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A memevote like wishing for a cupcake will win.
Nah, we'll be torn between a selfish wish like "I want to be at least exceptionally skilled at everything I do or will do" and a more responsible wish to help our people.

...Maybe something like granting the entire Saiyan race the ability to be, at-will, undetectable to Ki Sensing, even at full power? Garenhuld could kick into high gear then, everyone reaching for the higher transformations without fear of the Enemy.
 
"I wish all Saiyans, everywhere, were completely immune to mind control."

-What we'd want: All Saiyans under Dandeer's spell immediately break free, our enemy's strongest power is completely neutered.

-What we'd get: All Saiyans, everywhere, get his with a duplicate of Buu's Chocolate Beam, since things without minds can't be mind controlled.
 
"I wish all Saiyans, everywhere, were completely immune to mind control."

-What we'd want: All Saiyans under Dandeer's spell immediately break free, our enemy's strongest power is completely neutered.

-What we'd get: All Saiyans, everywhere, get his with a duplicate of Buu's Chocolate Beam, since things without minds can't be mind controlled.

Are you sure that would work? Candy Veggeto seemed to still have a mind after being hit with it.
 
See, this is the kind of thing we could use Sight to predict, hopefully:

Is this dragon going to interpret our wishes maliciously?
 
Is this dragon going to interpret our wishes maliciously?

And that could fail because the dragon wasn't being malicious, just hungry.

But yes, I would support using our Sight to do this.

I would also support using Pastsight to inform younger versions of us of any alterations needing to be made to our wish. Enough iterations, and we should end up with us walking up to the dragon and having a vision hit with a very good wish hand-delivered to us, thanks to numerous iterations of Kakara trying different tings.
 
And that could fail because the dragon wasn't being malicious, just hungry.
Everything can fail. At some point the only thing to do is to not dwell on it.

I would also support using Pastsight to inform younger versions of us of any alterations needing to be made to our wish. Enough iterations, and we should end up with us walking up to the dragon and having a vision hit with a very good wish hand-delivered to us, thanks to numerous iterations of Kakara trying different tings.
I don't think we're sophisticated enough with the Sight to do that reliably. The Kakara we know as Future Kakara seems to have pulled it off, but the fact that we're not constantly getting advice from future versions of ourself suggests that there are strong limitations on the use of Pastsight to send information and instructions into our own past.
 
I don't think we're sophisticated enough with the Sight to do that reliably. The Kakara we know as Future Kakara seems to have pulled it off, but the fact that we're not constantly getting advice from future versions of ourself suggests that there are strong limitations on the use of Pastsight to send information and instructions into our own past.

It could also be the fact that the use of past sight to send a message like that eliminates the timeline that sent the message, effectively killing everyone in it.

So Future!Kakara became a murderess, a genocidess, and many other terms by sending the message. So if we did it iteratively, we'd be eliminating countless billions of lives.

Or maybe one of those completely-unfair 'balance' things the overdiety 'Poptart' enforces.
 
It could also be the fact that the use of past sight to send a message like that eliminates the timeline that sent the message, effectively killing everyone in it.

So Future!Kakara became a murderess, a genocidess, and many other terms by sending the message. So if we did it iteratively, we'd be eliminating countless billions of lives.
I'm not sure I buy that on a philosophical level, because it turns all utility calculations ("is this on net good or bad") into weird equations with 'infinity' as the inputs on both sides. Anything I do can be interpreted as creating the timeline in which that thing happened, and destroying the timeline in which it didn't. If altering a timeline and replacing it with one in which different events happened is universal genocide, everything is universal genocide.

The only ways to parse this are to not view a timeline alteration as being universal genocide in the first place, or to view it as such but then say that bringing a new timeline into being is an inherently good act just as undoing the old timeline is an evil act.
 
I'm not sure I buy that on a philosophical level, because it turns all utility calculations ("is this on net good or bad") into weird equations with 'infinity' as the inputs on both sides. Anything I do can be interpreted as creating the timeline in which that thing happened, and destroying the timeline in which it didn't. If altering a timeline and replacing it with one in which different events happened is universal genocide, everything is universal genocide.

Not really. Anything you do which changes the past would be universal genocide. But that doesn't come up as often as you might think. If there is no interference from the future, you are not destroying that future timeline, instead continuing on the one you were already on.

