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Dragon Ball: After the End

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I think it's clear that while the Enemy may not be overtly stronger than the gods*, he appears to have found some kind of, for lack of a better term, 'hack' that means the gods can't just casually blot him out of existence and would have to personally endanger themselves to deal with. The gods, being immortals, figure that putting up a fence while trying to find some other less distasteful way of solving the problem makes more sense.
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*By which I mean all level of the divine hierarchy that rules the Dragonball multiverse, up to and including Zen-O...
 
Simon_Jester said:
I think it's clear that while the Enemy may not be overtly stronger than the gods*, he appears to have found some kind of, for lack of a better term, 'hack' that means the gods can't just casually blot him out of existence and would have to personally endanger themselves to deal with. The gods, being immortals, figure that putting up a fence while trying to find some other less distasteful way of solving the problem makes more sense.
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*By which I mean all level of the divine hierarchy that rules the Dragonball multiverse, up to and including Zen-O...
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Alternatively, he's got backing from one or more of the higher powers, who's interfering with the ability/willingness of the others (if any, they could all be in on it I suppose) to act against him. Which I suppose might count as a "hack" in some sense but carries significantly different implications.
 
If they were all in on it, they wouldn't 'need' the Enemy, they'd just do whatever they pleased instead of doing it through a proxy. I mean, they already have a god whose one job is to destroy things, and Toddler Azathoth casually unmakes whole universes. Plus, the Enemy killed off a lot of strong fighters, which doesn't seem like the sort of thing Zen-O would approve of.
 
Simon_Jester said:
If they were all in on it, they wouldn't 'need' the Enemy, they'd just do whatever they pleased instead of doing it through a proxy. I mean, they already have a god whose one job is to destroy things, and Toddler Azathoth casually unmakes whole universes. Plus, the Enemy killed off a lot of strong fighters, which doesn't seem like the sort of thing Zen-O would approve of.
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I mean, there's obviously something we don't know going on here. I'm just not willing to rule out "incomprehensibly powerful extra-universal entities have motives/incentives we don't expect" in favor of "incomprehensibly powerful extra-universal entities have restrictions/limitations we don't expect."
 
Deathbybunnies said:
...If Dragon Balls are made by capturing Void Dragons and imprisoning them in balls, where did they get the dragon that's used for the Super Dragon Balls? Are there others?
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Porunga and Shenlong got drunk one day and combined their powers, each egging the other on, until finally they both wished really, really hard and created a dragon with unlimited potential for growth.

Then they sent if off for training.
 
I mean, the clincher for me is that the broad characterization of the gods in Dragonball's setting is fairly consistent across multiple story arcs and even multiple series.

Namely, the gods are subdivided into two classes.

Some are weak but well-intentioned beings who rely on mortals to stop other mortals from running roughshod over creation. Others are rather petulant and lazy beings who routinely let mortals run roughshod over creation.

Either they are surprisingly weak given the scope of their responsibilities (King Kai, Shin)... Or they are terrifyingly powerful and yet swerve wildly between not using their power at all, and using it in disproportionate or destructive ways (Beerus, Zen-O).

...

There really doesn't seem to be a third category of deity in the main canon of the series-es. No elemental forces of intense purposefulness; the gods strong enough to be true 'forces of nature' can usually be distracted by throwing a party. No subtle, brilliant chessmasters manipulating mortal pawns in eons-old games for dominance; the best you can hope for is that they'll train you with a neat power-up or two. No powerful lords and ladies of light who can be prayed to for divine intervention; if you want the bad guy of the arc stopped, you're going to have to power up and do it yourself.

It's pretty much either-or. Either the gods aren't strong enough to solve the problem without a mortal champion, or they're strong enough all right, but they're as likely as not to be the problem you need a mortal champion to save you from in the first place!

And the way Poptart is portraying the otherworld and the gods' reaction to the Enemy is totally in keeping with this. The gods who might care about preventing mass destruction lack the powerful champions it would take to do anything about him- which is where we come in. The gods who could plausibly get rid of him without TOO much trouble lack the motivation to take even slight risks by bothering to do so. Even if the Enemy destroy the entire universe, they may reason, Zen-O can just make a new one. Right now all he's doing is randomly going around killing planets and super-beings, which is what they do anyway when they're not lounging around.

