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Dragon Ball: After the End

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PoptartProdigy said:
The thing that makes oozaru different from normal combat is not exactly discomfort with the form -- although inevitably, people are going to be less practiced at controlling it than the one in which they spend most of their days -- but rather the fact that it's shaped and built differently. We have different martial arts techniques and practices for tall vs. short people, IRL. Imagine how different a martial arts form optimized for gargantuan apes would be.
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Yeah, I get that, I was just using the Masque as an example from strictly a mechanics perspective (skill rises, debuff decreases.) I guess it would be a skill to translate humnan/saiyan tactics/movements to Oozaru equivalents? I suggested Hand-To-Hand because the differences would be mostly in Hand-To-Hand (and the physical movements required for Ki attacks could be argued to fall under such.)

chryssalideater said:
Also if we're testing out this system thoroughly, we should be playing for keeps, as that's what we normally do.
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Playing for keeps isn't really covered by the mechanics though, so prolonging the fight doesn't sacrifice anything there.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Yeah, I get that, I was just using the Masque as an example from strictly a mechanics perspective (skill rises, debuff decreases.) I guess it would be a skill to translate humnan/saiyan tactics/movements to Oozaru equivalents? I suggested Hand-To-Hand because the differences would be mostly in Hand-To-Hand (and the physical movements required for Ki attacks could be argued to fall under such.)
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You would need to scratch-build an Oozaru Style.
 
[X] Dart in close and take your time with this bastard. Let him feel how helpless he is. Don't go straight for the kill; just spend your time knocking him around. (Canon route, x2 vote weighting.)
 
QTesseract said:
I honestly disagree, heavily. Look over what *happens* in z. It starts out with him living with Gohan full time as a parent, and the first time that changes is when Goku dies to save his son's life.

Goku spend essentially all of gohan's childhood raising gohan (8 years), doing training that ends up being needed to save gohan's life (2 years), or out of commission from the injuries he sustained saving gohan (8 years split across 2-4 times).

The only real counter is Goku not getting revived post cell, which was not a great move on his part but was also an attempt to protect gohan and chichi. Goten has much the same distribution. His kids seem to love their time together, he loves being with them, and he cares for them deeply; if his literal self sacrifices don't give it away, then the Goku Black fight after Black brags about killing Goten and Chichi would also be a good example.

It's honestly one of the few things that TFS has contributed to that annoy me, because their "Goku is a bad dad" jokes end up getting referred to as canon which is honestly a shame. They didn't come up with it, and honestly even do a pretty good job of showing that it isn't what it's called out as even within the show, but I think their popularity is honestly one of the bigger things that's kept that as a the default headcanon.
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The "joke" was around long before them.
 
[X] Dart in close and take your time with this bastard. Let him feel how helpless he is. Don't go straight for the kill; just spend your time knocking him around. (Canon route, x2 vote weighting.)
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work, we aren't half-Oozaru.

...I wonder if getting to 100% Human Masque would let us keep training our PL in it past our Saiyan "cap"? We can't go Super Saiyan in it because that's purely a Saiyan thing, but by the same logic the PL cap is a purely Saiyan thing too.
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If so, well... we could do that as a shade, too.
 
QTesseract said:
I'm well aware. The fact remains that they're probably the biggest influence on the DB fan base outside of *maybe* the official work itself, and they aren't helping matters. I know some people who first became exposed to DBZ through DBZA picked it up from there, for instance.
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Well, Episode 60 seems to be reducing the damage a bit from the perspective of the work as a whole, but I definitely understand and to some extent share your feelings on the matter.

It also exaggerates Goku's general cluelessness, with similar effects.

chryssalideater said:
I'm not really talking about him not spending time with Gohan, more him not understanding Gohan. Or why people would want him around even though he was protecting them by not being there. Goku doesn't really understand people too well, and while it's mainly played for goofs, it's still part of his character.
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Well, there comes a point at which it's unfair to say that "Goku is congenitally not very good at understanding people"* translates into "Goku is a bad father for not understanding his son."

