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I mean, frankly, if we can get enough of a spirit Saiyan boost both allies and hostages seem a fairly sizable non-issue?
...Good point just IT to the other side of the sun go spirit saiyan IT back and then speed blitz him although magic might be able to mess us up it still has a good chance of working.

I'd still prefer to mitigate the chance of anything interfering though by grabbing Dandeer and then use IT to get to the other side of the sun and charge spirit saiyan.
 
Except that for Yammar, leaving us unsupervised is a losing condition. Like. We went from losing, quite frankly, against Dazarel to so far above him we could dispose of him at our leisure. Dandeer and Yammar are not gonna be able to contest even, say, a quarter of that power, at all.

If we start charging, they're on the clock to respond.
It takes him maybe 5 seconds to senzu the person who can cast mind control. That's not something that can be allowed when all of our allies are unconscious.
 
It takes him maybe 5 seconds to senzu the person who can cast mind control. That's not something that can be allowed when all of our allies are unconscious.
all our allies put together cannot contest even a relatively low fraction of Spirit Saiyan.

if we come rocketing in at 100b+ type range, we can put all of them down in one go. Including Dandeer and all the super saiyans. At no risk.

like. Spirit Saiyan is monstrously unfair. It's exactly the kind of thing the Dandeer Negaverse would be complaining about harder than this thread complained about the mind control.
 
all our allies put together cannot contest even a relatively low fraction of Spirit Saiyan.

if we come rocketing in at 100b+ type range, we can put all of them down in one go. Including Dandeer and all the super saiyans. At no risk.

like. Spirit Saiyan is monstrously unfair. It's exactly the kind of thing the Dandeer Negaverse would be complaining about harder than this thread complained about the mind control.
Plus Dandeer probably won't be able to set anything to complicated up in five minutes so society probably won't be subjected to another mass mind wipe although again I don't like the risk and we have a pretty good chance of being able to IT over to Dandeer and then IT with her over to the other side of the sun.
 
Plus Dandeer probably won't be able to set anything to complicated up in five minutes so society probably won't be subjected to another mass mind wipe although again I don't like the risk and we have a pretty good chance of being able to IT over to Dandeer and then IT with her over to the other side of the sun.
While I'd admit 5 minutes is unlikely, it's been very strongly hinted at from Dandeer's actions and the Negaverse omakes that she has some ace-in-the-hole type spell. What it does or how it works, I don't know, but dandeer quest apparently decided it was more useful spending 10 years prepping it instead of another mass memory-wipe spell. I really don't want Dandeer up, it's the definition of asking for trouble.
 
@PoptartProdigy - Is there anything Kakara would see obviously wrong with the plan to disguise ourselves using our Saiyan Masque and deceive Yammar into thinking he needs to go elsewhere to find Kakara? Other than it being completely insane, of course.
Your saiyan Masque looks pretty similar to base you, for one thing, but he's never seen it, so maybe he'll conclude that it's some other saiyan.
@PoptartProdigy Shouldn't our Saiyan Masque be higher than Incompetent now, since we did all of last year's training in it where possible?
I think that's up from Poor, actually. Feel free to prove me wrong, though, I easily could be.
 
While I'd admit 5 minutes is unlikely, it's been very strongly hinted at from Dandeer's actions and the Negaverse omakes that she has some ace-in-the-hole type spell. What it does or how it works, I don't know, but dandeer quest apparently decided it was more useful spending 10 years prepping it instead of another mass memory-wipe spell. I really don't want Dandeer up, it's the definition of asking for trouble.
Exactly why I want to grab her before we IT out of there and try to charge up spirit saiyan.
 
I think that's up from Poor, actually. Feel free to prove me wrong, though, I easily could be.
I don't think I can, without the old version to compare it to, but I know that the 10% PL number has definitely not changed.

I'd also be surprised if it only went up that far from training all year in it, given the dividends we got for training non-ki martial arts in our human masque.
 
