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Dragon Ball: After the End

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[X][MIND] Speed. Dazarel claims that you're actually already doing this, writ small. Apparently not everybody sees the world slow down when it's time to make a decision. Dazarel says that he can make it faster. Distinct from the above in that you're not passively increasing your skill at or inclination towards something; you're just improving your ability to crank up mental processing over the short term.
[X][MIND] Restructuring. A longer-term project, it is possible for a psychic of your type to restructure their thoughts for greater efficiency towards certain purposes. Of course, this would take a while before results materialized...and you would be taking Dazarel entirely at his word as to what the changes would even be...

[X][KILL] Speak up now and remind them all that one, you're thirteen, and two, you actually have a fairly developed view of violence and killing which means that you're not actually willing to kill Haila in cold blood, since they all seem quite certain that you can win the fight without resorting to lethal force.

[X][TRAP] Wish for the trap to be destroyed. (x1.1 vote weighting from, "Ambitious.")
 
buli-buli said:
I agree with you in principle, we could definitely do with improving our crowd-fighting and team-fighting skills (the +20 wasn't enough to get us victory). And the bonuses from furthering our ability in any style would be welcome as well.

I just wonder if attempting to recreate Tien-style from first principles would be a good-use of Kakara's time. And learning a new style would be starting from Scratch (though it would admittedly be faster).
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Those are fair concerns, I'm just going from the fact that we've seen mounting evidence, both OOC/mechanics-level and in-character, that having a solid to great handle on a Style confers fantastic benefits.
 
Sucal said:
You can also overthink things.

UI works by making it so that you don't have to think, just move
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Yeah, and the reason that works is because thinking takes time. With UI, your OODA loop is cut down immensely. It's like that martial artist quote about "I move, while you are still thinking about moving." Thinking faster isn't the same thing as UI, and won't stack with it either, but it should give similar bonii in some areas in addition to the stuff it does with coordination and out of combat.
Cariyaga said:
The thing about Genki Dama is that it's possible, with Perfect Multiform, for Kakara to provide herself with power. :p
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buli-buli said:
You're trolling, but that should actually work.

The problem is that it would likely do away with the benefits of going Spirit Saiyan as opposed to, say, learning Super Saiyan 2.
Namely that by being a mass of diverse ki, Kakara remains below the Enemy's notice.



And while Genki Dama is an info hazard, its a manageable one to train with given how selective Kakara can be in theory.

Though I'm curious. Do we know enough of Tien Style to really improve on it alone? I'm worried Kakara would just be teaching herself bad habits. Though I guess she has enough inherent martial skill to try and build on what she does know using first principles...
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We actually don't know this works. I strongly suspect that it will, but neither we nor Kakara have tested it.

Perfect multiform isn't the lowest hanging fruit there, though; if this works, we can have multiforms in USSj or GO form to nearly double our power without any further breakthroughs neccesary, and possibly even more if we can combine the two, all while decreasing the range at which we can be sensed. Not nearly as good as spirit saiyan itself, perhaps, but it's more portable, should scale better, and has further avenues for improvement like combining with perfect multiform or increasing our number of clones.
 
buli-buli said:
I agree with you in principle, we could definitely do with improving our crowd-fighting and team-fighting skills (the +20 wasn't enough to get us victory). And the bonuses from furthering our ability in any style would be welcome as well.
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We're right on the edge for levelling up Team Fighting, which will also level up the Hand to Hand and Combat superskills. Right now I'm planning on Taking Team Fighting as the very first thing to do next vote (so that subsequent rolls benefit from those superskills) and to also take Crowd Fighting.
KnightDisciple said:
Those are fair concerns, I'm just going from the fact that we've seen mounting evidence, both OOC/mechanics-level and in-character, that having a solid to great handle on a Style confers fantastic benefits.
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This is very true, but having to recreate Tien's techniques almost from first principles (with some Sight support, admittedly) is going to be a pretty major handicap. Maybe we should be taking a look at making a Kakara style based heavily on Tien style with some Goku style techniques thrown in? We could probably get that up to par almost as quickly if not more so for not having to reinvent Tien's other techniques. The benefit being, of course, that when we go back we'll have tutors for learning Tien style, but we'll never have tutors for Kakara style. (Extreme Sight fuckery aside.)

Or maybe we can learn Tien Style, but deliberately focus on the techniques we already know, and just get that up to journeyman level so we have something to rely on in the meantime? The techniques we're missing are the Four Witches Technique and the Shin Kikoho, which are probably at least somewhat edge-case in their usage.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
We're right on the edge for levelling up Team Fighting, which will also level up the Hand to Hand and Combat superskills. Right now I'm planning on Taking Team Fighting as the very first thing to do next vote (so that subsequent rolls benefit from those superskills) and to also take Crowd Fighting.

