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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Gore17 said:
1) Berra is far stronger and more skilled then us. Not a good comparison.
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I mean, if we go purely by the system, I don't think he has higher rankings in Hand to Hand fighting than we do? What he has on us is Goku Style and experience.
Gore17 said:
2) Berra was unlikely to be aiming for non-lethal.
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He probably was, though. Berra hasn't been ordered to kill anyone here and doesn't want to kill anyone here, and Dandeer wouldn't want Jaffur dead either.

I agree that Jaffur might only be down for a bit, though, but knocking Vegeta down for the same time would still even the fight.
 
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LeMat said:
[X] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[X] Keep going after Dandeer, in conjunction with Dandelor. She is as distracted as she is ever going to get. It'll mean getting past your father to do it, but you have the edge in speed; it should be doable.

The only reason I can see to go for the tail option, besides fun, would be if her mind control keeps functioning after she loses consciousness. I'm not confident we can beat Berra alone, and healing Jaffur would give him time to kill a lot of Senzus. Do we know if knocking her out, or even killing her, will end this? Hopefully, we can keep him engaged long enough for Dandelor to break the spell, if it is persistent. If the fight lasts long enough for Vegeta to rejoin, we probably lose, assuming Jaffur doesn't recover on his own.
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If the mind control lasts after she passes out then Vegeta,Berra, and old Vegeta may be distracted by us having Dandeer which may let the Senzus heal Jaffur.
 
Bommelom said:
I mean, if we go purely by the system, I don't think he has higher rankings in Hand to Hand fighting than we do? What he has on us is Goku Style and experience.
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Um, yes he does. He had Elite Duelling, Talented Team Fighting and Competent Crowd Fighting. However, his Elite Duelling talent let him add half his Duelling bonus to Crowd Fighting.

Additionally, he possesses several Ki Manipulation skills at Exceptional, two of which are our best Ki Manipulation skills(Kamehameha and IT).

Add in that his best style matches his best skills, while ours don't, and he's an overwhelmingly superior fighter.
 
..Also, guh. I don't really like the "swing Dandeer around" idea at all, and it sounds like something that could go horribly wrong.

Firstly, I don't really see how it's any better than simply punching her hard enough to knock her out of the fight. Either way, she's out of the fight and can't stop Dandelor trying to break the mind control.

Of course, if we swing her around, we'll get to use her as a meatshield, but the problem is that Vegeta is gonna get back into the fight soon, and I don't we can take on both of them even with a meatshield, especially since we need to hands to hold her (one at the tail, one at something that won't fall off if we pull too hard), which will limit us from using several ki abilities, including Instant Transmission and thus leave us open to Vegeta and Berra trying to surround and grapple us.

Heck, even if we got our hands on a Dandeer meatshield, threatening to hurt (or kill) her in order to make Berra/Vegeta/Yammar stand down, transform into base and let us heal Jaffur would likely be a better option than just swinging her around like a weapon. I simply don't think we can take a Golden Ape down with physical attacks with Dandeer, especially since using enough force to hurt Berra would likely kill Dandeer.

There's also the fact that we've tried to target Dandeer two times in a row (power ball + Jaffur trying to kill her). Not only did both attempts fail, so I'm not really too hopeful about a third one working, but Berra is going to be expecting a third attempt (which is why going for either healing Jaffur or clobbering Vegeta would be a better idea).

I think most of the canned options is better than this, though I'm still especially fond of going for Vegeta, since if we Instant Transmit Berra's likely going to assume we're going for Dandeer again (since that's what we did the last two times), which could give us a free shot at taking out Vegeta (after which we could still go for Dandeer).

[X] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[X] Try to get around your father and take down Vegeta before he returns to base form. If you can even the numbers, you can still salvage this.

[] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[] Try to get around your father and take down Vegeta before he returns to base form. If you can even the numbers, you can still salvage this.
-[] If possible, use Instant Transmission so he won't know whether you're going for Vegeta or Dandeer, then Instant Transmit next to Vegeta so he will be between you and your father.

[X] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[X] The Senzus can't reach Jaffur right now without turning into collateral damage. Focus on getting him to them for healing.

Gore17 said:
Um, yes he does. He had Elite Duelling, Talented Team Fighting and Competent Crowd Fighting. However, his Elite Duelling talent let him add half his Duelling bonus to Crowd Fighting.
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..Oh, right, Elite dueling. I still don't think that means he can knock people unconscious if we can't, though I agree he's stronger than us in a straight fight.
 
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KaintukeeBob said:
Third time's the charm. That's like, a rule.
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Okay, but..even if we do manage to get our hands on Dandeer (and Berra will be expecting that, so it's going to be harder than taking out Vegeta or getting Jaffur healed), I'm still not sure how effective this plan is going to be.

We'll have to fend off both Vegeta and Berra while Dandeer breaks the mind control, and we have no idea how long time that'll take. Meanwhile, even if we do have a Dandeer meatshield, using her as a flail means we'll have to use two hands (one to hold her tail, the other to swing her around using a limb that doesn't get pulled off) which again means that we don't be able to use Solar Flare, Instant Transmission or any of our other techniques. That's not a fight I think we can win.

