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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Non-Canon Omake: Jaffur Disabled Negaverse
  • Apocrypha
    • PoptartProdigy said:
    I specialize in such things. :evil:
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    @WafflyBrilliance's current user title is "Total Schemebag", by the way.
    Carrie_the_One said:
    WafflyBrilliance said:
    You twist, your Final Apocalypse slicing, seeking. Finally, it hits. Father is down.
    Willpower [Stay Awake]: 88 vs. 90

    And then your Kaio-Ken fades, and your consciousness fades with it. The last thing you see as you fall to the floor is Kakara, hand to her mouth and chewing.
    Once again, you're about to lose consciousness. What next?
    [ ] Switch to Jaron. Weak help is better than none.
    [ ] Dream a dream.
    -[ ] And stay here. You might get revived again, and Kakara probably can't beat Grandfather on her own.
    -[ ] Use Bailout first. Escaping is more important than possibly being revived right now.
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    Well, it looks like it's down to Kakara again. I'm not missing the dream bonus.
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    Titanrope said:
    Yeah, those have generally been pretty good for us, haven't they?

    EDIT: can someone tell me what Bailout was, again?
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    Bagelist said:
    It breaks the Seal on a chain of three random-walk Instant Transmissions. We'd still be asleep, but Waffles has told us our ki would be suppressed by unconsciousness.
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    Tombcat said:
    Bagelist said:
    We'd still be asleep, but Waffles has told us our ki would be suppressed by unconsciousness.
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    Uh, no they haven't. Hang on, let me find the quote.
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    RickTracy said:
    Here it is.
    WafflyBrilliance said:
    Power level is generally lower when you're asleep, but you have to be actively clamping down on it to fool a sensor ping.
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    Slaughtermoone said:
    So it could still work, but only if no one looks for us very hard. ...Get to omakes, everybody.
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    RickTracy said:
    Um, no, I think everyone wants to stay and be revived again. Kakara is a healer, right?
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    Slaughtermoone said:
    So help me if we Bad End because of your shipping I will cry at you.
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  • Apocrypha
    • PoptartProdigy said:
    Yes or no question: have you seen or read my statements on this topic?
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    No.

    I assume I made a faux pas and in which case I apologise, all I'll say in my defence was that I was not complaining about him doing it, just using it to illustrate what I thought was a point, based on the assumption he used intrigue not ki control in that roll. I was incorrect and was corrected swiftly by around three people.

    Though to reiterate: No I did not know there was any statement on the topic.

    Edit: and I'm waffling again.
     
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    The only statement I can remember is Poptart explaining what die rolls Lord Vegeta had to make to achieve the 'sniping' attack that took down Kakara. There were several Ki Control rolls involved, but Deceit was not required.

    We use Deceit in combat to fool an enemy as to our intentions. But for "stealth mode" and avoiding detection by concealing one's energy, or for launching an attack from stealth against an unaware opponent, Ki Control is more appropriate.

    It's sort of like how there's a difference between tricking an enemy who sees you into thinking you're something other than who and what you are, versus simply avoiding detection in the first place.
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    Fourthly, I would like to repeat that it should not be possible for a Seer operating from a distance to give Yammar useful tactical advice on how to fight us in real time. We could be wrong about this, but we have no reason to assume that we are wrong, and every reason to assume that we are not. Seer support is NOT required to explain how Yammar so easily bested us in hand-to-hand combat; that is perfectly well explained by Yammar being more skillful in hand to hand battle.
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    Y'know, the idea of active Seer support as the explanation has been niggling at me, and I finally realized why.

    it's because Taka is a significantly more experienced seer than Kakara and a very experienced fighter and while at a power level of 400m couldn't provide real time seer help to combatants he was on the same battlefield as, while they were individually 2b or less.

    In other words, less outclassed in power level than Carrick would be. I suppose it's possible he's that much better, but I doubt it.

    So. Yeah, personally I'm pretty damn confident a Seer can't give such aid at 'real time' levels for a Super Saiyan without being one.

    Note that Carrick would be in the same ballpark as Dandeer, and thus his advice would be real time from her perspective but far, far too slow from Yammar's.
     
    Terrabrand said:
    Y'know, the idea of active Seer support as the explanation has been niggling at me, and I finally realized why.

    it's because Taka is a significantly more experienced seer than Kakara and a very experienced fighter and while at a power level of 400m couldn't provide real time seer help to combatants he was on the same battlefield as, while they were individually 2b or less.

