Dragon Ball: After the End

[ShadowAngelBeta]

[ ] Engage Yammar in hand-to-hand with Yammar.
[ ] Engage Yammar in hand-to-hand after being knocked off-balance due to your disengage failing.

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I don't know what anyone else read out of that, but I did get that feeling from the subtext. Maybe it could be made a bit more clear that that was the case, but it was there yes.

Next thing: people complaining that Dandeer is a boring villain- of course she's a boring villain, you engage with Yammar more than you do with her!

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And does every DB villain solely get explored through the lens of Goku? No. Kakara Hates Dandeer and had zero reason to try and engage with her. You can't blame us for playing the character.

Sure maybe we could have voted to try and engage her to get over that hate, but we had no incentive to bother to try. Not to mention she's basically a trap-master. Engaging with her would mean going to her, and that's just stupid. Even before we found out just how ridiculously good she is with magic with her massacre.

So... that's really not our fault. We played the character and this is how she saw Dandeer, so this is how we saw and will see Dandeer. And that was set in stone quite a while ago. You had a lot of time to change that if you had wanted to, but you didn't, so oh well. It just means we have an obstacle instead of a villain.

Aside from setting it up

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This. This right here. It doesn't matter what she did in the fight because she set up the board to win anyway. Her being able to set the board is why others are calling her God Mode Dandeer or whatever it is.

It's basically the same thing as Aizen "Just as Kaikaku" Sosuke.

I understand people's frustration. But this is over the line. I made an explicit appeal for civility and calm, and this is the response. You need to stop. This is too much by any reasonable definition. I sympathize with and understand your frustration, but you nevertheless really need to bring it back in.

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... U wot m8? Seriously, this is over the line? This has been downright civil. Salty as hell, but that's fire you're playing with when you put out an update like this, and you knew that.

You'd think you'd be happy no one is at each other throats.

I want to read about Ghost Kakara's Galactic Adventures.

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I don't want to be a ghost doing it, but getting off the planet for the rest of our life for a while would be nice.

Do you want me to quote all the examples?

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If Poptart was asking people not to be salty at all after the update, uhh... Really he shouldn't have posted at all then. I don't know what he was expecting, but a few words like that at the end of the update isn't going to stop people when they're already upset. Maybe make them think through their words a little better so it's not as angry or possibly just make them angrier.

Expecting people to not be salty at all after that update just shows a distinct lack of awareness of his playerbase, request to be calm or not.

 

[Rmnimoc]

See, important Poptart reasons. Now let's get in gear and figure out how to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, because if Kakara could will Dandeer to death through sheer saltiness, Dandeer would have died long ago.

Option 1 is listening to the vision. I can't really adequately describe how much I don't want her to listen to her supposed future self, because I hate the idea of accepting defeat here, I hate characters defined by regret like that future Kakara appears to be and lastly because Ghost Kakara's Galactic Adventures doesn't sound fun to me.

Option 2, the one I'd try in Kakara's shoes, is trying to replicate Vegeta's self destruct technique. Obviously this is a no go, for several reasons, not the least of which is Kakara is neither spiteful enough or desperate enough for this to be in character.

Option 3 is to try for SS2. This is an option, but it's not a great one. Of the three options I see, this is currently the best one, which is saying alot because it's not a good option by any stretch of the imagination. If we do this, we'll probably fail. Maybe also die.

Option 4 is to ?????. This is obviously the best option. I have no idea what it is though, but it's the option that'll turn this around and save the day so we can save our friend and get back to what we were doing.

If anyone has any idea what option 4 might be, now is a good time to say it.

 

[gamer50018]

I disagree. It wasn't the other fighters that stopped us, because they aren't meant to be enemies. What stopped us is Dandeer being a blatant Villan Sue who magically gets to do things that are literally specifically said to be outright impossible with no effort and no downsides.

 

[QTesseract]

@PoptartProdigy please don't pretend there was nothing YOU could have done, you are quite literally writing this story and could have balanced this any way you'd have liked.

Quite frankly, if a single 50/50 on not going after Vegeta was enough to lock us in to a loss, this entire encounter was poorly designed.

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Honestly? that's not fair at all. I don't like how this turned out either, but I would have really disliked if the only reasonw e won was behind the scenes meddling from @PoptartProdigy . For all that I have some issues at the moment, I am entirely confident that he hasn't been cheating it in the slightest, and would very much prefer that not change even in the opposite direction.

I can respect that you're still formulating a plan.

I would remind you that we can't just "grab Jaffur"; there are a couple of intervening steps involved, with the major one "breaking 100% free of our restraints".

