Dragon Ball: After the End

nkd1325 · Oct 13, 2018

So something that I don't think has been brought up yet. We're going to New Namek after we're done here therefore DRAGON BALLS!(unless they are using them right now in which case we can reserve their next use) So what are we wishing for if we can?

A new body would be nice so we can properly train but that could cause all kinds of weirdness with meeting our old one when we return home. We could wish to repossess our old one and bring it to Namek but that would alert Dandeer that we've found some way to transport a body indeterminate distances without her knowledge. It wouldn't be a stretch to realize we've got a wish on the Dragon Balls and we want to deny her ANY knowledge of what we're doing.

Knowledge is another choice such as getting the SSG ritual for a rainy day but we could probably past sight that.... wait unless I'm miss remembering the SSG ritual is lost knowledge to the Exiles but why couldn't the Seers have past sighted the ritual? Well that's a thought for another time. There's the option of asking for knowledge about The Enemy but i have a feeling that'd just cause Porunga to freak out worse than Shenron did when he realized Beerus was there and give us nothing. Last on the knowledge front I can think of is giving Jaffur knowledge on how to magic better (such as how to improve the Wards to SS2 levels) as the way it seems to work is unless Dandeer sees him do magic at an absurd level and asks specifically how he learned it he'd never have to tell her. Of course she could have changed it after the incident with the Seers not telling her about the plot due to a logic loophole.

Any other suggestions?

Cariyaga · Oct 13, 2018

nkd1325 said:
So something that I don't think has been brought up yet. We're going to New Namek after we're done here therefore DRAGON BALLS!(unless they are using them right now in which case we can reserve their next use) So what are we wishing for if we can?

A new body would be nice so we can properly train but that could cause all kinds of weirdness with meeting our old one when we return home. We could wish to repossess our old one and bring it to Namek but that would alert Dandeer that we've found some way to transport a body indeterminate distances without her knowledge. It wouldn't be a stretch to realize we've got a wish on the Dragon Balls and we want to deny her ANY knowledge of what we're doing.

Knowledge is another choice such as getting the SSG ritual for a rainy day but we could probably past sight that.... wait unless I'm miss remembering the SSG ritual is lost knowledge to the Exiles but why couldn't the Seers have past sighted the ritual? Well that's a thought for another time. There's the option of asking for knowledge about The Enemy but i have a feeling that'd just cause Porunga to freak out worse than Shenron did when he realized Beerus was there and give us nothing. Last on the knowledge front I can think of is giving Jaffur knowledge on how to magic better (such as how to improve the Wards to SS2 levels) as the way it seems to work is unless Dandeer sees him do magic at an absurd level and asks specifically how he learned it he'd never have to tell her. Of course she could have changed it after the incident with the Seers not telling her about the plot due to a logic loophole.

Any other suggestions?

I'm guessing reviving everyone that ever was is right out?

nkd1325 · Oct 13, 2018

Cariyaga said:
I'm guessing reviving everyone that ever was is right out?

Pretty sure you can't resurrect from death by old age so yeah. Besides Namek's Dragon balls are a one resurrection per wish deal so we'd be able to get 3 people at most.

Cariyaga · Oct 13, 2018

Well, we could ask the dragon if it would like to be free, and wish it free.

QTesseract · Oct 13, 2018

Cariyaga said:
I'm guessing reviving everyone that ever was is right out?

I'm honestly not sure why we would want to. Eventually, sure, but until then much longer down the line I'm not sure we could meaningfully improve conditions (and would probably decrease them), but remember that unlike RL dbverse has a confirmed afterlife. There are also limits on the power of the dragons, so it might just be outright impossible without super dragon balls anyway.

nkd1325 · Oct 13, 2018

Cariyaga said:
Well, we could ask the dragon if it would like to be free, and wish it free.

As we'd need to speak to Porunga in Namekian to get a wish we'd need a translator and I'm pretty sure nobody is willing to give up the limitless and relatively drawback free wish granter.

ilbgar123 · Oct 13, 2018

So, can we wish for the Saiyan race to have magic collectively? Or for our Ki to be undetectable? Hey, hold on, can we wish for Skill-ups? I mean, if people can wish for immortality, gaining a skill-up of some kind seems downright mundane by comparison. If we can, could we wish to have Exceptional in multiple things at once?

QTesseract · Oct 13, 2018

One thing I would like to bring up is that the Namekians have had these dragon balls, for hundreds of years, at thee wishes a go more than once a year, with many many people to brainstorm possibilities. That's literally thousands of wishes, which means the efficient market hypothesis is out in some force; either something is being done, or it's probably not worth doing.

