur to use a fusion technique. Imagine it. It would be glorious.
Honestly, if we get around to actually facing the Enemy in this quest, I fully expect Kakara and Jaffur to use a fusion technique. Imagine it. It would be glorious.
you know, Let's see how fast could one saiyan become strong in optimal conditions. I won't mention Golden Oozaru for now, as it doesn't really require much extra training beyond mastery of the oozaru form. I still hope for that Ssj4-like form that would combine the strenghts/powers of base and oozaru form, but we have no clue about how it would work (or if it's even possible, or what would the requirements be). I kinda expect Jaffur to discover it if we ever manage to free him and don't have Kakara do it first
I'm also ignoring boosting tricks like overcharge, ki refinement and kaio-ken.
15 million cap: I'll assume most saiyan fighters are already here. Those who aren't can get here by abusing the zenkai, or simply go for the transformation and skip the diminishing returns. Zenkai can also be abused to raise base power level after every transformation, especially if senzu or healing magic is available. Some time will be necessary to then get used to the new power level of course, but it's hard to say how long it would take.
I'll add that, if new transformations are available, it's usually optimal to skip the diminishing returns and go for the new form when possible
Super Saiyan 140 millions + 70 base: the true starting point. The easiest transformation to achieve once you have a power level in the millions. Psychological help to understand the optimal way to push someone to transform might be usefull, and could actually be a reason for the exile to develop the field (if i remember right they actually disdain it a bit).
The 70 million base can be reached faster by abusing the zenkai. Higher base probably makes training for the FPSSJ easier/faster, as your body can more easily adapt to the increased power.
Full Power Super Saiyan 750 millions + 375 millions base: If you know what you're doing you can achieve it in less than a year of dedicated training. Maybe as little as 6 months if you're talented/dedicated enough. This is the third soft cap (after 15M of base and 210M of maxed base ssj), and the first truly difficult one.
Super Saiyan 2: 2x of ssj boost, so 1.4B+ 375M (750M once trained to new base cap): Here we have the first problem. The transformation requires an "epiphany", and that's not something as easy to provoke as the "need" and "anger" required for the basic SSJ. Again, a development in the field of psychology might help understand how to do it, but it's not easy and it will mostly be beyond anyone's control.
I suppose that, in optimal conditions, one could have a "convenient" epiphany somewhere in the middle of FPSSJ training, so let's say that the best case scenario is that you get it right after the 6 months to 1 year of training required for that.
For the rest, I'll use spoilers from the RP on the Power level of the next forms and their requirements. Feel free to stop read here if you prefer to not know them
Full Power Super Saiyan 2: 15B + 7.5B base. 22.5B total: The training is similar to that for FPSSJ, except that it takes much longer because holding the ssj2 form is a lot more tiring. Mystic Gohan was more or less at this level, as (from what I've understood) the potential unleashed ritual basically gave him the max power of a ssj2 in his base form. Goku and Vegeta, even with all their training, didn't reach this cap by the time of the Buu Saga.
Something to notice is that, as your ssj2 boost rises, so does the normal ssj one, keeping itself to half that of the ss2. That means that, once you reach the cap of +15B from FPSSJ2 you'd have a +7.5B from FPSSJ, and a 7.5B from base.
that means:
Base= 7.5B
Base+FPSSJ=15B.
Base+ FPSSJ2=22.5B
So, bad news: it takes more than 7 years of Goku/Vegeta level of training to get to ssj2. We might be a bit faster than them as exiles have training down to a science plus possibly hundreds of senzu to recover faster, but as nobody can really train 24/7 for that long I'll say that even an exceptionally gifted Saiyan that abuses healing magic and senzu to recover after being exhausted can't achieve this new cap in less than 5 years.
The good news is: you don't have to wait for the cap to go for higher forms!