I would argue against SSJ2 being a good option. That starts our Doomsday Timer, and assuming we don't just get dogpiled and killed by everyone present, and assuming we sort everything out, we're then left with little choice but seeking to shove our power levels and transformations as high as they will go as quickly as they will go. Which...doesn't actually appeal to me right now?
I'd rather save SSJ2 for when we have better Wards (perhaps using the materials from the Scout machine?).

I personally am actually super-intrigued by the first canned option; yes it sounds dangerous, but it also sounds like an adventure, and an adventure in the classic vein of the Dragonball franchise.

I want to read about Ghost Kakara's Galactic Adventures.

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I can see that, I guess. It's not the most interesting to me, but I can understand the appeal; I personally was actually sorta excited for Kakara's Afterlife Adventure, and this is mostly the same thing but in a less interesting setting.

 

[Bommelom]

This one i'm not sure. While it went against the foundational trait, Couldn't we simply kill Dandeer while we had her in our hands right now? I don't think Yammar could have stopped us, we just needed to release a bit of ki from the hand we held her with. She's too fragile (and unconscious) to survive.

Of course Kakara might have hesitated, and We don't know what failsafes Dandeer has in case of her death, but it was maybe THE only thing that still had a chance of working.

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I mean, from what happened with Jaffur and Dandeer earlier, I'm pretty sure this would have resulted in "Kakara hesitates to kill Dandeer, Yammar uses the opening to knock her out".

IT-ing to the other side of the planet and going for a Spirit Saiyan (and taking Dandeer with us) and/or killing her far away from Yammar is the only plan I believe might have worked with what I currently know, but if Poptart says it wouldn't have been possible I believe them, and that's not a plan we'd have been likely to take either way.

I mean, I personally believed this update would end with Yammar blasting us unconscious while we were trying to transmit memories to him, or Yammar getting information about where we were from Carrick and knocking us out the moment we IT-ed next to Dandeer, so that's why I'm personally not too bothered about this update. It went a lot better than I had thought it would.

 

[chryssalideater]

Hey @PoptartProdigy if you don't want people to create overly complicated elaborate write ins, maybe don't have the default option lead into this encounter. A great amount of trust was put in the NPC's and through them you. It's going to be very hard to not justify a subvote for every little thing that can go wrong from this point forward. That sucks for me because I hate the overly complicated votes, but I'll take that over losing like this, even if it means I can't really contribute.

EDIT: Ok see NOW I'm salty. Wasn't before, am now.

 

[Goi]

So the Dandeer fail should not of worked at all is what I am reading since dandeer mind slave can kill her yeah sounds right like Yammer should not do area blast because you know he should be prevented from killing his master by the direct order she gave

 

[Gore17]

@PoptartProdigy please don't pretend there was nothing YOU could have done, you are quite literally writing this story and could have balanced this any way you'd have liked.

Quite frankly, if a single 50/50 on not going after Vegeta was enough to lock us in to a loss, this entire encounter was poorly designed.

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50/50 what?

This. This right here. It doesn't matter what she did in the fight because she set up the board to win anyway. Her being able to set the board is why others are calling her God Mode Dandeer or whatever it is.

It's basically the same thing as Aizen "Just as Kaikaku" Sosuke.

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And there were plenty of chances for us to mess that up. We just missed them all.

... U wot m8? Seriously, this is over the line? This has been downright civil. Salty as hell, but that's fire you're playing with when you put out an update like this, and you knew that.

You'd think you'd be happy no one is at each other throats.

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If Poptart was asking people not to be salty at all after the update, uhh... Really he shouldn't have posted at all then. I don't know what he was expecting, but a few words like that at the end of the update isn't going to stop people when they're already upset. Maybe make them think through their words a little better or maybe even just make them angrier.

Expecting people to not be salty at all after that update just shows a distinct lack of awareness of his playerbase, request to be calm or not.

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Be salty all you want, just don't spread the salt around is the intent I believe.

I disagree. It wasn't the other fighters that stopped us, because they aren't meant to be enemies. What stopped us is Dandeer being a blatant Villan Sue who magically gets to do things that are literally specifically said to be outright impossible with no effort and no downsides.

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The only thing mentioned to be impossible is instantly taking over the minds of a SSJ with prior groundwork, which she did in fact have.

Hey @PoptartProdigy if you don't want people to create overly complicated elaborate write ins, maybe don't have the default option lead into this encounter. A great amount of trust was put in the NPC's and through them you. It's going to be very hard to not justify a subvote for every little thing that can go wrong from this point forward. That sucks for me because I hate the overly complicated votes, but I'll take that over losing like this, even if it means I can't really contribute.

