Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Why is paralyzing moral decision making a poor artistic choice?
Dragon Ball: After the End
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
If it's paralyzing in the sense that "everything you do is multiversal genocide, do you feel like a hero now, Kakara Goku?", then yes.
Thankfully, @PoptartProdigy is not, in fact, that sort of writer/QM, so that shouldn't be an issue.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
One of these days I'm going to make a game called "Autocorrect or drunkposting". It will be wonderful.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I don't really see that as an issue, myself. I suspect it's in how I interface with quests in general. I don't tend to view them through the lens of a story, but rather through the lens of "This is what happened to [character]".
From that perspective, it sucks, but it's still very interesting. I can see why people wouldn't like that or view it that way, though.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Because there's very little good art that you can hang off of nihilism, catatonia, or the sort of sublime narcissism that doesn't care how much it destroys as long as it gets what it wants. And those are about the only options left after normal moral decision-making processes go out the window due to people willfully introducing infinities where they don't belong.
EDIT:
I mean, it's not impossible to get a good story out of that, it's just that you've amputated most of the good places for the story to go.
Last edited:
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Okay, I don't ordinarily do this, but this discussion is arguing pure hypotheticals, and weighty ones with the potential to spoil tempers, so to give some grounding to the subject:
When Kakara acts on a vision, and successfully changes it, she does not obliterate the universe she, "saw." The best way to describe it is-
-thank you, Bulma.
The future-as-it-was goes on happening, but Kakara's prime self, for want of a better term, continues along the track she made. Some other Kakara, in some other timeline/universe, assumes the original course of history. Far from destroying universes or timelines; by acting on visions in a way which changes the course of history -- which is harder than you'd expect -- Kakara effectively creates new universes. Now, those universes may persist or come to sticky ends on their own initiative, but Kakara Prime is, by any reasonable metric, quite innocent of that.
In fact, she's almost entirely innocent of creating new universes at all, because a timeline splits off every time anybody makes a decision of any sort at all. Or, in other words:
The only thing that makes the act of timeline creation as a result of sight any of Kakara's responsibility at all is the fact that she's acting with intent aforethought. Sort of the difference between deliberately squishing a spider and just happening to step on it.
Now the life cycle of timelines is something that The Fourth Monado and I have extensively fleshed out between ourselves, as part of our joint canon, and there's a lot to say about what happens after a timeline comes into being, but in terms of the discussion immediately to hand: acting to change the future does not obliterate an infinite panoply of universes. In fact, quite the opposite, and it occurs for every single decision a person makes, knowingly or not. No infinite nihilism paradigm in this cosmology.
When Kakara acts on a vision, and successfully changes it, she does not obliterate the universe she, "saw." The best way to describe it is-
-thank you, Bulma.
The future-as-it-was goes on happening, but Kakara's prime self, for want of a better term, continues along the track she made. Some other Kakara, in some other timeline/universe, assumes the original course of history. Far from destroying universes or timelines; by acting on visions in a way which changes the course of history -- which is harder than you'd expect -- Kakara effectively creates new universes. Now, those universes may persist or come to sticky ends on their own initiative, but Kakara Prime is, by any reasonable metric, quite innocent of that.
In fact, she's almost entirely innocent of creating new universes at all, because a timeline splits off every time anybody makes a decision of any sort at all. Or, in other words:
The only thing that makes the act of timeline creation as a result of sight any of Kakara's responsibility at all is the fact that she's acting with intent aforethought. Sort of the difference between deliberately squishing a spider and just happening to step on it.
Now the life cycle of timelines is something that The Fourth Monado and I have extensively fleshed out between ourselves, as part of our joint canon, and there's a lot to say about what happens after a timeline comes into being, but in terms of the discussion immediately to hand: acting to change the future does not obliterate an infinite panoply of universes. In fact, quite the opposite, and it occurs for every single decision a person makes, knowingly or not. No infinite nihilism paradigm in this cosmology.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
A good story doesn't need to be happy -- neither does the protagonist have to care, or be able to conceptualize something like that, or know it for most of the story. There's plenty of room also for pursuit of an end to that paradigm.
Ah, sorry, the discussion kinda got off track! Wasn't really talking about DB:AtE toward the end there, just storytelling in general. Think the discussion can be done, now, though?
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
So, about the whole thing about you deciding not to make Super's less than a hundred inhabited planets in Universe 7 thing canon @PoptartProdigy . Here's a thought.
