Not yet. You've only uncovered the first requirement. You have a couple avenues of research for figuring out the rest: figure out how to ask Jaffur (requires a multi-step process involving figuring out how to reliably reach his mind, communicating with him, and convincing him), or figure it out by deriving the base principles (will just take a long time).
Not yet. You've only uncovered the first requirement. You have a couple avenues of research for figuring out the rest: figure out how to ask Jaffur (requires a multi-step process involving figuring out how to reliably reach his mind, communicating with him, and convincing him), or figure it out by deriving the base principles (will just take a long time).
Right, then. In case it'll help, I'm posting the relevant part of the update with the styles in here (Satan Style is not relevant, damnit!) here, then.
Goku Style: The iconic style of your House, this style relies on overwhelming physical assaults and is heavily offensive in nature, falling back on mobility to evade attacks only when severely outmatched. Ki blasts are used, but generally not as a primary feature of combat. They're finishing attacks, not the main show, and outside a special few, practitioners of this form will have little facility here. Given its progenitor, it is not remotely suited to fighting with anybody else, having been created in expectation and even anticipation of fighting all enemies alone. Involved techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Dueling], Kaio-Ken, Kamehameha, Instant Transmission, Spirit Bomb (Lost Technique). Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], Ki Projection [All Save Signature Techniques].
Vegeta Style: The iconic style of House Vegeta, this form tends towards a different approach. Created by a warrior who commonly fought entire armies unaided or with limited backup, this form shines when put against multiple foes. As is only sensible for those kinds of conditions, ranged combat proved to be most efficient, and thus while the practitioners of this style can certainly fight up close, they have a lot of talent at range. It is overwhelmingly aggressive and unrestrained, and has virtually no response to being put on the back foot. This style emphasizes absorbing punishment over avoiding it, and thus is not for the weak of body or spirit. Involved techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Crowd Fighting], Galick Gun, Big Bang Attack, Final Flash, Ki Projection [Basic Attacks]. Penalized techniques: Flight, Ki Control, Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting].
Krillin Style: A balanced form that plays well with others, this style is near-unique in that it seems to have been built in the expectation of being outmatched. Emphasizing evasion and targeting of vulnerabilities, this form has virtually no defense to direct confrontation. Given its creator, that's sensible. Practitioners of the above two forms tend to study this at least a bit so that they're not so helpless should they be confronted with a superior opponent, and so they don't commit the grand idiocy of being so overwhelmingly offensive that they prefer to allow themselves to be punched in the face if it allows them to do the same to their opponent. Involved techniques: Ki Control, Solar Flare, Kienzan, Flight, Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], Kamehameha. Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Dueling], Hand-to-Hand [Crowd Fighting].
Piccolo Style/Demon Style: The form of Piccolo, this emphasizes precise and clever strikes with great concentration of power, and a balance of offense and defense. It possesses powerful techniques at any range, but lacks specialization. Practicing this style demands an ability to control the field of battle as is most expedient at any given moment. Involved techniques: Makankosappo, Explosive Wave, Evil Explosion, Masenko, Light Grenade, Hellzone Grenade. Penalized techniques: None, but bonuses elsewhere are smaller than other schools.
Turtle Style: Roshi's style is largely an anachronism that was designed before the full potential of ki was realized by the Z Fighters, and you should not use it in a real fight. It is meant to be used by a fighter locked to the ground, against a fighter locked to the ground, and treats any and all external use of ki as a flagrant and extravagant expense to be saved only for the direst of eventualities. That said, as a foundation for other styles, it's fantastic. Its reliance on hand-to-hand means that practitioners are very good at it in absolutely all of its forms. Involved techniques: Hand-to-Hand [All, Extreme], Kamehameha. Penalized techniques: All Ki Talents (save Ki Control) and Ki Projection skills, and cripplingly so.
Trunks Style: While Trunks of our timeline contributed little to fighting given that he never actually refined his technique beyond what he had at eight years of age, his future counterpart contributed a brutally pragmatic and survivalist style to the Z Fighters' understanding of combat. This style assumes constant unfavorable numbers against overwhelmingly powerful opponents, demanding insane agility and swift exploitation of exposed openings, with none of the acknowledged theatricality of other styles. In addition, it is the only form developed in conjunction with a weapon. It shines against multiple opponents and when outmatched, and its use of a sword tends to take opponents off-guard. Involved techniques: Sword Use, Hand-to-Hand [Crowd Fighting], Flight (to an extreme), Burning Attack, Masenko, Heat Dome Attack, Final Flash. Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting, or all when without a sword], Ki Sense.