...OK so here's a thought. IT to the sun with Dandeer, wait for Yammar to follow, just as he's about to catch up to us, TP Back, feed senzu's to allies, and THEN charge spirit saiyan. It's really dumb, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.
 
I don't think I can, without the old version to compare it to, but I know that the 10% PL number has definitely not changed.

I'd also be surprised if it only went up that far from training all year in it, given the dividends we got for training non-ki martial arts in our human masque.
Hm, you're probably right, then.

*checks* Oh wow, got my skills mixed up. Incompetent is lower than Poor. Duh. Yeah, you're definitely right.

That said, I'm only raising it to, "Unpromising." There are various reasons it's rising slower than human Masque Affinity.
 
Hm, you're probably right, then.

*checks* Oh wow, got my skills mixed up. Incompetent is lower than Poor. Duh. Yeah, you're definitely right.

That said, I'm only raising it to, "Unpromising." There are various reasons it's rising slower than human Masque Affinity.
Actually, wait again (new post because people have already rated the old one). It's raising to Poor, not Unpromising. Brain farted there (can you tell I donated plasma again today?). You now transform over 30 seconds, to 20% of your power level, and retain transformations.
 
Actually, wait again (new post because people have already rated the old one). It's raising to Poor, not Unpromising. Brain farted there (can you tell I donated plasma again today?). You now transform over 30 seconds, to 20% of your power level, and retain transformations.
Dang, that's really slow.

There are various reasons it's rising slower than human Masque Affinity.
Hmmmm.

What if we went and got someone to beat the crap out of us, so we could see how large of an effect the Zenkai has? It might be rising more slowly because Saiyans are geared up to get their big PL increases from Zenkais, at the expense of other methods.

Or maybe our training methods are just less effective because they're designed for hybrid physiologies, and are especially derived from human methods?

It would be nice if we could just sit down and have a few updates where we can test all our wacky theories over the course of a week or two.
 
Hm. I've been kinda loopy today and there are a lot of posts. I'm sure I've missed things.

Anybody have anything they've said that I overlooked?
Hmmmm.

What if we went and got someone to beat the crap out of us, so we could see how large of an effect the Zenkai has? It might be rising more slowly because Saiyans are geared up to get their big PL increases from Zenkais, at the expense of other methods.

Or maybe our training methods are just less effective because they're designed for hybrid physiologies, and are especially derived from human methods?

It would be nice if we could just sit down and have a few updates where we can test all our wacky theories over the course of a week or two.
You may always try. And crazy testing week is an idea I've had.
By conscious, do you mean on their feet, or face up almost unable to move?
For better IC diagnoses, level up the Medicine skill.
 
...OK so here's a thought. IT to the sun with Dandeer, wait for Yammar to follow, just as he's about to catch up to us, TP Back, feed senzu's to allies, and THEN charge spirit saiyan. It's really dumb, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.
...Why not just charge spirit saiyan well waiting for Yammar? After he arrives we crush him and then IT back with his unconscious body if he can even find and follow us.
 
So, for those worried about Yammar receiving Seer support, would now be a bad time to point out that the best way to interfere with a Seers prediction is with the Sight?

And oh look, a Vision.
 
@PoptartProdigy I remember we never actually thought of a real mechanical use for the Saiyan Masque, beyond the possible utility of having a face no one recognises. I do vaguely recall you maybe having an idea or two we hadn't thought of though. My question is this: rather than taking the pure Saiyan mindset/physiology and trying to find ways to use it, is it possible that we were missing the forest for the trees, and that a better understanding of the Saiyan mindset/physiology is it's own reward? Like, does Kakara think that understanding how pureblooded Saiyans think and how their bodies function might be useful both for its' own sake, and to apply that understanding of them to other things, rather than trying to make direct use of mindset/physiology themselves?

...Why not just charge spirit saiyan well waiting for Yammar? After he arrives we crush him and then IT back with his unconscious body if he can even find and follow us.
Spirit Saiyan takes much longer to charge than feeding Senzu beans - or at least, the PL advantage we'd accrue in the same amount of time is a much smaller advantage than getting Jaffur back on his feet would be.
 