It does raise the question of free will, but that's hardly the topic of conversation.
 
I'm not sure I buy that on a philosophical level, because it turns all utility calculations ("is this on net good or bad") into weird equations with 'infinity' as the inputs on both sides. Anything I do can be interpreted as creating the timeline in which that thing happened, and destroying the timeline in which it didn't. If altering a timeline and replacing it with one in which different events happened is universal genocide, everything is universal genocide.

The only ways to parse this are to not view a timeline alteration as being universal genocide in the first place, or to view it as such but then say that bringing a new timeline into being is an inherently good act just as undoing the old timeline is an evil act.

Putting aside the fact that there are different sizes of infinities, the latter makes perfect sense to me. It seems counterintuitive because it leads to odd conclusions, like not having a kid has the same moral weight as killing that exact same kid.
 
Putting aside the fact that there are different sizes of infinities, the latter makes perfect sense to me. It seems counterintuitive because it leads to odd conclusions, like not having a kid has the same moral weight as killing that exact same kid.
It "makes sense" in that it's internally consistent, but it isn't a good way to expect human beings to make moral decisions, precisely because it leads to counterintuitive (and sometimes repugnant) conclusions. For example, if preventing future lives from happening while creating other, DIFFERENT future lives is wrong on net, then we loop back to the conclusion that changing the future is wrong regardless of whether you've altered the past- because altering the present erases future potential lives just as surely as altering the past would.

I mean, it's easy to provide a moral argument for why destroying a timeline without replacing it is morally wrong, but changing a timeline shouldn't be morally wrong unless the changes are in some way immoral in and of themselves (i.e. changing history by dropping a nuclear bomb on a city is wrong, but that's because blowing up a city is wrong in itself, not because you changed history by doing it).

Not really. Anything you do which changes the past would be universal genocide. But that doesn't come up as often as you might think. If there is no interference from the future, you are not destroying that future timeline, instead continuing on the one you were already on.
The thing is, then, what privileges the timeline you were "on" from all the other timelines you were "on" that were identical up to the moment at which you made or didn't make that decision?

There's a timeline where, while Dandelor was busily unsealing Jaffur, Kakara took the time to go Spirit Saiyan. There's another timeline where she didn't- namely, the timeline we're playing in.

It's probable that these two timelines are decidedly different in very important ways. By making the choice to go, or not go, Spirit Saiyan, Kakara chose that one and only one of those timelines would become real to the occupants of her universe, while the other would not. Did this entail 'destroying' a future timeline?

If it did entail such destruction, then either Kakara is not a monster (because destroying one possible timeline and bringing into being another is a morally neutral act)...

Or Kakara is a monster regardless of what decision she made, because the destruction of a whole universe worth of potential future beings far outweighs any good or bad results directly coming about from the decision itself.

...

I would argue that because of this kind of issue, the assertion "causing a future timeline to not happen is mass murder" leads to absurd conclusions and so is not true. Either that, or "causing a different future timeline to happen is the opposite of mass murder, the ultimate good of bringing a zillion new lives into being," and so the 'infinity' terms cancel out in the moral calculation. Whatever you do, you cause (-1 timeline) but you also cause (+1 timeline) as long as you don't somehow blow up the cosmos with a grandfather paradox or something.

This is a common thing in physics- if there are infinitely large terms popping up in your calculations, and your calculations are to be applicable to realistic or vaguely normal scenarios, then the infinitely large terms HAVE to cancel each other out. And, indeed, experience is that when one's analysis is rigorous, they do.
 
It "makes sense" in that it's internally consistent, but it isn't a good way to expect human beings to make moral decisions, precisely because it leads to counterintuitive (and sometimes repugnant) conclusions. For example, if preventing future lives from happening while creating other, DIFFERENT future lives is wrong on net, then we loop back to the conclusion that changing the future is wrong regardless of whether you've altered the past- because altering the present erases future potential lives just as surely as altering the past would.
If you take the different lives to have unknown-but-probably-different values, then it's still essentially a net-neutral proposition - for replacing a life there's an equal chance the change is positive as there is the change is negative, so from a moral standpoint the decision to make the change is neutral. Refusing to play is still making a decision.
 
If you take the different lives to have unknown-but-probably-different values, then it's still essentially a net-neutral proposition - for replacing a life there's an equal chance the change is positive as there is the change is negative, so from a moral standpoint the decision to make the change is neutral. Refusing to play is still making a decision.
Well, that's what I was getting at with my 'cancel out' argument.