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Thing is, we wouldn't have needed elaborate write-ins for this. There were multiple points we were given vote options for stuff that'd have given us an advantage in this. We passed over all of them.

 

[ShadowAngelBeta]

Hey @PoptartProdigy if you don't want people to create overly complicated elaborate write ins, maybe don't have the default option lead into this encounter. A great amount of trust was put in the NPC's and through them you. It's going to be very hard to not justify a subvote for every little thing that can go wrong from this point forward. That sucks for me because I hate the overly complicated votes, but I'll take that over losing like this, even if it means I can't really contribute.

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I remember this coming up before. ... I'm pretty sure i remember this coming up before anyway.

It didn't work then.

And if it's coming up again then something is wrong that was never addressed, yes. I don't know how to and Poptart needs to acknowledge it as well, if there is something wrong, but... Like I said, I think this has come up before, but it's been a while.

Edit: The fight with Yammar felt lost from the outset though, so if that's your issue...

 

[KnightDisciple]

So the Dandeer fail should not of worked at all is what I am reading since dandeer mind slave can kill her yeah sounds right like Yammer should not do area blast because you know he should be prevented from killing his master by the direct order she gave

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Yammar was willing to use area blasts because he was counting on Kakara being unwilling to let Dandeer die. Since, you know, Kakara repeatedly expressly said and did things to try and minimize the chances of Dandeeer dying without a trial.

 

[Kaizuki]

Entering the mind of a Mind magic specialist is not a wise thing to do. She probably has more mental defenses/wards than of any other kind

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Ah! But Dandeer is *stupid.* I'm actually increasingly thinking this is a good idea.

See, one thing stupid people are bad at is coming up with contingencies to inobvious issues. This results in statements like "We can win a trade war with China!" Sure, but you may encounter permanent trading shifts in the interim.

Dandeer has spent all this time focusing on people who can't do anything to her mind. Vegeta, Jaffur, etc -- all physical threats. She killed *all* the other sorcerers *years* ago.

I'm not suggesting we make it our first play. But, "get Maya and senzus out and then spirit transfer dandeer"."

 

[chryssalideater]

Thing is, we wouldn't have needed elaborate write-ins for this. There were multiple points we were given vote options for stuff that'd have given us an advantage in this. We passed over all of them.

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Talking about the lead up to the fight. I keep getting this feeling from the quests I'm participating that the rug that is game feel/mechanics keeps getting pulled out from under me.

 

[NavySeel]

I just had a thought.
We get off planet and find 17 and 18.

If they're any where their super levels of strength they should be more than enough to handle this.

 

[chryssalideater]

Yammar was willing to use area blasts because he was counting on Kakara being unwilling to let Dandeer die. Since, you know, Kakara repeatedly expressly said and did things to try and minimize the chances of Dandeeer dying without a trial.

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Then why did the flail work to begin with?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Then why did the flail work to begin with?

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Because you used it against Berra.

 

[chryssalideater]

I just had a thought.
We get off planet and find 17 and 18.

If they're any where their super levels of strength they should be more than enough to handle this.

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Oh don't worry, that's the immediate plan after ditching this place, it just be nice if we could take jaffur too.

 

[Gore17]

Yammar was willing to use area blasts because he was counting on Kakara being unwilling to let Dandeer die. Since, you know, Kakara repeatedly expressly said and did things to try and minimize the chances of Dandeeer dying without a trial.

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Which I actually pointed out when I argued against using Dandeer as a shield.

Ah! But Dandeer is *stupid.* I'm actually increasingly thinking this is a good idea.

See, one thing stupid people are bad at is coming up with contingencies to inobvious issues. This results in statements like "We can win a trade war with China!" Sure, but you may encounter permanent trading shifts in the interim.

Dandeer has spent all this time focusing on people who can't do anything to her mind. Vegeta, Jaffur, etc -- all physical threats. She killed *all* the other sorcerers *years* ago.

I'm not suggesting we make it our first play. But, "get Maya and senzus out and then spirit transfer dandeer"."

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Hmm, an interesting idea/possibility.

Talking about the lead up to the fight. I keep getting this feeling from the quests I'm participating that the rug that is game feel/mechanics keeps getting pulled out from under me.

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I'm talking about pre-fight stuff as well?

Then why did the flail work to begin with?

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Because it was against Berra?

Yammar =/= Berra.

 

[QTesseract]

I just had a thought.
We get off planet and find 17 and 18.

If they're any where their super levels of strength they should be more than enough to handle this.

