Voting is open
Very few people are voting for the verbal apology, and I think it's because it's a headache to vote for - the options are nearly identical, and it was proposed as a write-in, so we can't easily copypaste your post.
Well, there's nothing stopping people from copy-pasting things in quote boxes. That said, I see the point. Unfortunately, it's a little late to change it without confusing people, and it's not big enough to warrant a wipe and restart of the vote.
She only has to hold out for a bit, and presumably has Senzu beans too. @PoptartProdigy would using Overcharge break the wards, or does it leave your signature the same as it already was? Because if she has Senzu beans to recover with, she really ought to be using Overcharge.

EDIT: To be clear, she really ought to be using Overcharge now that taking Yammar out/holding him off at the cost of exhausting herself is tactically correct. Her not doing so before when the rest of the fight was less in our favour also made sense.
For whatever reason, she has not yet done it, but you're welcome to micro her and advance the suggestion.
 
Also,

Lady Kakara: "As my first Official Decree as Lady Goku, I am setting forth a requirement that all future Scions must train their tail before taking their future Title. Doing so will steel your soul against pain like nothing else, and it at least puts a glass covering over the Instant Defeat Button all Saiyans are equipped with."
Dude. That is barbaric, tail training is basically torture.
 
Lady Kakara: "As my first Official Decree as Lady Goku, I am setting forth a requirement that all future Scions must train their tail before taking their future Title. Doing so will steel your soul against pain like nothing else, and it at least puts a glass covering over the Instant Defeat Button all Saiyans are equipped with."
Specify that no one else can do it for you not even the Lord. Every scion musr advance under their own will.

also holy shit someone elae doing it to you will give long term scars even if both parties are willing.​
 
Dude. That is barbaric, tail training is basically torture.

There is something to be said for having our most elite fighters being both immune to the most crippling combat weakness of the Saiyan body and possessing a strong enough pain tolerance and general willpower to continue fighting regardless. It's not entirely unreasonable of a training regime for The Best Of The Best. And point of clarification, this ain't happening as a child.

Also, I'm slightly amused by the thought of Kakara having standards beyond what most Saiyans find sane because of who she is. Like that whole "Calculus isn't that hard!" thing. But now it is a "I did this to myself in secret in a year without prompting when I was eight because I wanted to, get on my level scrubs" thing.
 
Vegeta and Nappa trained theirs, and Raditz skipped his training. Think of how devastating it would have been if he hadn't?
 
Dude. That is barbaric, tail training is basically torture.
I mean lords and scions are raised from birth to be the most deadly thing on the planet and granted supreme political power because of it.

The system is barbaric in a very literal sense.
There is something to be said for having our most elite fighters being both immune to the most crippling combat weakness of the Saiyan body and possessing a strong enough pain tolerance and general willpower to continue fighting regardless. It's not entirely unreasonable of a training regime for The Best Of The Best. And point of clarification, this ain't happening as a child.

Also, I'm slightly amused by the thought of Kakara having standards beyond what most Saiyans find sane because of who she is. Like that whole "Calculus isn't that hard!" thing. But now it is a "I did this to myself in secret in a year without prompting when I was eight because I wanted to, get on my level scrubs" thing.
That's a massive oversimplification she did it because her own father grabbed her tail to stop her from interfering in an act that offended her morality on every level.
 
I mean lords and scions are raised from birth to be the most deadly thing on the planet and granted supreme political power because of it.

The system is barbaric in a very literal sense.

That's a massive oversimplification she did it because her own father grabbed her tail to stop her from interfering in an act that offended her morality on every level.

I severely downplayed the severity of why she forced herself to do it for comedic effect, I do get it. And yeah, Kakara did it after seeing her father totally disabled. Berra grabbed it by accident afterwards and she was already trained out of it.
 
[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Vegeta is getting back into base form, which puts him back in the fight. Wielding Dandeer against him like you did to Dad should work just as well, and you can't leave him unaddressed.
 
Last edited:

You manage to disguise yourself raising your other hand by scratching at your hair, and only raise your hands to your forehead at the last second. "Taiyoken!"

"AARGH!"

