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Dragon Ball: After the End

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[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Vegeta is getting back into base form, which puts him back in the fight. Wielding Dandeer against him like you did to Dad should work just as well, and you can't leave him unaddressed.

[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long.
 
[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will getthe showdown for which it's been waiting so long.

Slightly worried that we put Dandeer too close to Jaffur and fumble a roll.
Or that Vegeta gets back in the fight too quick for us to get Jaffur up (we still have to deal with Berra for a moment and confirm he's out of action).
Or if Vegeta (or Yammar) attack the Senzu first.
Still definitely feel this is not only our best shot, but potentially the most narratively satisfying and possibly somewhat better for Jaffur's long-term mental health.
 
[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long. ​
 
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[x] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[x] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long.


...Yeah, sorry, Dad. He's not going to be happy. I expect a semi-permanent rift. But right now this looks like the best we can accomplish. We need to wrap things up, and I think both for me and for in-character it makes a lot of sense to put "many subjects' lives" over "one person's pain".
 
Bommelom said:
Also, what really seems to have turned the fight in our favor is the monkey ball, which ended up crippling Berra's speed and distracting Vegeta, so I should probably be less afraid of Oddball plans next time, guh.
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it's our trait, and this proves it's good to use.

Of course we shouldn't do things "the odd way" just because, but our trait makes unorthodox (and effective) choices even better than normal. And really, Kakara is the weakest of all the current super saiyan in a direct "no tricks" 1v1 battle.
Our strenghts are in diplomacy, unorthodox tactics and strategy, multitasking and the spirit saiyan.

And really, While these Sayans are not as bad as the "Old" saiyan, they still tend to default to "Violence: If it's not solving all your problems, you simply aren't using enough of it"

Of course i think nobody disagrees that, in hindsight, the best option would have been to come with the spirit saiyan ready, maybe stopping Dandeer FIRST and only AFTER explaining things to Berra, while he could do nothing to ruin things. Or even preparing it AFTER explaining to Berra (if stopping him without alerting anyone to his SUPER SAIYAN RAGE was even possible)

Okibruez said:
No more spells, please. I don't care if we end up in a shitty brawl, but letting her happily sit around slinging magic is a bad plan, and she will break free of the tail hold eventually, or it'll pop off. One or the other.
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If we're carefull, it won't pop off. If it pops anyway, she'll still be at least dazed/in pain for a bit, giving us time to act.
She CAN'T get free by herself, Berra won't be able to help her, We should be Vegeta-free for at least one more turn, and Yammar is still fighting Apra (and even if he get over her, it's still unlikely he'll be able to instantly free her)

EVEN if she got free, it will take at least a few seconds before she can even START casting spells again, and (assuming Jaffur is healed) being 3v2 ssj, we could probably capture her again.


[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long.

And so we go heal Jaffur, with a special offer of "pay for one senzu bean, get one free Dandeer gripped by her tail to torture and/or monologue to however you want!"

I kind of imagine him simply replying "marry me!"
 
[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Knock out Dandeer now.
-[X] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long.
 
[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Vegeta is getting back into base form, which puts him back in the fight. Wielding Dandeer against him like you did to Dad should work just as well, and you can't leave him unaddressed.

e:

Everyone voting this...

[] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long.

How does that make sense for Kakara? She knows exactly what Jaffur intended to do to his dad, and has no reason to believe it changed.
Geordiefan said:
It's important to note that of the three main options being considered (Vegeta, Yammar or Jaffur), all three would have the exact same end result if successful: Giving our side the advantage in Super Saiyans, either 3-2 or 2-1. Due to this, the only real consideration here is which of the three is more likely to succeed, so let's look at all three in that light.

At the start of the next update, Kakara will have a very brief window of time to act completely unopposed. She could use it to go after Vegeta, but we know that this will likely end up in us using Dandeer against him in the same way we did against Berra, meaning a relatively extended fight, not a straight knockout. We could vote to drop Dandeer and go for that knockout blow, but this comes with obvious risks. If we do end up in that extended fight with Vegeta, we'd have the clear advantage due to Dandeer-flail and would likely win given time, but there is the strong possibility of Yammar defeating Apra and double teaming us before we take out Vegeta. So, not a guaranteed success.
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You are greatly misconstruing the vote. Kakara, in that vote, is intending to go after Vegeta while he has yet to transform, making him very easy to knock out. It will not be an extended engagement in the slightest. Furthermore, wielding Dandeer does not penalize us. It in fact gives us bonuses! I am entirely unsure of where you're getting these ideas but I'd really rather you not spread them since they're strictly untrue.