So, if we want to get our hands on Dandeer and use her as a meatshield, why not try to hold her hostage instead? Like, tell Berra/Yammar/Vegeta to power down immediately or we'll start ripping off her limbs/hurting her in some unspecified way (and also make sure she can't give any orders to make them refuse). That way, there's a chance we can end the fight immediately rather than try to hold our own against one Golden Ape and one Super Saiyan with no ki techniques. If that doesn't work we still have the option of using her as a flail.

I still think that going for Jaffur or Vegeta will be more effective, as Berra going to expect us attacking Dandeer, but if we want grab Dandeer's tail, we can at least try to use it to end the fight immediately rather than get into a very difficult fight in which we will also have to protect Dandelor.

[] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[] Go for Dandeer's tail, threatening to remove her limbs one by one if Berra, Yammar and Vegeta do not power down immediately. If they try anything funny, make good on your threat and remove a single limb, in addition to using Dandeer as a meatshield.

[] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[] Go for Dandeer's tail, threatening to hurt her if Berra, Yammar and Vegeta do not power down immediately. If they try anything funny, make good on your threat in addition to using Dandeer as a meatshield.

@PoptartProdigy, would Kakara be able to remove limbs from Dandeer (and Vegeta, for that matter, since Gore mentioned the idea) without killing her, and does she hate Dandeer enough that she'd be willing to do so?

And since it's been brought up some times, is telekinetically grabbing a tail even possible? Since, well, it sounds like something that'd be very commonly used if it was.

Oh, and how long does it take to do a willpower push, could we do one now, and if so, do our bonuses against Dandeer and the Sealing apply?
 
I also feel that it might get around Dandeers defenses. She's probably prepped for being knocked out or killed, but swinging her around isn't really hurting her, so magical defenses might not proc.
 
chryssalideater said:
I also feel that it might get around Dandeers defenses. She's probably prepped for being knocked out or killed, but swinging her around isn't really hurting her, so magical defenses might not proc.
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I mean, the main method of incapacitation here is to cause her incredible pain by holding her tail, not by making her queasy by swinging her around. The flail part just seems, well, unnecessary.

Also, I don't think Dandeer can just make wards against "being killed" or "being knocked unconscious". Remember, she made a shield against Jaffur, which she wouldn't have needed to if she was immune to being killed, and a shield is going to be just as effective at stopping us from grabbing her tail as it is at stopping us from hitting her in the face.
 
Bommelom said:
@PoptartProdigy, would Kakara be able to remove limbs from Dandeer (and Vegeta, for that matter, since Gore mentioned the idea) without killing her, and does she hate Dandeer enough that she'd be willing to do so?

And since it's been brought up some times, is telekinetically grabbing a tail even possible? Since, well, it sounds like something that'd be very commonly used if it was.

Oh, and how long does it take to do a willpower push, could we do one now, and if so, do our bonuses against Dandeer and the Sealing apply?
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...technically? In that Dandeer might not die of shock or exsanguination. It's kinda hard to rip off somebody's limbs in a combat situation, while being pressured by their allies, without inflicting lethal damage. But hey, anything's possible. Maybe Kakara will be able to cauterize the wounds to solve the exsanguination problem. Without turbo-charging the shock problem. Without medical training. I mean, I hadn't thought that I needed to trait in that Kakara's not sanguine with mutilating people. If you pass a vote for her to do it, she'll do it, but she won't be happy about it.

Already said yes; the issue is that it's easily broken if your target has a buddy about.

Willpower pushes are effectively free actions, as in the push itself takes up little time.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
...technically? In that Dandeer might not die of shock or exsanguination. It's kinda hard to rip off somebody's limbs in a combat situation, while being pressured by their allies, without inflicting lethal damage. But hey, anything's possible. Maybe Kakara will be able to cauterize the wounds to solve the exsanguination problem. Without turbo-charging the shock problem. Without medical training. I mean, I hadn't thought that I needed to trait in that Kakara's not sanguine with mutilating people. If you pass a vote for her to do it, she'll do it, but she won't be happy about it.
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Would Senzu beans save Dandeer in this situation?

..And yeah, I figured that Kakara probably didn't want to multilate people and was more wondering if her hate for Dandeer was enough to counteract that.

Ripping off Dandeer's limbs really is a bit too brutal, a generic threat to hurt her would probably suffice.
 
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Bommelom said:
Would Senzu beans save Dandeer in this situation?

..And yeah, I figured that Kakara probably didn't want to multilate people and was more wondering if her hate for Dandeer was enough to counteract that.

Ripping off Dandeer's limbs really is a bit too brutal, a generic threat to hurt her would probably suffice.
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If you get her the bean in time (and she's capable of swallowing) then yes, but those are unbelievably traumatic injuries.

Her hate is not enough. That's both her axiomatically believing that she should maim people and her being a thirteen-year-old.
 