As the strobe of golden light goes off and blinds your parents, Jaffur lunges up, apparently conscious after all, transforms, and seizes your Dad's tail. Dad stiffens and falls to the ground, his strength gone, and Jaffur lunges out, reaching towards you. You reach out, and the instant your fingers touch-

When we evacced Jaffur in the prologue.

Kakara had been avoiding Berra, that much was certain, he understood it, to some degree, she didn't know what had happened, and he could see where she took anger, but...
But something had been getting worse, she was more tired, less talkative, more... Angry, it was frightening, seeing someone so young growing up like that, he was scared for his daughter just as much as she seemed to shun him at every opportunity, she was still a child and he knew that Kakara was a very driven girl, once she set her mind on something she'd almost never give up on it, even to the point of insanity, he missed her oddball behavior and boundless energy, so after much deliberation, he decided to meet with her, face-to-face.
The next day, he found her at the training arena, grimly firing blasts at the wall, she glanced over at her father on his entrance, of course she noticed him, she was always a prodigy at sensing energies, clearing his throat, he faced her, "Kakara."
"Dad."
"Kakara, I-I need to speak to you, can you please come down?"
The blasts of energy slow, and eventually stop altogether as she lowers herself down to the ground, facing her father dead on, nearly silent.
"Kakara, I can't say I'm sorry for what I did, but I can't let this keep going on, you're distancing yourself so much, and..."
Berra looked even older now, like his life was leaving him as he spoke.
"And I don't want to lose you like this."
Kakara just sighed, turning around and beginning to float upwards, "I don't expect you to apologise."
"Then what do you want, Kakara? You're so distant and tired and-and sad, why do you need to do this?"
Kakara whirls on her father, she doesn't even start yelling, just speaking in a deathly calm voice that very nearly unnerves Berra, "Why don't I need to do this? I can't let this go, I... I..."
She spins around again, shoulders shaking, "I need to get better, I'm just going to be doing this for a while longer."
"Kakara-"
"Please, just-"
She hisses in pain as a jolt of agony goes through her, she turns her head to see Berra, eyes widened, he hadn't meant to grab on to her tail, but in desperation, trying to keep her with him, he had clasped on to it.
But it wasn't just his accidental grab that had him staring, he saw her still standing, teeth clenched and hands tightly closed, certainly, but without falling, she had endured that pain.
"Kakara..."
"Please leave, dad."
She batted away his limp hand and floated back up, where she resumed blasting the far wall, Berra seemed to try and reach out to her, before his hand dropped to his side again, and walked away.

From the first Canon omake.
 
Considering that it could happen in a context in which she is not being overthrown I doubt she would do so. Having such contungency makes it liable for it to be activated under a false alarm.

Now, if it were in case of her DEATH that would be more likely since she wouldn't care what happens afterwards but a contingency for when she is knocked unconscious is too general for it to be a good one.
That's a fair point.

[snip things re the "I'm sorry" option]
I, um... well, I'd LIKE to think it's the kind of thing Kakara would do anyway, honestly. If it's NOT, we really need to start working on that Compassionate trait, and for that matter may need to rebuild it from scratch. :(

I think this is a bit like the situation over in Terminus Quest where the decision to launch the expedition wound up getting entangled with the Ministry of Science prioritization in ways you didn't originally intend, and which made it hard to tell just from looking at the prioritization whether people really wanted the expedition or not.

Kinda think Jaffur is a bad person to be fighting Vegeta, right after he just got ganked because he wanted to kill Dandeer but remembered he shouldn't, but this should do.
Odds are good that Jaffur won't be able to beat down Lord Vegeta entirely faster than we can disable Yammar and Lord Vegeta with Dandeer as a hostage-onna-rope and with Dandelor counterspelling the mind control.

I mean yes, Jaffur is probably pretty well specced to defeat Lord Vegeta, but it's still likely to take a few rounds.

Also, let's not violate OPSEC before Dandeer is down.
The thing is, saying "I'm sorry" doesn't communicate anything Berra can act on without him making several unsupported deductive leaps- it may not even be possible for him to act on those deductions because we're explicitly using Dandeer as a human shield to block him away from simply blasting the Senzus.

Also, I'd like Berra to wake up from this remembering that his daughter said "I'm sorry" just before the horrible pain started. I want him to know that Kakara still cares about him and hates doing this to him, because I want them to be able to rebuild a strong positive relationship in the future.