Spirit Saiyan takes much longer to charge than feeding Senzu beans - or at least, the PL advantage we'd accrue in the same amount of time is a much smaller advantage than getting Jaffur back on his feet would be.
The thing is though charging up spirit saiyan is much less of a risk then trying to feed Jaffur senzu beans as long as Yammar doesn't have IT and even if he does it'll take him a while to find us so that he can IT to our location if were on the other side of the sun meaning were at a lower risk of losing if we charge spirit saiyan compared to trying to get our allies back into the fight with senzu beans.

Also time is largely a neutral factor at this point in the fight it favors neither side really so we have no real reason to be worried about how long it takes for us to perform certain actions as long as we can get our hands on Dandeer again at least.

Ya, know if we followed my plan:

[ ] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
- [ ] Telepathicly transmit the memories of Dandeer's slaughter of the Vegetan sorceres to Yammar.
- [ ] IT over to Dandeer and use her as a shield/flail.

We'd be in a pretty good position next turn to heal beam our allies real quick pop the senzu bean in our mouth and then IT to the other side of the sun hopefully forcing Yammar to chase after us leaving our allies to recover using senzu beans and us about as free as we can get to charge spirit saiyan.
 
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@PoptartProdigy I remember we never actually thought of a real mechanical use for the Saiyan Masque, beyond the possible utility of having a face no one recognises. I do vaguely recall you maybe having an idea or two we hadn't thought of though. My question is this: rather than taking the pure Saiyan mindset/physiology and trying to find ways to use it, is it possible that we were missing the forest for the trees, and that a better understanding of the Saiyan mindset/physiology is it's own reward? Like, does Kakara think that understanding how pureblooded Saiyans think and how their bodies function might be useful both for its' own sake, and to apply that understanding of them to other things, rather than trying to make direct use of mindset/physiology themselves?
There are no remaining, "pure," saiyans, so Kakara struggles to find an application.
 
The thing is though charging up spirit saiyan is much less of a risk then trying to feed Jaffur senzu beans as long as Yammar doesn't have IT and even if he does it'll take him a while to find us so that he can IT to our location if were on the other side of the sun meaning were at a lower risk of losing if we charge spirit saiyan compared to trying to get our allies back into the fight with senzu beans.

Also time is largely a neutral factor at this point in the fight it favors neither side really so we have no real reason to be worried about how long it takes for us to perform certain actions as long as we can get our hands on Dandeer again at least.

Ya, know if we followed my plan:

[ ] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
- [ ] Telepathicly transmit the memories of Dandeer's slaughter of the Vegetan sorceres to Yammar.
- [ ] IT over to Dandeer and use her as a shield/flail.

We'd be in a pretty good position next turn to heal beam our allies real quick pop the senzu bean in our mouth and then IT to the other side of the sun hopefully forcing Yammar to chase after us leaving our allies to recover using senzu beans and us about as free as we can get to charge spirit saiyan.
Well Spirit Saiyan requires us to gather a Genki Dama and then absorb it, so it's not really something you can safely perform when under threat.

I agree time isn't against us in terms of dragging out the fight, but it is against us in terms of "things we can do without Yammar stopping us".

I think we can IT to Dandeer without using the memory safely, and should hold it for immediately after - we have Dandeer, and send the memory to Yammar so we can have a few seconds free to bean our allies.

That idea about using the Spirit Saiyan as bait to draw him away from our recovering allies is my favourite plan B so far though, by a long way. If we didn't have the memory it would probably be my top pick.

There are no remaining, "pure," saiyans, so Kakara struggles to find an application.
We do get some things purely from our Saiyan heritage though - the Zenkai, the various SSJ forms, the Oozaru and the PL caps. I confess I'm not sure how to use them to improve each though - maybe it'll make unlocking new transformations a little easier, given the psychological aspect of many of them? Maybe it'll improve our Zenkai? (Though that would still be somewhat irrelevant, given our PL cap...)