Ok. Umm. Weren't we giving shit to Yammar about grabbing Dandeer a few updates ago? Granted, she probably did some prep work beforehand to subvert him but...
 
ilbgar123 said:
Can we swing her around and use her as a flail without ripping her tail off, that's the question here.
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Yes.
PoptartProdigy said:
The Oddball option. If this vote wins, I will not have Kakara wildly swinging Dandeer around by the tail; Kakara will maintain a grip on Dandeer's tail, but choose to fulcrum her swings on a more structurally-sound body part. If victorious, the update ensuing from this vote would break following Dandelor's efforts at breaking the mind control. EDIT: Forgot to mention tactical considerations. The idea is to, in addition to torturing Dandeer, use her as a combined human shield and unblockable weapon. Berra can't really block against her without crippling or killing her, meaning he has to instead avoid her. Given that he is significantly slower than Kakara right now, that puts him at a massive disadvantage.

FIGHT!
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Bakkasama said:
Ok. Umm. Weren't we giving shit to Yammar about grabbing Dandeer a few updates ago? Granted, she probably did some prep work beforehand to subvert him but...
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I mean, it is a risk, but in this case we're holding on to her tail which should prevent her from doing any spellcasting.

I still think we should be going after Vegeta or Jaffur given that Berra will be ready to protect Dandeer and we're pretty fucked if we don't manage to get to Dandeer (as we'll have to fight both Vegeta and Berra).

HoratioVonBecker said:
Oh, I agree. The flail part is for fun.

I stand corrected. It's also surprisingly practical.
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Yeah, but it also prevents us from using any of our techniques since we're using two hands to hold Dandeer. Not sure that's a good trade, really. If this was a spar, I'd be all for this plan, but in a losing battle against Berra and Vegeta, not so much.
 
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We have seen that Dandeer has a stupidly high pain tolerance, which isn't really surprising. Even assuming that she hasn't, voluntarily or involuntary, had her tail trained over the years, it doesn't seem like a good idea to bet on it working.
 
[x] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[x] Try to get around your father and take down Vegeta before he returns to base form. If you can even the numbers, you can still salvage this.

[x] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[x] The Senzus can't reach Jaffur right now without turning into collateral damage. Focus on getting him to them for healing.
 
ilbgar123 said:
Getting swung around is bound to be distracting though, especially if it dredges up bad memories.
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We explicitly won't be flailing her around thought. And considering her precautions, I would be surprised if Dandeer hasn't trained her tail.

And I'm surprised the try to get through to dad vote doesn't have more votes. I mean, a vote that attempts to trigger two different Foundational Traits could probably pick up some pretty nice bonuses. To say nothing of the really cool narrative side of the option.
 
Tylonius said:
We explicitly won't be flailing her around thought. And considering her precautions, I would be surprised if Dandeer hasn't trained her tail.

And I'm surprised the try to get through to dad vote doesn't have more votes. I mean, a vote that attempts to trigger two different Foundational Traits could probably pick up some pretty nice bonuses. To say nothing of the really cool narrative side of the option.
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It's by far the riskiest option, though, especially since if we're dropping down to a power level low enough that (as Bakkasama mentioned) Berra could just non-lethally (or even non-painfully) take us out with his massive speed advantage.

I also don't think we're in a enough of a bind that it makes sense to try to appeal to Berra yet, though if the situation deteriorates further it'd probably end up being our last viable option (other than a lucky willpower push), though I still don't think powering down will be necessary to trigger the Hopeful trait.

At this point, though, we can still salvage the situation if we either take out Vegeta or get Jaffur healed, while trying to win over Berra would likely easier the longer the fight goes on and the more we're getting beaten, so I'd rather go with a safer option instead.
 
Tylonius said:
We explicitly won't be flailing her around thought. And considering her precautions, I would be surprised if Dandeer hasn't trained her tail.

And I'm surprised the try to get through to dad vote doesn't have more votes. I mean, a vote that attempts to trigger two different Foundational Traits could probably pick up some pretty nice bonuses. To say nothing of the really cool narrative side of the option.
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No, you will be, it just won't be by the tail. You'll keep a grip on the tail; you'll swing her by something which can actually take the strain.
 
Even if Dandeer has trained her tail, Kakara was taken out momentarily when hers was severed, and I don't doubt that it will be further distracting -- hopefully enough for Dandelor to break the mind control.
 
Bommelom said:
It's by far the riskiest option, though, especially since if we're dropping down to a power level low enough that (as Bakkasama mentioned) Berra could just non-lethally (or even non-painfully) take us out with his massive speed advantage.
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That's why I modified the vote to say we aren't just dropping our PL, we are explicitly looking to be in front of an attack that's coming our way before we drop it.

Whether it's a punch or a ki blast, we will be dropping our PL shortly before it hits us, not just dropping our PL and giving Berra a chance to react.
 
[x] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[x] The Senzus can't reach Jaffur right now without turning into collateral damage. Focus on getting him to them for healing.
 
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