Yamcha Style: This is nearly extinct, but to be honest, it's undervalued. While he eventually retired and was constantly outmatched in strength, many forget that Yamcha was a talented martial artist, who even after years of retirement and with a total lack of Saiyan biology was able to defend against Golden Freeza's invasion of Earth right along with the rest of the Z Fighters. As a derivation of the Turtle School it contains all that you would expect, along with a focus on flurry strikes and esoteric ki techniques that overwhelm the opponent's ability to keep up -- very much the school of death by a thousand cuts. Involved techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Dueling], Spirit Ball, Kamehameha, Flight, Wolf Fang Fist. Penalized Techniques: Ki Sense, Ki Projection (all save involved techniques).
Tenshinhan Style: This form is rarely-practiced, but deceptive for all that. Tenshinhan's form is refined and balanced, offering few concrete advantages, but unlocking the potential to pour the user's life force into an attack. Practitioners have no stylistic weaknesses, and gain a risky but powerful last resort option, in addition to a variety of strange techniques. Involved techniques: Solar Flare, Multi-Form, Four Witches Technique, Kikoho, Shin Kikoho.
Gohan Style: A blend of the Demon and Goku Styles, this form is more heavily geared towards hand-to-hand than the Piccolo Style and loses on some of its versatility and most of its precision, but lacks the near-total weakness of the Goku Style outside of zero range. In addition, it is less useless on the defensive than the Goku Style in exchange for tending to be less effective on the attack, and is in fact capable of, when necessary, dodging. That said, it retains a preference for the offensive in a fight. This is an excellent form for fighters with a hand-to-hand focus who don't wish to risk the notorious overspecialization of the Goku Style. Involved techniques: Kamehameha, Masenko, Hand-to-Hand [Dueling]. Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], all Ki Projection talents that involve the dense concentration of power.
Right, then. In case it'll help, I'm posting the relevant part of the update with the styles in here (Satan Style is not relevant, damnit!) here, then.
Goku Style: The iconic style of your House, this style relies on overwhelming physical assaults and is heavily offensive in nature, falling back on mobility to evade attacks only when severely outmatched. Ki blasts are used, but generally not as a primary feature of combat. They're finishing attacks, not the main show, and outside a special few, practitioners of this form will have little facility here. Given its progenitor, it is not remotely suited to fighting with anybody else, having been created in expectation and even anticipation of fighting all enemies alone. Involved techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Dueling], Kaio-Ken, Kamehameha, Instant Transmission, Spirit Bomb (Lost Technique). Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], Ki Projection [All Save Signature Techniques].
Vegeta Style: The iconic style of House Vegeta, this form tends towards a different approach. Created by a warrior who commonly fought entire armies unaided or with limited backup, this form shines when put against multiple foes. As is only sensible for those kinds of conditions, ranged combat proved to be most efficient, and thus while the practitioners of this style can certainly fight up close, they have a lot of talent at range. It is overwhelmingly aggressive and unrestrained, and has virtually no response to being put on the back foot. This style emphasizes absorbing punishment over avoiding it, and thus is not for the weak of body or spirit. Involved techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Crowd Fighting], Galick Gun, Big Bang Attack, Final Flash, Ki Projection [Basic Attacks]. Penalized techniques: Flight, Ki Control, Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting].
Krillin Style: A balanced form that plays well with others, this style is near-unique in that it seems to have been built in the expectation of being outmatched. Emphasizing evasion and targeting of vulnerabilities, this form has virtually no defense to direct confrontation. Given its creator, that's sensible. Practitioners of the above two forms tend to study this at least a bit so that they're not so helpless should they be confronted with a superior opponent, and so they don't commit the grand idiocy of being so overwhelmingly offensive that they prefer to allow themselves to be punched in the face if it allows them to do the same to their opponent. Involved techniques: Ki Control, Solar Flare, Kienzan, Flight, Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], Kamehameha. Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Dueling], Hand-to-Hand [Crowd Fighting].
Piccolo Style/Demon Style: The form of Piccolo, this emphasizes precise and clever strikes with great concentration of power, and a balance of offense and defense. It possesses powerful techniques at any range, but lacks specialization. Practicing this style demands an ability to control the field of battle as is most expedient at any given moment. Involved techniques: Makankosappo, Explosive Wave, Evil Explosion, Masenko, Light Grenade, Hellzone Grenade. Penalized techniques: None, but bonuses elsewhere are smaller than other schools.