To be more specific, when considering wishes, we should take into account that almost one of these always has to be true:
1. Porunga cannot grant the wish
2. The namekians do not consider the wish worth the cost (opportunity cost at minimum)
3. The namekians do not approve of the wish.
4. The namekians have been using wishes along these lines
5. The wish requires something unique to Kakara (otherworld / etc) or at least pseudo unique (think saiyan god).

I think this framework is important, because it brings up the fact that direct power improvement wishes likely aren't possible, or are only possible within limited bounds; if you could freely bring every saiyan to 100 Million with a wish, one wonders why Bassoon is only at 20 million. Ditto for adding abilities like magic and psionics, unless Basoon turns out to be a seer this whole time.

Cariyaga · Oct 13, 2018

By the way, hope things are going well for you in whatever endeavours you face, @PoptartProdigy.

QTesseract said:
One thing I would like to bring up is that the Namekians have had these dragon balls, for hundreds of years, at thee wishes a go more than once a year, with many many people to brainstorm possibilities. That's literally thousands of wishes, which means the efficient market hypothesis is out in some force; either something is being done, or it's probably not worth doing.

To be more specific, when considering wishes, we should take into account that almost one of these always has to be true:
1. Porunga cannot grant the wish
2. The namekians do not consider the wish worth the cost (opportunity cost at minimum)
3. The namekians do not approve of the wish.
4. The namekians have been using wishes along these lines
5. The wish requires something unique to Kakara (otherworld / etc) or at least pseudo unique (think saiyan god).

I think this framework is important, because it brings up the fact that direct power improvement wishes likely aren't possible, or are only possible within limited bounds; if you could freely bring every saiyan to 100 Million with a wish, one wonders why Bassoon is only at 20 million. Ditto for adding abilities like magic and psionics, unless Basoon turns out to be a seer this whole time.

You know, it's possible that he can grant magic, but not the Sight, and that's why namekians have skill in magic.

Pittauro · Oct 14, 2018

Cariyaga said:
You know, it's possible that he can grant magic, but not the Sight, and that's why namekians have skill in magic

So they used magic to make themselves a magical wish-granting dragon so they could get magic

...seems legit.

By the way now I'm wondering how the creation of dragonballs actually work. If the dragon is not created, but instead... Transformed by magic, where did Kami find Shenron?

Cariyaga · Oct 14, 2018

Pittauro said:
So they used magic to make themselves a magical wish-granting dragon so they could get magic

...seems legit.

By the way now I'm wondering how the creation of dragonballs actually work. If the dragon is not created, but instead... Transformed by magic, where did Kami find Shenron?

Time travel.

Pittauro · Oct 14, 2018

Cariyaga said:
Time travel.

I was about to say that, sadly I could not refute that... But Db does not uses stable time loops!

There would need to be an original timeline in which they got magic without the dragon... And how would they have gotten magic there in the first place?

Also, on a secondary note... The time patrol protects the ORIGINAL timeline from being changed, doesn't it?

...now that it think about it, shouldn't the original timeline be the "future trunks" one? If so, the focus on ours doesn't really make sense. Or does every timeline have its own time patrol?

...time travel makes everything complicated

Cariyaga · Oct 14, 2018

Pittauro said:
I was about to say that, sadly I could not refute that... But Db does not uses stable time loops!

There would need to be an original timeline in which they got magic without the dragon... And how would they have gotten magic there in the first place?

Also, on a secondary note... The time patrol protects the ORIGINAL timeline from being changed, doesn't it?

...now that it think about it, shouldn't the original timeline be the "future trunks" one? If so, the focus on ours doesn't really make sense. Or does every timeline have its own time patrol?

...time travel makes everything complicated

There's lots of ways Namekians might have originally sealed Porunga. It's possible that they originally had a percentage of sorcerors similar to saiyan-hybrids, and were able to wish themselves more, etc. etc.

KaintukeeBob · Oct 14, 2018

Pittauro said:
So they used magic to make themselves a magical wish-granting dragon so they could get magic

...seems legit.

Not all Namekians are skilled in magic. So, in theory, the first Dragon Clan Namekian who created wish-granting balls (no matter the origin of the dragon) could have used the magic to grant other Namekians ability with magic (presuming such a thing is possible).

Sucal · Oct 14, 2018

Pittauro said:
and now the question becomes: why didn't they wish the enemy away?

Because they are the size of planets and scatter across multiple galaxies when used (at least through Universes 6 and 7, and maybe the other 10).

Generally speaking, if you are strong enough to gather the Super Dragon Balls, chances are you don't actually need to use them. Almost every wish we've seen preformed on the Super Dragon Balls, likely could have been done with the Namekian or Earth Dragonballs, save for the end of the most recent saga.