The Namekians, upon discovering that Frieza had been blowing up and/or depopulating planets long before he ever set foot on Namek Prime, used their 6 wishes a year to set about undoing that. Partly because each blown up/genocided planet is a horrific atrocity, and partly because fuck Frieza. Unfortunately this was a major factor in the chaos that ensued after The Enemy offed Earth, as the inhabitants of the worlds genocided by Frieza took issue with the Arcosians, began fighting amongst each other without any real authority to stop them since the Kais had barricaded themselves in the afterlife and Frieza and anyone of similar strength were either dead or hiding from The Enemy, or got driven from their worlds by the new inhabitants and turned into nomads of varying stripes.
Eventually they stopped when they realized the sheer chaos unfolding as a result of the wished back worlds and peoples, but it took a while because nobody had any idea where New Namek was except Goku, and he wasn't exactly blabbing it to everyone he met. This neatly ties Super canon to the current story, sorta, and leaves the wishes available for our use.
The Namekians, upon discovering that Frieza had been blowing up and/or depopulating planets long before he ever set foot on Namek Prime, used their 6 wishes a year to set about undoing that. Partly because each blown up/genocided planet is a horrific atrocity, and partly because fuck Frieza. Unfortunately this was a major factor in the chaos that ensued after The Enemy offed Earth, as the inhabitants of the worlds genocided by Frieza took issue with the Arcosians, began fighting amongst each other without any real authority to stop them since the Kais had barricaded themselves in the afterlife and Frieza and anyone of similar strength were either dead or hiding from The Enemy, or got driven from their worlds by the new inhabitants and turned into nomads of varying stripes.
Eventually they stopped when they realized the sheer chaos unfolding as a result of the wished back worlds and peoples, but it took a while because nobody had any idea where New Namek was except Goku, and he wasn't exactly blabbing it to everyone he met. This neatly ties Super canon to the current story, sorta, and leaves the wishes available for our use.
- Location
- Italy
i think the gods would have made their displeasure known a lot before the Namekians brought back enough planets to matter.
Also if the namekians know about Otherworld i don't think they would believe resurrecting those dead for years or even decades that important.
Really, the 28 planets thing is best left ignored.
Also if the namekians know about Otherworld i don't think they would believe resurrecting those dead for years or even decades that important.
Really, the 28 planets thing is best left ignored.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
What I meant was:
Do deontology. Leave the accountant at the end of the universe to his work.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
That would depend on whether or not the gods were displeased, and whether or not they were inclined to be active in the matter, no?
They may still think being alive is better than being dead, or not want to live in a galaxy emptied of life by Frieza's genocides.
Cadis
Proud Capoeria Angola Quintal Capoerista
- Location
- United States
I mean it's actually the universe which has been emptied.
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
I mean, if they had a method to contact random Namekian #327, you'd think that would be available to Kakara and Yemma would have mentioned it. I'm still not sure why having King Kai 'bounce the signal' wouldn't work. Yemma said that our telepathy wasn't good enough to talk to them, not that there was some kind of issue with the telepathy itself.
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Welp, I'm back. Left During the Unsealing Arc.
Huh.
So we're basically Nail now.
Bitchin. Now let's get us some minesweeper and a pool table!
While it WAS annoying in the short term, damn we left like a badass. Seriously, that stuff is the shit that makes legends.
...Also, you think we can maybe teach Bassoon some techniques? Such as Instant Transmission? If he doesn't already know it or the shields don't prevent it, it could make his Blockade runs much easier.
Huh.
So we're basically Nail now.
Bitchin. Now let's get us some minesweeper and a pool table!
While it WAS annoying in the short term, damn we left like a badass. Seriously, that stuff is the shit that makes legends.
...Also, you think we can maybe teach Bassoon some techniques? Such as Instant Transmission? If he doesn't already know it or the shields don't prevent it, it could make his Blockade runs much easier.
- Location
- Italy
he also said the barrier blocks it.
better, we're Nail 2.0, with more ki and added magic. Free with the package comes a personality.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Wait. Bassoon has apps?
- Location
- Italy
of course, he has minesweeper 2.0
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Porunga can only resurrect three people per summoning.
Welcome back.
The one person per wish restriction was removed, remember?
- Location
- Italy
in the buu saga they changed that. It was Porunga who resurrected all those killed by Bu
edit:
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Oh, right.
That being said, that was not the reason I ruled that bit non-canon.
That being said, that was not the reason I ruled that bit non-canon.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Stipulating for the sake of argument that this was true, would it prevent Porunga from creating entirely new worlds with new inhabitants out of nothing? Without actually resurrecting any dead beings?
- Location
- Italy
That would give Porunga the powers of the Kaioshins though. I find it unlikely