Especially when his son's very biological imperatives are subtly different from his own because from his frame of reference, he literally married a space alien and his son was raised by space aliens.

I'd say that Goku did about the best he could as a father given his weaknesses (understanding people who don't share his attitude toward life) and his strengths (strength). Even if he wasn't a good father, he wasn't a bad one. A mediocre father in general, perhaps, at least outside of his very indisputable willingness to sacrifice his life to keep his son safe for which one normally awards bonus points.

...

The thing is, just killing Frieza faster on Namek wouldn't have made him a better father than he was.

Because insofar as Goku had failings as a father, by your own argument they were about how he related or didn't relate to his son emotionally, not on account of a deficiency in his beating up of bad guys.

[I mean shit, if your father is Goku and your complaint is that he doesn't beat up bad guys vigorously enough, you're going to be hard to please. :p ]
[Yes that last line was basically mostly a joke ;) ]
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*(hell, this may be a saiyan thing; can we think of a single full-blooded canon saiyan with GOOD social skills)
 
Cariyaga said:
If so, well... we could do that as a shade, too.
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Certainly worth looking into, though even if it is the case rising 750 million(*0.05) to match our regular body would take an awfully long time, so I wouldn't expect to outmatch it before we return.

HoratioVonBecker said:
We're close, though. And we could probably handle a Masque that works when we're already transformed into Oozaru and just makes us human-sized.
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We'd need an Exile sorcerer to do it for us though, and we won't have any of those anytime soon.

Though we could always start that research project about combining our Oozaru and Saiyan base forms into one base form with the combined Power Level. It would give us a PL of 1.675 billion at FPSSJ, which is the same as a freshly-ascended SSJ2 in Saiyan base form.

Simon_Jester said:
*(hell, this may be a saiyan thing; can we think of a single full-blooded canon saiyan with GOOD social skills)
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They have great social skills! They're just calibrated for other Saiyans, by which standards everyone else is socially inept, with a weird emphasis on feelings and talking it out and the like. Saiyans like fighting!
 
Deathbybunnies said:
...I wonder if getting to 100% Human Masque would let us keep training our PL in it past our Saiyan "cap"? We can't go Super Saiyan in it because that's purely a Saiyan thing, but by the same logic the PL cap is a purely Saiyan thing too.
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It's possible, but since our Masque PL rises by acclimating to the masqued form rather than by training, I don't think our Masque has a separate power level the same way as Oozaru does.
Cariyaga said:
If so, well... we could do that as a shade, too.
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I don't think we'll be able to train our power level as a shade at all, actually, since power level has to do with your body, and we can't exactly train our body if we don't have one.

The best thing to train right now seems to be Ki Refinement (Jaffur's trick) and potentially Tabe Stauber's trick as well.
Simon_Jester said:
*(hell, this may be a saiyan thing; can we think of a single full-blooded canon saiyan with GOOD social skills)
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I mean, to be fair, we haven't really seen a full-blooded Saiyan raised in a normal family either.

Vegeta, Raditz and Nappa where all brought up by a society that sends babies to exterminate planets, and Goku was raised by a hermit living alone in the woods with absolutely no contact with others until he was 12 years old.

They probably wouldn't be all that good at dealing with people even if they had been humans.
 
Bommelom said:
It's possible, but since our Masque PL rises by acclimating to the masqued form rather than by training, I don't think our Masque has a separate power level the same way as Oozaru does.
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Yeah, it's unlikely or we'd have heard about regular Saiyans managing it by now. But it could be a workable Elite Talent if we decided it was worth it?
Bommelom said:
I don't think we'll be able to train our power level as a shade at all, actually, since power level has to do with your body, and we can't exactly train our body if we don't have one.