But fair enough if she doesn't think it would really help with any of them.
 
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@PoptartProdigy iirc, the reason there is a delay between wantimg to use IT and performing it is s matter of both reorienting yourself and the necessary calculations for it. If we wanted to perform two consecutive jumps and we knew where we wanted to go with both, could we cut down the delay for the second jump by performing the calculations for it before the first jump? Basically, take more time for the first jump so that we also do the math to perform the second and can make the jump faster.
 
Well Spirit Saiyan requires us to gather a Genki Dama and then absorb it, so it's not really something you can safely perform when under threat.

I agree time isn't against us in terms of dragging out the fight, but it is against us in terms of "things we can do without Yammar stopping us".

I think we can IT to Dandeer without using the memory safely, and should hold it for immediately after - we have Dandeer, and send the memory to Yammar so we can have a few seconds free to bean our allies.

That idea about using the Spirit Saiyan as bait to draw him away from our recovering allies is my favourite plan B so far though, by a long way. If we didn't have the memory it would probably be my top pick.
That's the thing though if we IT to the other side of the sun with Dandeer even if Yammar also has IT we'll probably have more then enough time to charge up spirit saiyan simply because it won't be the first place he'll scan even if he can scan that far out.

Yammar has to be able to find and get to us in order to stop us both of which will be far more difficult on the other side of the sun especially if he doesn't know IT since Poptart said it would take him at minimum a minute to exit the hall among other delays like scanning the entire planet.

We can probably IT to Dandeer without using the memory safely but only if the Yammar doesn't get a warning about our gambit from a seer which is the main reason I want to attempt to disorient him now so that he can't act on any warnings he gets during the most vulnerable part of our plan.

Honestly I'm skeptical the delay the memory will cause will be long enough for us to feed a bean to one of our allies since it's already been shown once before to take a non-insignificant amount of time I think it's just an overall safer option to get Yammar out of the hall well our allies heal themselves.
 
That's the thing though if we IT to the other side of the sun with Dandeer even if Yammar also has IT we'll probably have more then enough time to charge up spirit saiyan simply because it won't be the first place he'll scan even if he can scan that far out.

That is contingent on the assumption that IT is impossible to trace - do we know if that's accurate? Otherwise, since Yammar will at minimum be actively monitoring our ki signature, he would almost certainly just follow whatever trail it left immediately.
 
We do get some things purely from our Saiyan heritage though - the Zenkai, the various SSJ forms, the Oozaru and the PL caps. I confess I'm not sure how to use them to improve each though - maybe it'll make unlocking new transformations a little easier, given the psychological aspect of many of them? Maybe it'll improve our Zenkai? (Though that would still be somewhat irrelevant, given our PL cap...)

But fair enough if she doesn't think it would really help with any of them.
Oh, that's what you meant. I thought you were talking about understanding pure-blooded saiyans as people, which...yeah.

What you list are potential applications, but you need research to confirm or deny that they'll work.
Ooh, that's not healthy. I understand the reasons to do it, but you're literally giving up parts of your immune system. Please be careful.
It's perfectly safe if you manage your diet and sleep; they don't take lots. The amount they filter out isn't enough for serious impacts, and it recovers in two days. It's just a stressful experience for me, and somewhat...draining. :D
I wanted to know what bonus I earned from my Jaffur Negaverse posts.
Point me? I remember the one got a bonus; you've posted more?
@PoptartProdigy iirc, the reason there is a delay between wantimg to use IT and performing it is s matter of both reorienting yourself and the necessary calculations for it. If we wanted to perform two consecutive jumps and we knew where we wanted to go with both, could we cut down the delay for the second jump by performing the calculations for it before the first jump? Basically, take more time for the first jump so that we also do the math to perform the second and can make the jump faster.
You can't eliminate the delay between jumps entirely, because you need a very solid sense of space which the jump disrupts, but you can cut down on some of it if you do the math manually, yeah.
 
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