This is very true, but having to recreate Tien's techniques almost from first principles (with some Sight support, admittedly) is going to be a pretty major handicap. Maybe we should be taking a look at making a Kakara style based heavily on Tien style with some Goku style techniques thrown in? We could probably get that up to par almost as quickly if not more so for not having to reinvent Tien's other techniques. The benefit being, of course, that when we go back we'll have tutors for learning Tien style, but we'll never have tutors for Kakara style. (Extreme Sight fuckery aside.)

Or maybe we can learn Tien Style, but deliberately focus on the techniques we already know, and just get that up to journeyman level so we have something to rely on in the meantime? The techniques we're missing are the Four Witches Technique and the Shin Kikoho, which are probably at least somewhat edge-case in their usage.
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We already have the basic lessons to keep training in the Exile Tien style (not the style that the Z-fighter used), at least for a while, as well as the instructions for figuring out the rest of the involved techniques in the style, so I think it's entirely possible that we have enough with minimal sight usage to get it to the point where *anyone* looking for further mastery would have to invent further things themselves.
 
Jirachi47 said:
We already have the basic lessons to keep training in the Exile Tien style (not the style that the Z-fighter used), at least for a while, as well as the instructions for figuring out the rest of the involved techniques in the style, so I think it's entirely possible that we have enough with minimal sight usage to get it to the point where *anyone* looking for further mastery would have to invent further things themselves.
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I don't recall us having instructions for the other stuff. If that's true, it goes from "nightmarish" to "a pain", but even so, learning it on our own in space is going to take much longer than it would on Garenhuld with dedicated teachers. If there's an alternative that wouldn't benefit as much from waiting for teachers, I'd prefer to go for that instead.

Still, even if the siren song of building our own style calls to me, I've pretty much sold myself on getting Tien style to the point where we're getting something out of it, and especially if we can do so without learning new techniques for it.

As a side note, I am especially leery of learning the Four Witches Technique and the Shin Kikoho on our own, above and beyond any other technique except the Fusion Dance and maybe the Kaio-Ken. Especially the Four Witches Technique, which involves altering our physiology temporarily, though a technique that involves burning large quantities of life force to fuel it as a final trump card is a bit alarming too.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
As a side note, I am especially leery of learning the Four Witches Technique and the Shin Kikoho on our own, above and beyond any other technique except the Fusion Dance and maybe the Kaio-Ken. Especially the Four Witches Technique, which involves altering our physiology temporarily, though a technique that involves burning large quantities of life force to fuel it as a final trump card is a bit alarming too.
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I'd say now is the best time - there are healers on hand, and our shade form is quite malleable. It would also, as previously mentioned, combo really well with that pressure point attack Carrak demonstrated. If we can learn that application of the Sight, it's worth looking into.

[X][ASK] Kakara, how difficult is it to grow extra arms in Shade form?
 
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Incidentally...
Vote Talley said:
[x][MIND] Restructuring. A longer-term project, it is possible for a psychic of your type to restructure their thoughts for greater efficiency towards certain purposes. Of course, this would take a while before results materialized...and you would be taking Dazarel entirely at his word as to what the changes would even be...
Jirachi47, buli-buli, Geordiefan, Pittauro, Cariyaga, HoratioVonBecker, Frvborg, Deathbybunnies
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Darkcore41 said:
They want instant gratification, even when it's useless right now. The best option is mind restructure because it does all that passively but takes time. I bet by the time she needs shielding the same time could have been used to get it passively.
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Are you going to vote for it, or were you actually just trolling? I'm sure @Wiadi and perhaps @KnightDisciple would be interested to learn if it was the latter.
 
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buli-buli said:
Now looking over our character sheet, Kakara's first deficiency appears under Power Levels: Masqued Power Level: 300 Million (Increasable through Masque acclimation).
That said, while improving that would be nice and would be great for being able to act in space without announcing Saiyan to everyone that's more of a future post-Shade issue.
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one note: i'm pretty sure max power for a 100% acclimated masque would be our base form cap. That's 375 millions. We're already at 300.