I don't consider the desire to maintain operational security in this case important ENOUGH to justify causing a loving father to suffer agony at the word of his daughter without knowing his daughter regrets it.

If Dandeer doesn't have a deadmans switch we are teasing death here.
Dandeer probably doesn't have any world-ending disastrous switches that blow up if she merely falls unconscious, but her death might very well have very bad effects.

If we didn't have a specific tactical use for Dandeer alive and as a saiyan shield, I'd say we should drop her off with the Senzus, possibly conscious and possibly unconscious. And then Dandelor, as soon as the mind control on the super-saiyans is broken (maybe sooner) starts going over her like a bomb disposal technician, trying to disconnect any really nasty spells she has up.

Lady Kakara: "As my first Official Decree as Lady Goku, I am setting forth a requirement that all future Scions must train their tail before taking their future Title. Doing so will steel your soul against pain like nothing else, and it at least puts a glass covering over the Instant Defeat Button all Saiyans are equipped with."
I honestly think that requiring your child to undergo tail training would qualify as child abuse, so I for one would vote against that.

He didn't grab her tail that I recall. We did it because Jaffur grabbed Berra's and he went down.
Berra didn't need to grab anyone's tails. He had a 5.5-to-1 power level advantage over us, roughly; he just immobilized both of us with brute force telekinesis, the same way we did to Dazarel when Spirit Saiyan went up.
 
Last edited:
You know seeing how effective it has been I am sort of surprised no one has tried the power ball trick for taking down a super saiyan before. Then again if a non super saiyan tried it the super saiyan would see it coming a mile away and blink or disable the person trying it.

During the Lord Oni fight is the only big fight vs a super saiyan I am seeing in history and that would have cause huge trouble for both sides.
 
Alright, I'll try one more time, to get people to vote for taking out Vegeta:

We have been told that, at the very least, we would have a massive advantage in working to take out Vegeta as of right now, made larger by our Dandeer-bludgeon.

Once we do, we will have reduced the active combatants down to three: Kakara, Apra, and Yammar. If Apra lasts through this round of combat then, at worst, Kakara will have the option to bring Jaffur back up next round just as she did this one.

If Apra does not, then Kakara will be able to engage in her place, and pull another power ball to disable him for long enough for Dandelor to do so, and the Senzu may have the opportunity to revive Jaffur themselves -- though it likely would be unnecessary at that point.
 
Alright, I'll try one more time, to get people to vote for taking out Vegeta:

We have been told that, at the very least, we would have a massive advantage in working to take out Vegeta as of right now, made larger by our Dandeer-bludgeon.

Once we do, we will have reduced the active combatants down to three: Kakara, Apra, and Yammar. If Apra lasts through this round of combat then, at worst, Kakara will have the option to bring Jaffur back up next round just as she did this one.

If Apra does not, then Kakara will be able to engage in her place, and pull another power ball to disable him for long enough for Dandelor to do so, and the Senzu may have the opportunity to revive Jaffur themselves -- though it likely would be unnecessary at that point.
Very good arguments. I am on your side. Not sure why people are voting against it. Honestly I sort of like the idea of waking up Jaffur and telling him that we took out both Barra and Vegeta without him.
 
The thing is, saying "I'm sorry" doesn't communicate anything Berra can act on without him making several unsupported deductive leaps- it may not even be possible for him to act on those deductions because we're explicitly using Dandeer as a human shield to block him away from simply blasting the Senzus.

Also, I'd like Berra to wake up from this remembering that his daughter said "I'm sorry" just before the horrible pain started. I want him to know that Kakara still cares about him and hates doing this to him, because I want them to be able to rebuild a strong positive relationship in the future.
First:

My objection to that, at least, is in the way the vote is formatted. Saying "I'm sorry" to Berra -- sure, fine, whatever. But including it in the same quote as telling Dandelor to do it implies that you're saying it aloud, unlike the rest of Kakara's communication to him, which puts him at risk. Remember, he's not a saiyan -- even in Golden Monkey form, it's possible Berra could fire off a ki blast at him in the time between saying that and Dandelor doing something about it.