    In other words, less outclassed in power level than Carrick would be. I suppose it's possible he's that much better, but I doubt it.

    So. Yeah, personally I'm pretty damn confident a Seer can't give such aid at 'real time' levels for a Super Saiyan without being one.

    Note that Carrick would be in the same ballpark as Dandeer, and thus his advice would be real time from her perspective but far, far too slow from Yammar's.
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    Do Saiyans actually think faster when in SSJ, or are their reactions faster? Because that's relevant to whether visions could be helping Yammar. That said, at this point I'm inclined to agree that there's much less of a chance.
     
    chryssalideater said:
    Do Saiyans actually think faster when in SSJ, or are their reactions faster? Because that's relevant to whether visions could be helping Yammar. That said, at this point I'm inclined to agree that there's much less of a chance.
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    As far as I have ever understood, super saiyan is more or less mechanically identical to 'has a higher power level for non super saiyan reasons', and in turn higher power levels do make you think faster. We've taken advantage of that at times.
     
    Hm, so here are some of the actions I've seen discussed. I'd like to just list them; we can be restructured into multiline plans later (I expect to be away for hours).

    These are not PLANS, they are single actions, some of which may take place in rapid succession. Some of them would be spectacularly ill-advised to do first, such as 'go Spirit Saiyan' before taking steps to ensure we are secure in our own persons first.

    Then again, we may want to have some of these actions take place as a single update, then try others (e.g. eat a senzu bean and grab Dandeer in this update, then heal-beam Jaffur and attack Yammar while using Dandeer as a saiyan shield in the next)

    ...

    [] Eat a senzu bean

    [] Instant Transmit to Dandeer and grab her as a shield/hostage

    [] Attack Yammar while using Dandeer as a shield/flail
    (Risky, he's so much more skillful, and no less agile, than us, that he might be able to take Dandeer away from us without hurting her too badly)

    ...

    [] Telepathically scream at Yammar to jam his communications and MAYBE distract him
    (I don't like this option but feel obliged to include it for completeness)

    [] Telepathically transmit Dandelor's memories of Dandeer slaughtering the Vegetan sorcerors to Yammar to distract him and maybe force a Willpower check to break his mind control.

    ...

    [] Try to persuade Yammar to stop fighting via Communications check
    (I for one am curious as to what the hell he thinks he's doing under this mind control effect, if nothing else. We don't really know, and Yammar seems lucid enough to tell us)

    [] Try to persuade Yammar to stop fighting via Deceit check
    (may actually be our best chance of talking him down, due to Yammar having a +46 or greater Communications bonus, a Deceit malus although that may just partially cancel his existing bonuses, and his inability to receive any new orders from the unconscious Dandeer)

    ...

    [] Instant Transmit far, far away, to the other side of (Garenhuld/the sun)
    (Yammar may have trouble reaching us in deep space, then again he may not. Do we know if HE has Instant Transmission?)

    [] Go Spirit Saiyan

    ...

    [] Telekinetically feed a senzu bean to (Apra/Jaffur/Berra???)
    (note: I don't actually expect normal healing to WORK on Berra, we COULD try it)

    [] Fire a healing beam of ki at (Apra/Jaffur/Berra???)
    (note: see previous)

    ...

    There. Did I miss anything important?
     
    . . .

    How about we IT to the entrance while putting on our Saiyan Masque, fly over to Dandeer, and 'rescue her on her orders'? We can inform Yammar that Carrik Saw Kakara teleporting to the other side of the sun to charge Spirit Saiyan, and encourage him to exit the hall and prepare.

    That would (if successful) leave us the sole standing Saiyan in the Hall, and give us a chance to bean Jaffur, Apra, Dandelor, and the rest.

    It might buy us a full minute, which is like forever.
     
    Terrabrand said:
    So. Yeah, personally I'm pretty damn confident a Seer can't give such aid at 'real time' levels for a Super Saiyan without being one.

    Note that Carrick would be in the same ballpark as Dandeer, and thus his advice would be real time from her perspective but far, far too slow from Yammar's.
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    Sure, but the main thing I'm afraid of is that Seer support is going to prevent us from pulling any gambits (such as trying to grab Dandeer or turn Yammar into a Golden Oozaru), not help him beat us in combat.
     