[i}Changing[/i] a timeline (that is, the act of eliminating a potential future timeline and creating another one) is a morally neutral act that on net cancels itself out from a moral perspective, leaving only the specific moral questions related to the act itself (changing the past by nuking a city is clearly immoral, changing the past by saving a drowning person is clearly moral as long as it doesn't predictably lead to some other disaster like city-nuking).
 
Well, that's what I was getting at with my 'cancel out' argument.

[i}Changing[/i] a timeline (that is, the act of eliminating a potential future timeline and creating another one) is a morally neutral act that on net cancels itself out from a moral perspective, leaving only the specific moral questions related to the act itself (changing the past by nuking a city is clearly immoral, changing the past by saving a drowning person is clearly moral as long as it doesn't predictably lead to some other disaster like city-nuking).
Sure, and that makes perfect sense to me. It's the same logic that shows Star Trek's Prime Directive to be cowardly nonsense, there only to prevent the Federation from having to feel responsible. The only real practical effect here is that if we ever did have enough information to judge whether a timeline or a life was "worth" more than another, they no longer cancel out and there is a definitely correct choice.

It doesn't really matter I suppose, it's just something I've thought about before.
 
Okay, wait, back on the original subject of our vision from Future Kakara...my understanding was that that wasn't sent using Pastsight, it was just that she somehow arranged events such that we'd get a vision of the precise moment she occupied during the fight, then spoke basically into thin air and used Pastsight to predict our questions. After all, she specifically told us that sending people visions isn't possible. So instead she just manipulated whatever system the Sight uses to decide what to show us when.
 
Sure, and that makes perfect sense to me. It's the same logic that shows Star Trek's Prime Directive to be cowardly nonsense, there only to prevent the Federation from having to feel responsible. The only real practical effect here is that if we ever did have enough information to judge whether a timeline or a life was "worth" more than another, they no longer cancel out and there is a definitely correct choice.

It doesn't really matter I suppose, it's just something I've thought about before.
Star trek's prime directive is there to prevent cultural contamination, which is an objective of many cultural anthropologists today.
 
Star trek's prime directive is there to prevent cultural contamination, which is an objective of many cultural anthropologists today.
Yeah, except when it extends to "oh no, we can't save this civilisation from the plague, it's supposed to die like that!" Or that one movie where they were going to move the natives of a tiny valley out to a carefully-reconstructed replica of said valley on another planet, with them never having the slightest clue it would happen, in order to save literally billions of lives harvesting some technobabble medicine - and then stopping this was somehow the right thing to do.
 
Yeah, except when it extends to "oh no, we can't save this civilisation from the plague, it's supposed to die like that!" Or that one movie where they were going to move the natives of a tiny valley out to a carefully-reconstructed replica of said valley on another planet, with them never having the slightest clue it would happen, in order to save literally billions of lives harvesting some technobabble medicine - and then stopping this was somehow the right thing to do.
I mean, displacing small populations of natives for the greater good of a larger, more powerful civilization to exploit a rare and precious natural resource is objectively morally correct, amiright?
 
I mean, displacing small populations of natives for the greater good of a larger, more powerful civilization to exploit a rare and precious natural resource is objectively morally correct, amiright?
I'm pretty sure you're equating this to historical examples, which falls apart on several levels:
  • The displacing is so completely comfortable that the natives would be literally unaware that it even occurred.
  • The natural resource in question is explicitly a medical substance, that would be distributed to literally billions of people to save their lives, for no gain to those harvesting it. This, weighed against the exact location of an indigenous people numbering in the thousands (maybe tens of thousands?)
  • The natives can't make use of it, are unaware that it's there, and will not be able to make use of it for at least several thousand years, due to the same Prime Directive forbidding any uplift of indigenous populations (which is again pretty awful in my opinion, but whatever.)
    • Crucially, this time period is more than long enough for advances in technology to allow for creating something of equal value to them much more easily. Similarly, in the event that this substance is so valuable that thousands of years of tech didn't manage that, they can literally just give them the same quantity of the substance then. If they're willing to forgo the substance entirely for ethical reasons, why not just commit to repaying it when they can actually use it?
I can appreciate that OOC the writers were trying for parallels to atrocities like the Trail of Tears etc., but IC the setting as it stands makes for a very different scenario.
 