Gore17 · Oct 14, 2018

Sucal said:
Because they are the size of planets and scatter across multiple galaxies when used (at least through Universes 6 and 7, and maybe the other 10).

Generally speaking, if you are strong enough to gather the Super Dragon Balls, chances are you don't actually need to use them. Almost every wish we've seen preformed on the Super Dragon Balls, likely could have been done with the Namekian or Earth Dragonballs, save for the end of the most recent saga.

Well, not sure about wishing U6's Earth back. There seems to be limits on restoring things based on how far back said event was, and U6's Earth seemed to have been dead for a long time.

As for switching bodies with Goku and Immortality, it's unknown if Shenron or Porunga could switch Goku considering his power(and Zamasu likely didn't know about them), while as for the Immortality, I imagine that it being done by the Super Dragonballs ensures it can't be undone by less then the same.

ElleonXan · Oct 14, 2018

Pittauro said:
By the way now I'm wondering how the creation of dragonballs actually work. If the dragon is not created, but instead... Transformed by magic, where did Kami find Shenron?

This is twigging me too. Especially since, if I'm remembering correctly, the explanation we got in the original DB manga said that Popo created the dragon statue and Kami used his magic to bring it to life...

So the way I see it, either Kami didn't know exactly what he was doing and actually performed some sort of summoning ritual instead of bringing life to the statue... or the Earth's dragon balls were made with a different technique.

I'm sort of leaning towards the second one myself, as I don't recall a statue ever being brought up in relation to Porunga or the Super Dragon Balls.

Well, either that or maybe Namekian magic is so powerful it can create void dragons... but that's a whole different kettle of fish, isn't it?

QTesseract · Oct 14, 2018

ElleonXan said:
This is twigging me too. Especially since, if I'm remembering correctly, the explanation we got in the original DB manga said that Popo created the dragon statue and Kami used his magic to bring it to life...

So the way I see it, either Kami didn't know exactly what he was doing and actually performed some sort of summoning ritual instead of bringing life to the statue... or the Earth's dragon balls were made with a different technique.

I'm sort of leaning towards the second one myself, as I don't recall a statue ever being brought up in relation to Porunga or the Super Dragon Balls.

Well, either that or maybe Namekian magic is so powerful it can create void dragons... but that's a whole different kettle of fish, isn't it?

Dazazel could just be wrong, too.

PoptartProdigy · Oct 14, 2018

Did I close this?

No.

Yes.

Vote Tally : Dragon Ball: After the End - Sci-Fi | Page 1355 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 33860-33914]
##### NetTally 1.9.10

[X] Just relax. Kais on high, it's been less than twenty-four hours since you were kneeling in the mud at Dandeer's feet! Bassoon has been awake for longer than you've been banished! Just take some time and let it all out.
No. of Votes: 20

[X] Spend time testing the limits of your new form. You've spent time in this before, but this is a new situation. See if anything has changed.
No. of Votes: 7

Deathbybunnies
Bakkasama
Beholderofwords
Bommelom
Grigori
veekie
WorthyAlchemist?

[X] Catch Dazarel, wherever he's flown to, and grill the little fucker. What does he know about the galaxy? Why does Grandpa think Dazarel in particular is going to be helpful?
No. of Votes: 5

Cariyaga
Jirachi47
LeMat
mithril-blade
Simon_Jester

[X] Test out your Sight. Whatever Sensei put on your Sight, you noticing and circumventing it has opened up a vast array of new potential. Map out what has changed, and get a feel for your new limits.
No. of Votes: 3

Simon_Jester
glamps
Jirachi47

[X] Test out your Sight. Whatever Sensei put on your Sight, you noticing and circumventing it has opened up a vast array of new potential. Map out what has changed, and get a feel for your new limits.
-[X] Focus on Present Sight and see what you can learn about Toru, the Saiyan Bassoon told you about. You want to know if he's still alive, and if so, where you might be able to find him.
No. of Votes: 2

Geordiefan
FakePriest

[X] Test out your Sight. Whatever Sensei put on your Sight, you noticing and circumventing it has opened up a vast array of new potential. Map out what has changed, and get a feel for your new limits.
-[X] Focus on Past Sight, reviewing our interactions with Sensei.
No. of Votes: 1

KaintukeeBob

Total No. of Voters: 30

[X] Just relax. Kais on high, it's been less than twenty-four hours since you were kneeling in the mud at Dandeer's feet! Bassoon has been awake for longer than you've been banished! Just take some time and let it all out.

The Sight vote split pretty badly, and half of those supporting for it voted incorrectly, but it never had a chance, anyway. The relaxers have it!