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Buu can probably also snap Dandeer's magic like a twig, and can almost certainly see us. If we do go on an ghost adventure, that and SS2/3 are my goals.

 

[chryssalideater]

Because you used it against Berra.

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Then Yammar would have killed Dandeer?

 

[Conceptualist]

First of all: the point championed by @Simon_Jester, that I failed to break the update at the most appropriate time for a vote, despite my prior resolution to do so at that point. To be honest, I sympathize with this a great deal, because I did originally say that. I can understand why some people are angry, even if I don't appreciate how they express that. However, when it came down to it, I ran up against a reason why I couldn't break the update.
-snip-

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Okay. This makes sense. This kind of GM logic seems reasonable.

I, personally, would have not done as much as you did without player agency. I understand the idea of trap votes, why they are bad, and that you could not think of a way to go about this while keeping everything in character with the failed distraction.

If you had braked for a vote, I would have tried to get people to use our hostage as a hostage. Break some limbs, threaten kill her, have a breakdown because of it. If we passed a willpower roll to do so inspite of our Pacifist trait, managed to get the threat taken seriously, and planned to leave in the middle of negotiations after a solar flare and multiform, think we might have had a matmaticical possible chance to break away and successfully leave.

I doubt we would be able to pass the willpower check, I doubt the threat would be taken seriously, and I doubt that escaping successfully would have happened. But a plan made by players that failed would have been better taken by you playerbase than not breaking for voting and just letting things play out as you have.

But it wouldn't have been taken well. Maybe even taken worse. I don't know, it didn't happen that way.

People are hurt. You are angry that people think bad of you for us losing the fight. You need to consider that people, as hurt as they are, didn't know anything you haven't told them. All we had was speculation, and there was a long period of time to speculate in without a GM answering concerns.

With hurt players and a vanished GM, you will get a lot of baseless speculation. Since you left the thread to it's own devices, you reaped to crop you sowed. Please do not accuse your player base of being over the line when you refuse stay around and draw one.

 

[anailater]

Be salty all you want, just don't spread the salt around is the intent I believe.

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So if you dont like it just shut up?

 

[Bommelom]

And does every DB villain solely get explored through the lens of Goku? No. Kakara Hates Dandeer and had zero reason to try and engage with her. You can't blame us for playing the character.

Sure maybe we could have voted to try and engage her to get over that hate, but we had no incentive to bother to try. Not to mention she's basically a trap-master. Engaging with her would mean going to her, and that's just stupid. Even before we found out just how ridiculously good she is with magic with her massacre.

So... that's really not our fault. We played the character and this is how she saw Dandeer, so this is how we saw and will see Dandeer. And that was set in stone quite a while ago. You had a lot of time to change that if you had wanted to, but you didn't, so oh well. It just means we have an obstacle instead of a villain.

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This was mentioned a very long ago, but..

Poptart said it would have been possible to convince Dandeer to undo the sealing if we had not made her into an enemy. Having Kakara deem her irredeemable rather than mistaken and needing to be convinced of her mistakes was a choice we made (at least before we learned about the sorcerers, because that's definitely fucked up and far more sinister than anything else she has done).

During the Sealing, Dandeer viewed us as her savior and likely with a kind of religious awe. It was our actions that made her view us as an enemy, and if we had never antagonized her interacting with her would have been entirely safe because she would have no reason to try and subvert us (heck, even subverting Berra might have been a reaction to our antagonism if she was afraid we'd convince him the Sealing was unnecessary).

I mean, she didn't know Jaffur was sealed inside his own mind because that was never the intention. Had we had a decent relationship with her and told her that, that might have been enough to convince her to undo the Sealing.

If Poptart was asking people not to be salty at all after the update, uhh... Really he shouldn't have posted at all then. I don't know what he was expecting, but a few words like that at the end of the update isn't going to stop people when they're already upset. Maybe make them think through their words a little better or maybe even just make them angrier.

Expecting people to not be salty at all after that update just shows a distinct lack of awareness of his playerbase, request to be calm or not.

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Just because being getting salty is expected doesn't mean that it's a good idea or accomplishes anything.

 

[NavySeel]

Oh don't worry, that's the immediate plan after ditching this place, it just be nice if we could take jaffur too.

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Should probably grab the other misfits too, and maybe our siblings.

 

[Gore17]

Then Yammar would have killed Dandeer?

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He was willing to make that bet.

When Yammar is playing a game of Chicken, he goes all-in.

 

[Gore17]

So if you dont like it just shut up?

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Be polite, calm and pleasant. Don't go throwing around accusations. That's about it.