Now, it's possible that once we reach that cap we can maybe train our human form separately, but it might not be worth it. Simply by achieving ssj2 (whenever we manage to) we raise our base cap, which directly raises our masque power level as well.
buli-buli said:
What next sticks out to me is, Golden Oozaru, Grade One.Without the worry of blowing apart our wards at home, it should be conceivably possible to improve this. Preferable to Grade 4 (full-power) or at least Grade 2 (ascended).
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Grade one because we only have the first ssj form. Once we unlock ssj2 we should automatically get golden oozaru grade 2, basically a ssj2 oozaru.
buli-buli said:
Under Skills: Ki Talents.
We are already working to recreate Perfect Multiform (which I am assuming will be equivalent to obtaining Multiform [Elite]).
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you'd be assuming right. perfect multiform would be our elite ki talent.
buli-buli said:
Given the potential All is One Talent, I imagine working on improving out skill at Genki Dama will help here. Though I wouldn't want to miss out on Machine Sense either...Either way, I want both of those Talents.
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They're both elite ki sense talents. We can only choose one. Maybe we could take the other if we ever go above Elite to Legendary.

buli-buli said:
You're trolling, but that should actually work.

The problem is that it would likely do away with the benefits of going Spirit Saiyan as opposed to, say, learning Super Saiyan 2.
Namely that by being a mass of diverse ki, Kakara remains below the Enemy's notice.
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mhh...if the ki came from a golden oozaru, from a human masque Kakara, and from a Full Saiyan masque Kakara, the ki signature might be different enough to be considered "diverse ki" maybe
 
Pittauro said:
one note: i'm pretty sure max power for a 100% acclimated masque would be our base form cap. That's 375 millions. We're already at 300.

Now, it's possible that once we reach that cap we can maybe train our human form separately, but it might not be worth it. Simply by achieving ssj2 (whenever we manage to) we raise our base cap, which directly raises our masque power level as well.
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All true, but it would be nice to finish off the acclimation just so we aren't outright crippling ourself while disguising ourself.
Pittauro said:
Grade one because we only have the first ssj form. Once we unlock ssj2 we should automatically get golden oozaru grade 2, basically a ssj2 oozaru.
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Oh really? I honestly thought it was Grades like what the dragon ball wiki calls grades. Oh well.

Either way for both of these issues Super Saiyan 2 is a no go unless we can find a really high-quality sealed space to train in. Like a Hyperbolic Time Chamber.
Pittauro said:
you'd be assuming right. perfect multiform would be our elite ki talent.
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Cool.
Pittauro said:
They're both elite ki sense talents. We can only choose one. Maybe we could take the other if we ever go above Elite to Legendary.
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Hmm. It would ultimately depend on the details, but I guess I would choose machine sense if given the option then. It feel less impressive than All is One, making the latter better for a Legendary perk.
Pittauro said:
mhh...if the ki came from a golden oozaru, from a human masque Kakara, and from a Full Saiyan masque Kakara, the ki signature might be different enough to be considered "diverse ki" maybe
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I don't know.
 
buli-buli said:
Either way for both of these issues Super Saiyan 2 is a no go unless we can find a really high-quality sealed space to train in. Like a Hyperbolic Time Chamber.
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we DO have that katchin shield. We could try to meditate inside it.

There is a risk that Kakara might lose control and try to teleport outside it once she transforms, but that's basically the only true risk. It's not like we need a big space to train. Just a safe place to think and try to reach deeper. The problem is that we STILL only have a few minutes per day of time outside Bassoon, and we're already spending most of it with Perika to train her and socialize her.
buli-buli said:
All true, but it would be nice to finish off the acclimation just so we aren't outright crippling ourself while disguising ourself.
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It's just that i don't think it would be worth the time it would take. Also we have just a few minutes per day that we can manifest outside Bassoon right now, so we really CAN'T train it right now, even if we'd like to. Maybe if we can raise the bond level we can reconsider it.

buli-buli said:
Hmm. It would ultimately depend on the details, but I guess I would choose machine sense if given the option then. It feel less impressive than All is One, making the latter better for a Legendary perk.
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do remember that

1)There's no guarantee we'll actually reach legendary. It can't be reached simply through training, it would take something special.
2)There is a good chance we might actually try/be offered something even BETTER for a legendary talent.
3)choosing the "less impressive" one seems like a bad decision strategy. Especially if the talent remains the same. I don't think it would simply be upgraded because we're taking it later. I'm not even sure if there are legendary-only talents or if they're the same

There are good arguments in favour of machine sense though, like the fact it would allow us to sense stealth spaceship, maybe stealthed enemy by sensing the energy of their stealth suits, and of course it would allow us to sense the ki/energy of androids and unusually advanced machines/weapons.