...

Basically, it just FITS the world of Dragonball the way that 'the Enemy is a proxy for some other powerful being in the divine hierarchy" doesn't seem to fit, at least to me.

Deathbybunnies said:
...If Dragon Balls are made by capturing Void Dragons and imprisoning them in balls, where did they get the dragon that's used for the Super Dragon Balls? Are there others?
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Dazarel may have only a vague idea how dragonballs actually work.

Just because he IS a dragon, doesn't mean he understands everything there is to know about dragons, any more than the average human knows everything (or even anything) about being human by virtue of having a human body.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Basically, it just FITS the world of Dragonball the way that 'the Enemy is a proxy for some other powerful being in the divine hierarchy" doesn't seem to fit, at least to me.
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Eh. I'll grant that it probably fits better, but I don't think we have enough information yet to be ruling out either possibility. Mostly my point here is that we should account for the possibility not just of apathy but of active hostility from the divine hierarchy when making long-term plans about what to do regarding the Enemy. It's a contingency with high enough risk, and non-zero enough likelihood, to be worth taking into consideration. That said, our previous disagreement regarding infosec with Bassoon has made it clear that - for whatever reason - you oppose taking precautions that you think unlikely to be necessary so I suppose I'm not surprised we differ here too.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Some are weak but well-intentioned beings who rely on mortals to stop other mortals from running roughshod over creation. Others are rather petulant and lazy beings who routinely let mortals run roughshod over creation.

Either they are surprisingly weak given the scope of their responsibilities (King Kai, Shin)... Or they are terrifyingly powerful and yet swerve wildly between not using their power at all, and using it in disproportionate or destructive ways (Beerus, Zen-O).
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Simon_Jester said:
There really doesn't seem to be a third category of deity in the main canon of the series-es. No elemental forces of intense purposefulness; the gods strong enough to be true 'forces of nature' can usually be distracted by throwing a party. No subtle, brilliant chessmasters manipulating mortal pawns in eons-old games for dominance; the best you can hope for is that they'll train you with a neat power-up or two. No powerful lords and ladies of light who can be prayed to for divine intervention; if you want the bad guy of the arc stopped, you're going to have to power up and do it yourself.
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You're forgetting the gods of the higher ranked universes. Who are competent and motivated to do their job. Where the Supreme Kai's create plans and subtly guide mortals, while Gods of Destructions that are relentless and efficient in their duties, ensuring "evil" doesn't spread.
 
Wiadi said:
Eh. I'll grant that it probably fits better, but I don't think we have enough information yet to be ruling out either possibility. Mostly my point here is that we should account for the possibility not just of apathy but of active hostility from the divine hierarchy when making long-term plans about what to do regarding the Enemy. It's a contingency with high enough risk, and non-zero enough likelihood, to be worth taking into consideration. That said, our previous disagreement regarding infosec with Bassoon has made it clear that - for whatever reason - you oppose taking precautions that you think unlikely to be necessary so I suppose I'm not surprised we differ here too.
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It's mostly that there are two basic approaches we can take overall.

One is ultra-cautious, avoiding everything we can conceive to be a risk. If a thing COULD bite us in the butt, we don't do it. We stay away, we stay cagey.

The other is less-cautious, wherein we avoid the known and conspicuous risks, and keep our eyes open for unknown risks (including things like "the Enemy has a divine backer")... but where we still decide that YES, we're going to engage with people and do things that present a more-than-0% chance of SOMEHOW biting us in the butt.

The reason I advocate the latter approach over the former is that we're almost certainly not going to overcome the Enemy at all just by sitting around and brainstorming ways to power up. Not without a ton of information, training techniques, allies, and resources that the outside galaxy has to offer.

I mean hell, from where we stand (or ethereally hover, rather) we can't even beat Dandeer without that stuff. Let alone the Enemy.

The way I figure it, we can't succeed by trusting literally no one, or allying with no one, or acting like a secretive person no one else can trust. That might be viable for Jaffur Quest, but not for Kakara Quest.

Gore17 said:
You're forgetting the gods of the higher ranked universes. Who are competent and motivated to do their job. Where the Supreme Kai's create plans and subtly guide mortals, while Gods of Destructions that are relentless and efficient in their duties, ensuring "evil" doesn't spread.
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Well sure, but we live in the goofy-ass universe.
 