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I'm pretty sure you're equating this to historical examples, which falls apart on several levels:
  • The displacing is so completely comfortable that the natives would be literally unaware that it even occurred.
  • The natural resource in question is explicitly a medical substance, that would be distributed to literally billions of people to save their lives, for no gain to those harvesting it. This, weighed against the exact location of an indigenous people numbering in the thousands (maybe tens of thousands?)
  • The natives can't make use of it, are unaware that it's there, and will not be able to make use of it for at least several thousand years, due to the same Prime Directive forbidding any uplift of indigenous populations (which is again pretty awful in my opinion, but whatever.)
    • Crucially, this time period is more than long enough for advances in technology to allow for creating something of equal value to them much more easily. Similarly, in the event that this substance is so valuable that thousands of years of tech didn't manage that, they can literally just give them the same quantity of the substance then. If they're willing to forgo the substance entirely for ethical reasons, why not just commit to repaying it when they can actually use it?
I can appreciate that OOC the writers were trying for parallels to atrocities like the Trail of Tears etc., but IC the setting as it stands makes for a very different scenario.
1.) The natives were fully aware of the effects, that was why they chose to live there.
2.) Starfleet had allied themselves with ruthless weapons dealers who used blatant stellar-level weapons of mass destruction (subspace weapons).
3.) The energy at Baku mostly just de-aged people? I don't recall them providing quick-healing (something the Federation's technology already has), and one has to question if siphoning up all the energy would actually keep it intact long-term, or if it wouldn't just get used up by 2-3 generations.
4.) The stance you're advocating is essentially "it's okay to use our overwhelming power against people with no chance to fight back if we can just keep them comfortable and if we're serving the Greater Good". Which is...kind of gross?

Also this all is starting to feel really off-topic....
 
See, this is the kind of thing we could use Sight to predict, hopefully:

Is this dragon going to interpret our wishes maliciously?
We've never seen a wish maliciously interpreted in canon, or even one that went wrong.


Moving aside from the star treck examples, I think there is an important paradigm to keep in mind: this is fiction. While I can't speak for others here, me personally? If we had a button to vote "and then Kakara fixed everything forever for everyone," I wouldn't click it. It's why I'll also vote for character interactions and decisions I think are interesting, even at the cost of some utility; while I ascribe significant nonzero value to Kakara acting to benefit others, it's because it's the type of character I want to read about here.

With that taken into account, I think there's honestly no need for any direct morality discussion. Certainly, there are moral choices i would prefer for Kakara, and have a mental model of her as an intensely moral person, but discussions on tangents like these are both almost indubitably fruitless and they miss the point. If you really want to debate it, I would advise doing so directly in terms of what you'd like to see Kakara do, rather than using the divisive proxy of morality debates as the medium.
 
1.) The natives were fully aware of the effects, that was why they chose to live there.
2.) Starfleet had allied themselves with ruthless weapons dealers who used blatant stellar-level weapons of mass destruction (subspace weapons).
3.) The energy at Baku mostly just de-aged people? I don't recall them providing quick-healing (something the Federation's technology already has), and one has to question if siphoning up all the energy would actually keep it intact long-term, or if it wouldn't just get used up by 2-3 generations.
4.) The stance you're advocating is essentially "it's okay to use our overwhelming power against people with no chance to fight back if we can just keep them comfortable and if we're serving the Greater Good". Which is...kind of gross?

Also this all is starting to feel really off-topic....
Alright, well I'll spoiler my last response then.
  1. I'll admit I'd forgotten this.
  2. Yeah, that was pretty bad. Not really relevant to the morality of the decision we're discussing, though?
  3. I don't recall any indication that the natives were using the energy sustainably and Starfleet weren't going to. That would obviously shift the entire decision point to "many people now, or even more people spread out".
  4. Yes? This is basically the Trolley Problem multiplied on a cosmic scale, except with an even better ration on winners/losers, and the losers don't even die. The people strapped to the rails are all unable to fight back, and I'd absolutely flip that switch to save the 5 guys and kill the one other guy. Except the other guy doesn't actually die, in this case. Sure it sucks to be the one guy, but it would suck to be one of the 5 guys if you don't intervene, and not intervening is a choice - which brings us back to the start of this diversion.
 
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