Second:

Do you really think so little of Berra that he would bear ill feelings toward his daughter for doing what was necessary in a really fucked up battle?

My model of him comforts Kakara for having to do this to him.
 
Kakara does not like fighting, but she is much more willing to fight dirty then most Saiyans. As far as she concerned all fights are dirty and not really something to be glorified just something that might be nessarly sometimes.

I can't really imagine any other saiyan in this story or canon using the tactics we have used in this fight.
 
Last edited:
Very good arguments. I am on your side. Not sure why people are voting against it. Honestly I sort of like the idea of waking up Jaffur and telling him that we took out both Barra and Vegeta without him.
Right. Well, here's my counterargument:
Jaffur is already obsessed with Kakara. He admires her, and he likes how she's helped him break out.
But the way she's done that, so far, has been to make him stronger. She hasn't seriously overshadowed him until now. He hasn't had time or reasoning to project his feelings of helplessness on her.
If, on the other hand, she wins his first fight since the Sealing - one he has an enormous amount of stake in - and he doesn't significantly help? That's going to be really bad for him, and it's going to sour their relationship. Don't do that, and especially don't have Kakara grind it in if it does happen.
 
Last edited:
If, on the other hand, she wins his first fight since the Sealing - one he has an enormous amount of stake in - and he doesn't significantly help? That's going to be really bad for him, and it's going to sour their relationship. Don't do that, and especially don't have Kakara grind it in if it does happen.
We won't grind it in. Our communication is godlike and we understand how Jaffur thinks.
 
We won't grind it in. Our communication is godlike and we understand how Jaffur thinks.
This. Also, I'm... not sure why we would allow our decision on something that could have a massive impact on our immediate future -- or lack thereof -- to be swayed by Jaffur throwing a tantrum after this was all over.

One thing at a time, and winning this fight fast and hard is way more important to me than Jaffur's mindstate. I fully intend for Kakara to spend time with him after this is all done to help socialize him.
 
This. Also, I'm... not sure why we would allow our decision on something that could have a massive impact on our immediate future -- or lack thereof -- to be swayed by Jaffur throwing a tantrum after this was all over.
I think our victory is pretty probable, and so our current goal is to minimize risks and losses. Minimizing psychological damage is a major part of that.
 
Alright, I'll try one more time, to get people to vote for taking out Vegeta:

We have been told that, at the very least, we would have a massive advantage in working to take out Vegeta as of right now, made larger by our Dandeer-bludgeon.

Once we do, we will have reduced the active combatants down to three: Kakara, Apra, and Yammar. If Apra lasts through this round of combat then, at worst, Kakara will have the option to bring Jaffur back up next round just as she did this one.

If Apra does not, then Kakara will be able to engage in her place, and pull another power ball to disable him for long enough for Dandelor to do so, and the Senzu may have the opportunity to revive Jaffur themselves -- though it likely would be unnecessary at that point.
i was already REALLY uncertain between going against Vegeta or healing Jaffur.

You changed my mind.

[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Vegeta is getting back into base form, which puts him back in the fight. Wielding Dandeer against him like you did to Dad should work just as well, and you can't leave him unaddressed.

Kakara does not like fighting, but she is much more willing to fight dirty then most Saiyans. As far as she concerned all fights are dirty and not really something to be glorified just something that might be nessarly sometimes.
unless it's a spar. In that case it's sport, and rules are necessary there.
I can't really imagine any other saiyan in this story or canon using the tactics we have used in this fight.
Future Trunks might have been the only one to even consider our tactics...if he was capable of thinking them.

He was not really concerned about fair fighting, though even HE was pretty stupid. I mean, why didn't he destroy Gero's lab on his first trip BEFORE going against Frieza? Then he could have simply stayed with them to train for a few years, and only go "back to the futuretm​" with them by his side once he felt they were strong enough. It would have been the logical thing to do.
 
I think our victory is pretty probable, and so our current goal is to minimize risks and losses. Minimizing psychological damage is a major part of that.
And taking that mindset actively reduces our chances at victory. For simplicity's sake, let's say it reduces our chances from 100% to 95%:

That's one in twenty universes where we lose. One in twenty universes where, likely, the Senzu are tried for treason under Dandeer's court. Is it worth that to you?
 
Voting is open
Back
Top