Lastly, can I point out that the last idea I had got us to this superior position. Perhaps you could extend a bit of trust that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to tactics?

(Quick note: Just woke up, so I may not have been as tactful here as I'd like -- nothing was intended to be an attack on you.)
 
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[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Vegeta is getting back into base form, which puts him back in the fight. Wielding Dandeer against him like you did to Dad should work just as well, and you can't leave him unaddressed.

[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long.
 
[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Vegeta is getting back into base form, which puts him back in the fight. Wielding Dandeer against him like you did to Dad should work just as well, and you can't leave him unaddressed.
 
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[] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long.
Cariyaga said:
How does that make sense for Kakara? She knows exactly what Jaffur intended to do to his dad, and has no reason to believe it changed.
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That was over half a decade ago, I doubt it's at the top of Kakara's priorities right now. And frankly if Jaffur did end up killing Vegeta, it would probably make the aftermath here much simpler.

[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long.
-[X] Immediately knock Dad out - there's no reason for him to be conscious for this.

[X] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[X] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
[] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long.

That was over half a decade ago, I doubt it's at the top of Kakara's priorities right now. And frankly if Jaffur did end up killing Vegeta, it would probably make the aftermath here much simpler.
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So... we're just going to ignore it because Kakara would, until it happens and she's struck by another -40 willpower until she resolves that, as has happened before when she went against one of her foundational traits?

Sounds like a great idea right before an alien invasion.
 
[x] ...you need to even the numbers. Sorry, Dad. "Dandelor, do it."
-[x] Get to Jaffur and force-feed him one of your beans, afterwards. Do it before Vegeta gets back up, and the world will get the showdown for which it's been waiting so long.
 
Cariyaga said:
So... we're just going to ignore it because Kakara would, until it happens and she's struck by another -40 willpower until she resolves that, as has happened before when she went against one of her foundational traits?

Sounds like a great idea right before an alien invasion.
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I don't think she would be - she wouldn't be acting against her trait at all, Jaffur would. We literally saw her resolve not to interrupt at and stop Jaffur form killing Dandeer like 2 updates ago. Getting Jaffur up and into the fight is absolutely in character and not acting against her trait. If she can't kill someone to stop them from killing someone shortly after, she can't hold herself responsible for saving someone and then having that person kill someone shortly after.

This really isn't the same as the incident with the Scout. This isn't me trying to be tricky about how we approach the trait - I genuinely don't think there's an issue here.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I don't think she would be - she wouldn't be acting against her trait at all, Jaffur would. We literally saw her resolve not to interrupt at and stop Jaffur form killing Dandeer like 2 updates ago. Getting Jaffur up and into the fight is absolutely in character and not acting against her trait. If she can't kill someone to stop them from killing someone shortly after, she can't hold herself responsible for saving someone and then having that person kill someone shortly after.

This really isn't the same as the incident with the Scout. This isn't me trying to be tricky about how we approach the trait - I genuinely don't think there's an issue here.
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I don't think Kakara is likely to care whether she wasn't the one to kill him, when another course of actions she could have taken would lead to him being alive.
 
Cariyaga said:
I don't think Kakara is likely to care whether she wasn't the one to kill him, when another course of actions she could have taken would lead to him being alive.
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If we're going to accept indirect responsibility like that, then you have to balance it against the possibility that not beaning Jaffur leads to someone else dying. What are you going to say if we don't bean Jaffur, Vegeta successfully holds us off, and Apra dies because we didn't want Jaffur to fight his dad for fear he might win?
 
Kakara doesn't like murder. She doesn't think murder is necessary. Kakara would not be comfortable with taking an action that enabled someone to kill in her stead.

Seriously people this isn't hard, we've had this character trait for years.

That doesn't mean she wouldn't revive Jaffur, but she won't stand by and let him kill his dad.
 
chryssalideater said:
Kakara doesn't like murder. She doesn't think murder is necessary. Kakara would not be comfortable with taking an action that enabled someone to kill in her stead.

Seriously people this isn't hard, we've had this character trait for years.

That doesn't mean she wouldn't revive Jaffur, but she won't stand by and let him kill his dad.
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She was literally trying to do just that two updates ago with Jaffur trying to kill Dandeer! Without player intervention!
 
Deathbybunnies said:
If we're going to accept indirect responsibility like that, then you have to balance it against the possibility that not beaning Jaffur leads to someone else dying. What are you going to say if we don't bean Jaffur, Vegeta successfully holds us off, and Apra dies because we didn't want Jaffur to fight his dad for fear he might win?
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I'm going to say that we chose the option most likely to lead to nobody dying? Morality really isn't that hard in situations like these. You choose to end the conflict as quickly as possible, without killing, to minimize the risk of shit going sideways.