    KaintukeeBob said:
    . . .

    How about we IT to the entrance while putting on our Saiyan Masque, fly over to Dandeer, and 'rescue her on her orders'? We can inform Yammar that Carrik Saw Kakara teleporting to the other side of the sun to charge Spirit Saiyan, and encourage him to exit the hall and prepare.

    That would (if successful) leave us the sole standing Saiyan in the Hall, and give us a chance to bean Jaffur, Apra, Dandelor, and the rest.

    It might buy us a full minute, which is like forever.
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    ...That sounds like a very creative way of getting us killed when Yammar notices were wearing a masque especially one were so unskilled in. Like if this was just a deceit check I'd support you but it isn't he'll probably get to roll sensing or something and easily be able to tell were wearing a masque.
     
    Sir LagsAlot said:
    ...That sounds like a very creative way of getting us killed when Yammar notices were wearing a masque especially one were so unskilled in. Like if this was just a deceit check I'd support you but it isn't he'll probably get to roll sensing or something and easily be able to tell were wearing a masque.
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    I honestly don't think he'd be able to tell. First, it isn't like Saiyan Masques are common. They aren't hard to create, but there's really no point (as was pointed out to us when we acquired one). They, like the Human Masque that is Jaron, have a slightly different ki feeling to their 'normal' form.

    We also know that something about the spell is giving a malus to the subjects' ability to think critically.

    I strongly believe that Yammar would not recognize the Masqued form as us, but he *might* have some way of verifying if we are really Dandeer's agent.

    Again, it's a high-risk, high-reward plan.

    @PoptartProdigy - Is there anything Kakara would see obviously wrong with the plan to disguise ourselves using our Saiyan Masque and deceive Yammar into thinking he needs to go elsewhere to find Kakara? Other than it being completely insane, of course.
     
    KaintukeeBob said:
    . . .

    How about we IT to the entrance while putting on our Saiyan Masque, fly over to Dandeer, and 'rescue her on her orders'? We can inform Yammar that Carrik Saw Kakara teleporting to the other side of the sun to charge Spirit Saiyan, and encourage him to exit the hall and prepare.

    That would (if successful) leave us the sole standing Saiyan in the Hall, and give us a chance to bean Jaffur, Apra, Dandelor, and the rest.

    It might buy us a full minute, which is like forever.
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    I am pretty sure you are joking but since people have run with ideas like this before, I think we should clarify that our saiyan mask would actually look the same as us unmasqued.
     
    Bakkasama said:
    I am pretty sure you are joking but since people have run with ideas like this before, I think we should clarify that our saiyan mask would actually look the same as us unmasqued.
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    I'm not joking. I went looking for an Oddball option, and it lead me here. If our Saiyan Masque does indeed look just like us, it's obviously not going to work. I did not think it looked just like us.
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    ...Honestly I kind of am? It might be best to send it to me on the side somehow, but I genuinely am curious.
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    Well, I'd want to see it too. So it should probably be a Sidestory.
    Simon_Jester said:
    [] Telepathically transmit Dandelor's memories of Dandeer slaughtering the Vegetan sorcerors to Yammar to distract him and maybe force a Willpower check to break his mind control.
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    I'd prefer to confront him with the question. Words are much harder to dismiss as a mental attack than telepathic imagery.
    Aranfan said:
    [] Instant Transmission to the other side of the planet
    -[] Go Spirit Saiyan
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    I'd prefer the Sun. The planet feels too obvious, and it's also squishy.
     
    Aranfan said:
    Going to vote for:

    [] Instant Transmission to the other side of the planet
    -[] Go Spirit Saiyan
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    ...I mean you don't even want to try and grab Dandeer as a hostage first so that when we hop to the other side of the sun we force Yammar to most likely scan for and then chase us? If we do it this way it'll probably prevent him from grabbing hostages or reviving his allies.
     
    chryssalideater said:
    I don't want Dandeer awake until this whole fight is over. Leaving Yammar and Dandeer together unsupervised is a losing condition.
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    Except that for Yammar, leaving us unsupervised is a losing condition. Like. We went from losing, quite frankly, against Dazarel to so far above him we could dispose of him at our leisure. Dandeer and Yammar are not gonna be able to contest even, say, a quarter of that power, at all.

    If we start charging, they're on the clock to respond.
     
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