Pittauro · Oct 14, 2018

QTesseract said:
Dazazel could just be wrong, too.

Well, the name is Dazarel, so Dazazel IS actually wrong

Simon_Jester · Oct 14, 2018

nkd1325 said:
So something that I don't think has been brought up yet. We're going to New Namek after we're done here therefore DRAGON BALLS!(unless they are using them right now in which case we can reserve their next use) So what are we wishing for if we can?

Well, immortality is certainly tempting but that never ends well and might antagonize the Namekians. Since we'd probably be relying on them to translate for us, that's a no-no.

A new body would be nice so we can properly train but that could cause all kinds of weirdness with meeting our old one when we return home. We could wish to repossess our old one and bring it to Namek but that would alert Dandeer that we've found some way to transport a body indeterminate distances without her knowledge. It wouldn't be a stretch to realize we've got a wish on the Dragon Balls and we want to deny her ANY knowledge of what we're doing.

Dandeer knows we know Instant Transmission, which is ALSO a way to cause things to disappear out from under your nose. And at this point I think she doesn't have a very clear picture of what we can and cannot do in general. She may well not deduce the facts, and moreover, "Kakara's shade got to a set of Dragon Balls" isn't intelligence she can really act on except by doing all the same things she'd be doing already.

Furthermore, even if this is true, it might still be worth it to avoid either the drawback of there being two Kakaras with only one Kakara-mind between them, OR the drawback of us not having a body.

I think we should seriously consider the merits of summoning Kakara's real body to us, versus having a body created FOR us. We should also make sure that if we do get a body created for us, it allows us to use our full power; the certainty of being able to use our full body.

Knowledge is another choice such as getting the SSG ritual for a rainy day but we could probably past sight that.... wait unless I'm miss remembering the SSG ritual is lost knowledge to the Exiles but why couldn't the Seers have past sighted the ritual?

They may have encountered interference from deities who don't want the stress of dealing with tens, hundreds, or thousands of saiyan gods. There may be some component of the ritual that cannot be understood just by watching it through Sight, as is presumably the case with the Spirit Bomb.

Well that's a thought for another time. There's the option of asking for knowledge about The Enemy but i have a feeling that'd just cause Porunga to freak out worse than Shenron did when he realized Beerus was there and give us nothing.

Huh. Good idea. Worth discussing.

Last on the knowledge front I can think of is giving Jaffur knowledge on how to magic better (such as how to improve the Wards to SS2 levels) as the way it seems to work is unless Dandeer sees him do magic at an absurd level and asks specifically how he learned it he'd never have to tell her. Of course she could have changed it after the incident with the Seers not telling her about the plot due to a logic loophole.

Wishing for a buff to Jaffur might actually be an appealing option.

Wishing for the seals on Jaffur's mind to be broken might ALSO be an appealing option, though Porunga might not be able to do that if they're powered by the energy of super-saiyans.

...

One thing we should seriously consider in ANY case is using the Sight to try and foresee any potential disastrous direct results of any wishes we choose to make. Good way to avoid Monkey's Paw outcomes.

Sucal · Oct 15, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
One thing we should seriously consider in ANY case is using the Sight to try and foresee any potential disastrous direct results of any wishes we choose to make. Good way to avoid Monkey's Paw outcomes.

Better way to cause monkey paw outcomes. The sight isn't infallible.

Simon_Jester · Oct 15, 2018

Sucal said:
Better way to cause monkey paw outcomes. The sight isn't infallible.

I dunno. I feel like the dumbass decisions we make with SOME information will probably be less dumbass than the decisions we make with NO information and just winging it.

Remember how wonderfully the decision to not use Sight to predict outcomes related to the Unsealing turned out?

Let's not make that particular mistake again. If we accidentally get sucked into a self-fulfilling prophecy or something, at least we can't say we didn't try to use the abilities at our disposal to avert disaster.

Marty7928 · Oct 15, 2018

If we ever get the chance to make a wish, the thread will probably tear itself apart.

Cariyaga · Oct 15, 2018

Marty7928 said:
If we ever get the chance to make a wish, the thread will probably tear itself apart.

A memevote like wishing for a cupcake will win.

Dragon Ball: After the End

KNIGHT OF ORANGE

Handsome Gentleperson

KNIGHT OF ORANGE

Handsome Gentleperson

Biribiri

KNIGHT OF ORANGE

Biribiri

Handsome Gentleperson

Handsome Gentleperson

Handsome Gentleperson

The Devil’s Cut

Self-Proclaimed King of the Dumpster Fires

Biribiri

Lawful Evil

The Devil’s Cut

Handsome Gentleperson