SSJ3= 4x the ssj2 boost. that means that a maxed FPSSJ2 who achieves the ssj3 form and trains the base to the max can reach the following caps:
Base= 30B
Base+FPSSJ=30B+7.5B=37.5B
Base+ FPSSJ2=30B+15B=45B
Base+ basic SSJ3=30B+60B= 90B
Now, SSJ3 is a bit special. It doesn't actually require for you to train the ssj2 before you achieve it, and in some ways it's closer to a grade 3 equivalent of the ssj2 (the buffed form future trunks used) that a new transformation.
You CAN'T really train to use it without effort like you can for FPSSJ and FPSSJ2. Going beyond 100B total with it would take you longer than a natural lifespan, as a mortal body is simply incapable of truly adapting to the form. That makes FPSSJ3 basically impossible to achieve, though I imagine if one had a literally infinite amount of senzu at his disposal it might be possible to go reach that point. It would probably take a senzu every few minutes though, as the SSJ3 form tires the user THAT quickly.
Poptart and FourthMonado hinted there might actually be a different, TRUE/ALTERNATIVE undiscovered form possible that might make it possible.
To achieve it there are only two requirements
1)Have SSJ2
2)Really understand (and maybe accept, not sure) yourself.
definitely not easy. I can see Kakara achieving that level of introspection, but it's probably beyond most saiyans. Beyond most people really.
So, up to now we have 6 months to a year for FPSSJ, and 5-10 years for FPSSJ2+ ssj3 and maxed base IF we're not considering the difficulty of getting an epiphany and the required level of introspection. Also assuming you're abusing the zenkai to avoid training the Base normally.
and this is an OPTIMISTIC scenario!
Still, we have THE cheat at our disposal: the god forms!
Saiyan God. Power level cap=?
Neither Poptart or the FourthMonado ever mentioned specific numbers for the god forms. For all we know they might not have a true cap, just diminishing returns.
There are 2 ways to achieve it.
1)The God Ritual: The Goku way, 5 saiyans of pure heart have to send their ki into a 6th (presumably of pure heart as well) saiyan. You then have to learn to use/produce god ki by yourself before the transformation ends.
2)The Vegeta way (and in some way the Future Trunks (from super) way too): be trained by a god, or fight against a god, and NEED IT.
in the rp there were a few saiyan gods who never achieved ssj (past timeline before ssj was discovered, the origin of the saiyan god legend), and i think they were relatively close to the strenght of a FPSSJ. somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5 times a FPSSJ, I don't remember exactly.
IF we get the time chamber nothing stops us from using the ritual in them, so it's a quick cheat to become stronger. I am of course ignoring the problem of deciding WHO exactly gets the form and how to keep knowledge of the ritual secret, as I'm focusing mostly on the forms we can achieve, how quickly they can be achieved, and how strong they are.
The fact the user must be of pure heart does help a bit though.
We know that a Goku who had achieved ssj3 (though he probably had not mastered FPSSJ2 yet) and uses saiyan god was maybe a bit above half as strong as Beerus/Bills, the god of destruction.
Saiyan Rage (Trunks' berserk form in the Goku Black Arc): this is kind of an imperfect SSJ GOD/Blue. It's basically a saiyan god going ssj, but as he doesn't have the required "perfect ki control" he goes berserk. I presume it's weaker than SSJ God/Blue, but stronger than Saiyan God.
again, no idea about the numbers.
SSJ GOD/Blue= A Saiyan God that goes SSJ. Requires perfect Ki control. first showed against Golden Frieza.
I can only presume that the "perfect ki control" would be translated here as Elite/Legendary ki control, or maybe a specific elite+ talent.
No idea how long it might take to reach. Goku and Vegeta did it relatively quickly, but they were being trainer by Whis (in that strange place inside his scepter where they were not actually able to move unless they avoided any waste of ki)
so, in conclusion:
6 months to 1 year to FPSSJ.
probably 5-10 years to FPSS2. epiphany required
SSJ3 not really trainable, but it does give a pretty big boost both to max power and max base cap. incredibly hard-to-reach level of introspection required. no extra time to train it beyond that required to train the base and FPSSJ2
There might possibly be an hidden form beyond/alternative to ssj3, but we have NO IDEA how to reach it.