Who knows, maybe we'll be able to sense an enemy simply by the smartphone in their pocket :p

buli-buli said:
I don't know.
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that's what experimenting is for! we can try inside a Katchin shell!
 
x][MIND] Restructuring. A longer-term project, it is possible for a psychic of your type to restructure their thoughts for greater efficiency towards certain purposes. Of course, this would take a while before results materialized...and you would be taking Dazarel entirely at his word as to what the changes would even be
 
Pittauro said:
Snip
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Dang. Completely misremembered how long the katchin dome lasts. That would be viable.

Okay, next voting round I say we go for instructing Bassoon, Perika, and Guru (In that order of priority) in our knowledge and understanding of ki (sensing, control, pholosophy, the whole kit and caboodle).

Doing so, should improve the whole groups abilities and our relationships with them.
 
Darkcore41 said:
x][MIND] Restructuring. A longer-term project, it is possible for a psychic of your type to restructure their thoughts for greater efficiency towards certain purposes. Of course, this would take a while before results materialized...and you would be taking Dazarel entirely at his word as to what the changes would even be
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...You're missing a bracket, your vote won't be counted.
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
Are you going to vote for it, or were you actually just trolling? I'm sure @Wiadi and perhaps @KnightDisciple would be interested to learn if it was the latter.
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Not especially, no. Kindly refrain from tagging me in your vote campaigns in the future, I find them tiresome enough to read through as it is.
 
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So first off, while I'm unlikely to have the freedom to write for a while yet, the voting has died down, so the vote is closed. Then, there's a discussion I wanted to have.

So, while trying to find a way to occupy myself with my home's computers out of action, I would up looking over that whole mess we had, back at the Unsealing. I made some touch-ups.

I've covered before what a mistake it was to forget about explaining why we proceeded to a fight with Yammar without the promised vote. Caused a lot of grief. It was probably my largest mistake. But looking back, I can admit that is was not my only big mistake in that update. So I've gone back, and I've revised the dialogue between Kakara and future!Kakara. Because that, too, was a gigantic mistake of which I should have thought better.

The original scene was problematic in how future!Kakara approached the issue of Dandeer. Originally, she went hard on calling Dandeer stupid. Stupid this, imbecile that, countless insults thrown on Dandeer's capabilities. This was an example of unreliable narrator; future!Kakara does not like Dandeer, and hesitates to think well of her. So she tried to grind in the idea that Dandeer is an idiot, which is...really only true by relation to Kakara herself, who is a borderline genius. Namely, it's not true. Dandeer's no great thinker, but she has her moments. Neither Kakara is terribly well equipped to realize this, and in an ideal world, I could have showcased that, but...coming off of the thread's largest loss to date, I should not have then had a character seemingly grind your faces into the idea that you'd lost to an incompetent. Wasn't a good idea. Was not good QMing. The new version of the conversation, while in my opinion less true to future!Kakara's character, is probably a better overall way of handling it.

So, while I get that it's pretty late, I'd like to say that I'm sorry, to those who were around at the time. I should have handled that one better than I did. If you care to, I've revised the scene in question. Hopefully the new version works better, but frankly I won't blame you if you don't care to see it again.


Meanwhile, going forward, I actually wanted to discuss some of my long-term plans for this quest! I'm very excited about some of the things we have in store; the arcs coming up are the most extensively planned stories we've had in this quest. I feel eager to get to them, and I think it's going to be a grand adventure for us all. But before we get there, I have one question...

...how married are you to Kakara being the only viewpoint character we will ever play?
 
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PoptartProdigy said:
Dandeer stuff.
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I completely understand why you see that as a mistake. And I can only imagine what it would have been like as a quest player to read that speech at the time. But as someone who binged, it really comes across as a loss in personality. I happened to like how terrible Future!Kakara was at comforting her past self after a devastating defeat.
"Don't worry. The person who's prepratory plans beat out yours is still an idiot!"​
On the other hand, having you come forward about the Future!Kakara's unreliable analysis is good for the voters. I was honestly worried about how the invasion was going to go down with Dandeer leading everything.

PoptartProdigy said:
Meanwhile, going forward, I actually wanted to discuss some of my long-term plans for this quest! I'm very excited about some of the things we have in store; the arcs coming up are the most extensively planned stories we've had in this quest. I feel eager to get to them, and I think it's going to be a grand adventure for us all. But before we get there, I have one question...

...how married are you to Kakara being the only viewpoint character we will ever play?
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I am looking forward to it.

And... hmmm. I guess it would depend on the viewpoint character. And how long we would play them. But, I trust you as a QM. You would/will make it interesting. Especially if its something you want to try.
 
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