The best thing to train right now seems to be Ki Refinement (Jaffur's trick) and potentially Tabe Stauber's trick as well.
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We must be able to, or Jaffur wouldn't have been a FPSSJ in the disastrous fight, he'd have been at 140 Million or so. Maybe 200-300 Million from the Zenkai.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Yeah, it's unlikely or we'd have heard about regular Saiyans managing it by now. But it could be a workable Elite Talent if we decided it was worth it?

We must be able to, or Jaffur wouldn't have been a FPSSJ in the disastrous fight, he'd have been at 140 Million or so. Maybe 200-300 Million from the Zenkai.
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Jaffur was still inside his body, though, he was just sealed alongside his power (and either way, he couldn't break though the power cap either).
 
Bommelom said:
It's possible, but since our Masque PL rises by acclimating to the masqued form rather than by training, I don't think our Masque has a separate power level the same way as Oozaru does.
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Well, hm.

We know that we have at least three separate wells of power: base form, super-saiyan, and oozaru. Super-saiyan can be combined with base form (FPSS) or oozaru (Golden Oozaru). You're figuring we don't have a fourth well for our masqued form. Hmmmm.

@PoptartProdigy, is that correct? If Kakara were in her own body and using her abilities freely, and she Multiformed into a Masqued Karen Marsden and a base form Kakara Goku, the two forms would still be sharing the same pool of power, right? As in, you couldn't get a PL 300 million Karen and a PL 375 million Kakara?
 
Simon_Jester said:
Well, hm.

We know that we have at least three separate wells of power: base form, super-saiyan, and oozaru. Super-saiyan can be combined with base form (FPSS) or oozaru (Golden Oozaru). You're figuring we don't have a fourth well for our masqued form. Hmmmm.

@PoptartProdigy, is that correct? If Kakara were in her own body and using her abilities freely, and she Multiformed into a Masqued Karen Marsden and a base form Kakara Goku, the two forms would still be sharing the same pool of power, right? As in, you couldn't get a PL 300 million Karen and a PL 375 million Kakara?
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To be fair, if the reverse was true that would mean the sorcerers had loophole'd into creating 300 million PL out of nothing, which feels like it would have found a use by now.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Well, hm.

We know that we have at least three separate wells of power: base form, super-saiyan, and oozaru. Super-saiyan can be combined with base form (FPSS) or oozaru (Golden Oozaru). You're figuring we don't have a fourth well for our masqued form. Hmmmm.

@PoptartProdigy, is that correct? If Kakara were in her own body and using her abilities freely, and she Multiformed into a Masqued Karen Marsden and a base form Kakara Goku, the two forms would still be sharing the same pool of power, right? As in, you couldn't get a PL 300 million Karen and a PL 375 million Kakara?
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That would be very clever, and I actually considered it in early days, but what a Masque does is restrict the base power level, rather than create a new pool. So yes, Masqued and base multiformed Kakara would be splitting a pool, and you cannot get a free 300 million this way. Fun as that would be.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
That would be very clever, and I actually considered it in early days, but what a Masque does is restrict the base power level, rather than create a new pool. So yes, Masqued and base multiformed Kakara would be splitting a pool, and you cannot get a free 300 million this way. Fun as that would be.
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Does that mean it definitely can't go up past the cap? It seals away the "Saiyan" half of your body, along with whatever makes SSJ possible (oh hey, it's about as "relevant" as S-Cells will ever get) so it might seal away whatever blocks a Saiyan's PL from rising above the cap.

If it can go past the cap, does it stay past the cap when the user returns to their Saiyan form? It would explain why it hasn't come up if any gains made are reset upon returning to your true form, when the cap is back in place.
 
Willing to bet it can't, given that so many Saiyans who focus on training have worked and trained extensively in their Masques.

If they've hit their 15 million cap, I'm sure they'd notice their Masqued power level rising a few points over whatever their restricted PL is. Then they'd either know it broke 15 million when they reverted, or they'd have confirmation that it doesn't carry over.

They might not share the latter extensively though.
 
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