A SSJ4-like form should exist (it appeared in the RP), but we don't know how it works. I presume it might allow us to use oozaru base while staying normal-size, or maybe it combines normal and oozaru base.
God form: easy with the ritual, if we can use it in a safe place (time chamber). I suppose there's a risk the ritual might create some kind of "hole" in the dimension like Gotenks and Buu did by screaming though. IF the enemy can't sense God Ki that would make training it easier, but we have no way to know if he/she/it can.
SSJ God/Blue: no matter how much one trains, this form is only for the best of the best.
Side-note: Gilded form: In the RP there's a character (Poptart's) that came up with an interesting idea: contain the ki of the ssj form in the body, reducing the waste-leakage of energy. It means you can't use as much Ki-based attacks, but your physical/melee strenght rises up by a lot. It REQUIRES FPSSJ to use, and it might be possible to use with FPSSJ2 as well. optimal use would raise the power of the form by up to 50%.
@PoptartProdigy Anything to add/comment? Did i miss anything/get anything wrong?
EDIT: corrected the max of base/transformed FPSSJ. it's 375 and 750, not 350 and 700. A small mistake
I just reread the vision in question. Noteworthy bits, in light of the Toru thing:
-Kakara can sense magic, but doesn't seem to have sensed anything from The Enemy. At one point I assumed this meant he wasn't using ki or magic, but in retrospect he's probably just stealthed himself somehow.
--Really evil robot is still possible, but seems unlikely from an aesthetic standpoint.
--Psychic seems deeply unlikely, because we should be able to sense his willpower as ki.
-He turned Gohan to stone instead of deleting him.
--If it was because he wanted to scan the corpse, the decision was almost certainly made after the Exiles had taken off.
---If he purposefully let us escape for Reasons, I'll be surprised but not very surprised.
--If he could have deleted Gohan to win fast enough that he could catch the Exiles before takeoff, but chose not to, it was probably because he wanted a fight with Gohan.
--If he couldn't use that instakill wall, on Gohan, at that time, it's either a) because SSB is enough to resist it, possibly just by dodging, or b) because it's an expensive technique somehow, or c) because he didn't have it yet.
-He mentions the Void, sort of like it's his master/faction/something. It's definitely a proper noun.
This is the Toru thing.
-It seems very likely that that Kakara couldn't sense him. At all.
-His powerset includes an Obviously Evil "extreme deletion portal". He didn't launch it, and he didn't make it inside Toru. He just summoned it at a distance.
--Things that kind of looks like: Telekinesis, the flight-sealing rune from the exercise that got us Natural Soldier, or something psychic. Very probably not ki, since ki-telekinetics are the only not-necessarily-launched ki technique I know about.
-Kakara almost certainly wasn't looking at him when the portal appeared, but he did have his arms clasped behind his back beforehand. If it really was magic, he might not to need handseals to do it.
That sounds like spoilers, because getting close to an opponent who has vorpal attacks is generally a really bad idea.
...That said, he is kind of tiny. I think we need to talk to Freeza.
Actually, come to think of it, if we ever decided to go to Heaven through Hell, one way might be to tell Frieza that we're going with the long term goal of building up to defeat the Enemy. If the recent account we got was accurate - and I think Bassoon knows his stuff - we might well be able to convince him to literally escort us through Hell.
I knew Bassoon would have some useful stories to share!
Actually, come to think of it, if we ever decided to go to Heaven through Hell, one way might be to tell Frieza that we're going with the long term goal of building up to defeat the Enemy. If the recent account we got was accurate - and I think Bassoon knows his stuff - we might well be able to convince him to literally escort us through Hell.
He probably cheats because he had C17-C18 "infinite ki generators" (or whatever they were called) inside him.
He might have even not known it honestly. I always thought he was keeping his true power hidden before he made the multiform, but then had them fight with an higher % of his strenght after he made them, so that it only SEEMED like the clones were as strong as his normal self.