Turtle Style: Roshi's style is largely an anachronism that was designed before the full potential of ki was realized by the Z Fighters, and you should not use it in a real fight. It is meant to be used by a fighter locked to the ground, against a fighter locked to the ground, and treats any and all external use of ki as a flagrant and extravagant expense to be saved only for the direst of eventualities. That said, as a foundation for other styles, it's fantastic. Its reliance on hand-to-hand means that practitioners are very good at it in absolutely all of its forms. Involved techniques: Hand-to-Hand [All, Extreme], Kamehameha. Penalized techniques: All Ki Talents (save Ki Control) and Ki Projection skills, and cripplingly so.
Trunks Style: While Trunks of our timeline contributed little to fighting given that he never actually refined his technique beyond what he had at eight years of age, his future counterpart contributed a brutally pragmatic and survivalist style to the Z Fighters' understanding of combat. This style assumes constant unfavorable numbers against overwhelmingly powerful opponents, demanding insane agility and swift exploitation of exposed openings, with none of the acknowledged theatricality of other styles. In addition, it is the only form developed in conjunction with a weapon. It shines against multiple opponents and when outmatched, and its use of a sword tends to take opponents off-guard. Involved techniques: Sword Use, Hand-to-Hand [Crowd Fighting], Flight (to an extreme), Burning Attack, Masenko, Heat Dome Attack, Final Flash. Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting, or all when without a sword], Ki Sense.
Yamcha Style: This is nearly extinct, but to be honest, it's undervalued. While he eventually retired and was constantly outmatched in strength, many forget that Yamcha was a talented martial artist, who even after years of retirement and with a total lack of Saiyan biology was able to defend against Golden Freeza's invasion of Earth right along with the rest of the Z Fighters. As a derivation of the Turtle School it contains all that you would expect, along with a focus on flurry strikes and esoteric ki techniques that overwhelm the opponent's ability to keep up -- very much the school of death by a thousand cuts. Involved techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Dueling], Spirit Ball, Kamehameha, Flight, Wolf Fang Fist. Penalized Techniques: Ki Sense, Ki Projection (all save involved techniques).
Tenshinhan Style: This form is rarely-practiced, but deceptive for all that. Tenshinhan's form is refined and balanced, offering few concrete advantages, but unlocking the potential to pour the user's life force into an attack. Practitioners have no stylistic weaknesses, and gain a risky but powerful last resort option, in addition to a variety of strange techniques. Involved techniques: Solar Flare, Multi-Form, Four Witches Technique, Kikoho, Shin Kikoho.
Gohan Style: A blend of the Demon and Goku Styles, this form is more heavily geared towards hand-to-hand than the Piccolo Style and loses on some of its versatility and most of its precision, but lacks the near-total weakness of the Goku Style outside of zero range. In addition, it is less useless on the defensive than the Goku Style in exchange for tending to be less effective on the attack, and is in fact capable of, when necessary, dodging. That said, it retains a preference for the offensive in a fight. This is an excellent form for fighters with a hand-to-hand focus who don't wish to risk the notorious overspecialization of the Goku Style. Involved techniques: Kamehameha, Masenko, Hand-to-Hand [Dueling]. Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], all Ki Projection talents that involve the dense concentration of power.
I think Aranfan asked because of the various others that were put forward; part of the reason you and Andres got cookies is because I game-balanced and implemented your proposed styles, although yours aren't available to Garenhulders, so I need to post them somewhere visible. It's not needed yet, though, and I've been fairly busy IRL lately, so I've de-prioritized them to an extent.
Bleh. If we're going to play up her innocence and pacifism, let's make use of it. Exploit her potential to use potent external energy sources and focus her style around the Spirit Cluster Bomb and Spirit Autocannon.
This of course assumes that effectiveness translates to winning the fight. It doesn't, always. Whether or not you want a pacifist style is not about how proficient you want to be, it's about solidifying how much Kakara values life.
In the case of anything not a pacifist style, the answer is, "only up to a point."
Pacifism is difficult. Worthwhile? Its adherents say so, yes. But difficult. It restricts your options. So if you want Kakara to value life absolutely, that means sacrificing combat-effectiveness. If you're comfortable with her saying that life is less valuable than certain objectives, then go for a lethal style.