Deathbybunnies said:
She was literally trying to do just that two updates ago with Jaffur trying to kill Dandeer! Without player intervention!
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You mean two updates ago when she actively stopped Jaffur from killing his mother by her own thoughts?
 
Cariyaga said:
You mean two updates ago when she actively stopped Jaffur from killing his mother by her own thoughts?
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Neither of you are correct in this case Kakara never came to a resolution either way and here's the quote to prove it:

You wrestle with yourself for a moment about whether or not to contest that; on the one hand, you do not, cannot agree with it, and on the other, now is not the time to be distracting Jaffur with these kinds of things. You haven't yet come to a conclusion on the topic when you belatedly realize that Synchronicity is still active, and Jaffur can hear everything you're thinking.
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Cariyaga said:
You mean two updates ago when she actively stopped Jaffur from killing his mother by her own thoughts?
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I mean the update where she was wrestling with the subject matter herself, and accidentally threw Jaffur off at just the wrong moment.

I don't hold that Kakara thinks that she should be held responsible for the actions of others. In fact, thinking about it, this is exactly the sort of situation where a trait might evolve to match what the players voted for - so if we buy into your way of thinking, we will might* be stuck with an even more restrictive form of Batman ethics than we already have. No thank you!

*I actually think it's pretty likely, but it's not fair to make a definitive claim based only on my opinion.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I mean the update where she was wrestling with the subject matter herself, and accidentally threw Jaffur off at just the wrong moment.

I don't hold that Kakara thinks that she should be held responsible for the actions of others. In fact, thinking about it, this is exactly the sort of situation where a trait might evolve to match what the players voted for - so if we buy into your way of thinking, we will might* be stuck with an even more restrictive form of Batman ethics than we already have. No thank you!
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Yes thank you. I followed this quest to start because Kakara's opposed to killing. You can find seven other quests with murder hobos anywhere, but a saiyan who refuses to kill is something special.
 
Cariyaga said:
Yes thank you. I followed this quest to start because Kakara's opposed to killing. You can find seven other quests with murder hobos anywhere, but a saiyan who refuses to kill is something special.
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I'd argue we already have that, but I'm in this for the setting, the characters, the story and to win - and I don't particularly care about the pacifism, which is why I suppose I tend to see it in a negative light - whenever it comes into play and affects something I do care about, it's in a negative/restrictive fashion.

Anyway, my point being that I don't see how your wanting Kakara to be opposed to killing isn't already satisfied without stacking even stronger restrictions upon it.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I'd argue we already have that, but I'm in this for the setting, the characters, the story and to win - and I don't particularly care about the pacifism, which is why I suppose I tend to see it in a negative light - whenever it comes into play and affects something I do care about, it's in a negative/restrictive fashion.

Anyway, my point being that I don't see how your wanting Kakara to be opposed to killing isn't already satisfied without stacking even stronger restrictions upon it.
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I don't see why you think that Kakara moving to avoid someone dying in the future is stacking strong restrictions on it, and we're getting away from the point here.

Poptart has said that Kakara can easily take out Vegeta before he transforms. At that point, if you really want to get Jaffur back up we can, assuming Apra is still doing alright, and if she isn't then Kakara can engage while Dandelor takes out Yammar too. I can not see any likely way for this to turn out poorly, whereas I can see a way for reviving Jaffur to turn out poorly.

e: Let me put it this way: The penalty Dandeer-flail provides her thralls is so significant that Poptart did not bother (publically, at least) rolling. Given this, we will be able to take out the non-super saiyan very quickly.
 
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Cariyaga said:
Poptart has said that Kakara can easily take out Vegeta before he transforms. At that point, if you really want to get Jaffur back up we can, assuming Apra is still doing alright, and if she isn't then Kakara can engage while Dandelor takes out Yammar too. I can not see any likely way for this to turn out poorly, whereas I can see a way for reviving Jaffur to turn out poorly.

e: Let me put it this way: The penalty Dandeer-flail provides her thralls is so significant that Poptart did not bother (publically, at least) rolling. Given this, we will be able to take out the non-super saiyan very quickly.
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I didn't think they meant "easily enough you won't even roll for it." I figured they was just not showing us all the rolls - they hide rolls very often, I thought? If you have a WOG saying we can take down Vegeta without even rolling, I'll switch my vote, and we can deal with Jaffur's bruised ego after the fact.
 
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