I mean, WHY wouldn't he have used it against ssj2 gohan? He only used it against Goku, and he was already stronger than him...and yet Goku defeated the clones relatively easily. Though I suppose it might also be that Cell had a really terrible teamfighting skill
We know he's been absent, but for all we know the Enemy left him crippled, or imprisoned him somehow, or any number of other things.
He could be dead. It's even a likely guess. But all we know is he went bye bye from the galactic scene after a battle with the Enemy, and there's any number of possible ways that leads to him not being in Hell.
We know he's been absent, but for all we know the Enemy left him crippled, or imprisoned him somehow, or any number of other things.
He could be dead. It's even a likely guess. But all we know is he went bye bye from the galactic scene after a battle with the Enemy, and there's any number of possible ways that leads to him not being in Hell.
Whilst true, we have Gohan as an example of what happens to people defeated by the Enemy - he died and went to the Afterlife, as per usual. Whilst it's possible the Enemy did something different this time, in the absence of evidence to support such we can be pretty confident Frieza is dead.
Frieza being dead makes significantly smaller assumptions than Frieza not being dead. Occam's Razor, y'know.
If he is dead, who do you think old enemies refers to?
Pilaf is a laugh and he's almost certainly dead.
The RRA is defunct, twice over now, and even if somehow one held on earth was destroyed and they didnt have bulma's ships.
Tien: See those Above.
King Piccolo: See those below
Piccolo Jr.: See those above
Raditz and Nappa: Those Below
Vegeta: Those Above
Freeza: (In Dispute)
Cooler: Those below
King Cold: Those below
17 & 18: Old Family
Cell: Those Below
Babidi: Those Below
Evil Buu: See Uub, those Above
Good Buu: Was never really an enemy and is travelling with Old Family, seems unlikely two options would both be there.
Beerus: Possible, but that isn't really how I would describe him at all. I'd expect something like "Destruction"
Hit: Never a real enemy, in another universe
Zamasu: Erased from existence
Jiren: Doesn't really qualify as a real enemy, from another universe
Broly: Almost certainly dead by this point, so those above
If he is dead, who do you think old enemies refers to?
Pilaf is a laugh and he's almost certainly dead.
The RRA is defunct, twice over now, and even if somehow one held on earth was destroyed and they didnt have bulma's ships.
Tien: See those Above.
King Piccolo: See those below
Piccolo Jr.: See those above
Raditz and Nappa: Those Below
Vegeta: Those Above
Freeza: (In Dispute)
Cooler: Those below
King Cold: Those below
17 & 18: Old Family
Cell: Those Below
Babidi: Those Below
Evil Buu: See Uub, those Above
Good Buu: Was never really an enemy and is travelling with Old Family, seems unlikely two options would both be there.
Beerus: Possible, but that isn't really how I would describe him at all. I'd expect something like "Destruction"
Hit: Never a real enemy, in another universe
Zamasu: Erased from existence
Jiren: Doesn't really qualify as a real enemy, from another universe
Broly: Almost certainly dead by this point, so those above
A race destroyed by the Saiyans - the Tuffles come to mind as the obvious answer, but Poptart would be well-justified in inventing one. The Saiyans killed so many.
Or perhaps something completely different! I see no reason to assume it's Frieza, though.
A race destroyed by the Saiyans - the Tuffles come to mind as the obvious answer, but Poptart would be well-justified in inventing one. The Saiyans killed so many.
Or perhaps something completely different! I see no reason to assume it's Frieza, though.
I guess it's possible, but the exiles... don't really have much connection, cultural or mental, to the old saiyans; certainly, Kakara wouldn't think of someone they fought as an enemy by default (she would probably consider "opposed the saiyan race" a positive).
I guess it's possible, but the exiles... don't really have much connection, cultural or mental, to the old saiyans; certainly, Kakara wouldn't think of someone they fought as an enemy by default (she would probably consider "opposed the saiyan race" a positive).
And yet, they'd likely consider any surviving Saiyans to be enemies. By default, that makes them our enemies, until and unless we can convince them otherwise. Similarly, we know the last of Tarble's branch counts as "Old Family".