[X] Just relax. Kais on high, it's been less than twenty-four hours since you were kneeling in the mud at Dandeer's feet! Bassoon has been awake for longer than you've been banished! Just take some time and let it all out.
 
Considering RP spoilers...

The Enemy is a void mage. Can you wish to get rid of something that already doesn't technically exist?
 
[X] Test out your Sight. Whatever Sensei put on your Sight, you noticing and circumventing it has opened up a vast array of new potential. Map out what has changed, and get a feel for your new limits.
 
Aranfan said:
Considering RP spoilers...

The Enemy is a void mage. Can you wish to get rid of something that already doesn't technically exist?
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So, we're fighting the collective evil energy of Hell turned into a sentient Spirit Bomb? Now I'm wondering if there's some kind of Universe Crystal that regulates things and ensures things run properly and, you know, don't collapse back into the primordial nothingness that was around before the universes existed.

Might be a powerful magical focus if it did exist because something a ⌈Real⌋ as the universe's core would probably make it real easy to add or subtract things from reality. Or it might just turn off magic in it's presence because it doesn't like people screwing with reality like that. 50-50 really.
 
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For those in the RP, I would remind you that Poptart has said in the past that the Enemy in Kakara's Universe may not be the same as the Enemy that other timelines have seen.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
It's mostly that there are two basic approaches we can take overall.

One is ultra-cautious, avoiding everything we can conceive to be a risk. If a thing COULD bite us in the butt, we don't do it. We stay away, we stay cagey.

The other is less-cautious, wherein we avoid the known and conspicuous risks, and keep our eyes open for unknown risks (including things like "the Enemy has a divine backer")... but where we still decide that YES, we're going to engage with people and do things that present a more-than-0% chance of SOMEHOW biting us in the butt.

The reason I advocate the latter approach over the former is that we're almost certainly not going to overcome the Enemy at all just by sitting around and brainstorming ways to power up. Not without a ton of information, training techniques, allies, and resources that the outside galaxy has to offer.

I mean hell, from where we stand (or ethereally hover, rather) we can't even beat Dandeer without that stuff. Let alone the Enemy.

The way I figure it, we can't succeed by trusting literally no one, or allying with no one, or acting like a secretive person no one else can trust. That might be viable for Jaffur Quest, but not for Kakara Quest.
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Okay, see, all I'm actually advocating here is the "keep our eyes open for unknown risks" thing - I'm not saying we should assume that the Enemy has a divine backer, just that we should account for that as a possible thing we need to plan for. I don't see how that's opposed to your preferred approach. You seem to be conflating "cautious awareness of possible threats" with "refusal to expose ourselves to any such possible threat in any way."

That said, I do think we can succeed while not trusting anyone until they've earned it, which Bassoon hadn't/hasn't yet.
 
Wiadi said:
Okay, see, all I'm actually advocating here is the "keep our eyes open for unknown risks" thing - I'm not saying we should assume that the Enemy has a divine backer, just that we should account for that as a possible thing we need to plan for. I don't see how that's opposed to your preferred approach. You seem to be conflating "cautious awareness of possible threats" with "refusal to expose ourselves to any such possible threat in any way."

That said, I do think we can succeed while not trusting anyone until they've earned it, which Bassoon hadn't/hasn't yet.
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Suffice to say that I think distrust of Bassoon under the circumstances was excessive caution, while thinking that contemplating the idea that the Enemy may have allies unknown to us (including gods) is not excessive caution.

I believe that there is a self-consistent extremely cautious strategy that is unlikely to result in the downfall of the Enemy. It would probably work better if this were Jaffur Quest.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
All discussion relating to the RP must be conducted in spoilers.
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I actually have only read about 5 posts of the RP, from the earliest points.

I see where that may not have been clear in my post, and have altered it. I used only information you provided in this thread in my post, but will remove my post if you like.

Specifically, at one point (presumably when the RP discovered who the being they call 'The Enemy' is) RP discussion focused around this briefly (not anything specific, but references to stuff about it from the RP) and you indicated that the Enemy in the RP was not necessarily the Enemy in Kakara's timeline.

Given the additional detail we have had recently, I thought it made sense to reiterate that.
 
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