At the end of the day, this is a very difficult question for even adults, and it's what the choice you're debating boils down t
Would it be possible to make a coherent character out of Kakara who invents Pacifist Style and has that as her highest mastery style, with all but one other one being adept, since that one is for use when she decides someone actually deserves to die?
And then have that "F you, I'm actually going to kill you now" style be Frieza Style?
Would it be possible to make a coherent character out of Kakara who invents Pacifist Style and has that as her highest mastery style, with all but one other one being adept, since that one is for use when she decides someone actually deserves to die?
And then have that "F you, I'm actually going to kill you now" style be Frieza Style?
I mean we've established that Freiza style has a really bad reputation, so switching between it and 'pacifist style' seems like it would defeat the purpose of making pacifist style in the first place.
'Oh sure, she talks about pacifism, but when the chips are down look what she uses' type thing..
I mean we've established that Freiza style has a really bad reputation, so switching between it and 'pacifist style' seems like it would defeat the purpose of making pacifist style in the first place.
'Oh sure, she talks about pacifism, but when the chips are down look what she uses' type thing..
The idea was that this would be a Kakara who wanted to avoid killing as long as she possibly could, but if she was absolutely forced to have to kill someone, she wants to end them as fast as possible, because it means the situation is extremely desperate. Therefore, her style for when she decides something actually needs to die, is the one focused absolutely and completely on killing, even if it is brutal.
Personally I still think we should learn Tenshinhan style even if it doesn't increase our yearly actions, mostly because if we learn Kaio-ken, Multiform could actually be incredibly useful in combat. Like, "totally invalidates Golden Oozaru" levels of useful. Since Oozaru power and base power are separate and therefore doesn't get halved by multiform and since Kaio-ken is fairly easy to use with Oozaru, we could split into Kaio-ken Oozaru Kakara (who would be just as powerful as Golden Oozaru Kakara) and SSJ Kakara.
We could go Multiform + Kaio-ken Oozaru with Goku style too, yes, but Goku style penalizes Team Fighting, which is what we'd use if Kaio-ken Oozaru Kakara and SSJ Kakara tried to team up op, say, Berra, and the rest of the Tenshinhan style techniques are good as well.
The idea was that this would be a Kakara who wanted to avoid killing as long as she possibly could, but if she was absolutely forced to have to kill someone, she wants to end them as fast as possible, because it means the situation is extremely desperate. Therefore, her style for when she decides something actually needs to die, is the one focused absolutely and completely on killing, even if it is brutal.
Wouldn't 'Beerus' style be better for that (assuming it exists) rather then Freiza style?
Not only would it avoid the bad reputation that comes from Freiza style it could be used as a 'sharp contrast', going from a more graceful 'Pacifist' style that showed the importance of life and sparing it, to the abrupt, hyper lethal ugliness that comes from the God of Destruction. The dissonant contrast that basically states 'you don't deserve to be part of the world I will make' and the style completely revolved around annihilating the target as quickly as possible to make it clear that it isn't something you enjoy and you want it to end soon.
Wouldn't 'Beerus' style be better for that (assuming it exists) rather then Freiza style?
Not only would it avoid the bad reputation that comes from Freiza style it could be used as a 'sharp contrast', going from a more graceful 'Pacifist' style that showed the importance of life and sparing it, to the abrupt, hyper lethal ugliness that comes from the God of Destruction. The dissonant contrast that basically states 'you don't deserve to be part of the world I will make' and the style completely revolved around annihilating the target as quickly as possible to make it clear that it isn't something you enjoy and you want it to end soon.
...Well. If it exists and we have access to it, it would totally be better. The main thing is that Frieza style was the only one we already know exists that has that particular kind of focus, and the kind of character I was talking about wouldn't develop a better one for that on her own. But, yes, that is precisely the kind of attitude I was hoping to show with that contrast.
No, seriously. We know that spirit bomb can be scaled in prep time and power. Its power is very versatile and flexible and can even be gifted to others to use completely untrained. It draws from external energy, so it doesn't exhaust the user and it can even be used to full effect when the user is half-dead. External power source also means that Kakara can spam clones using it to full effect even while others are full-power raging Super Saiyans and Great Apes. On top of it all, it doesn't harm those who are pure of heart, thus getting around Kakara's pacifism and kindness limitations. Develop a whole style based around various attacks of various powers and speed from it. The Tien style is already a balanced style which incorporates the ability to use one's own life force to fuel its attacks- take it and add in the ability to fuel techniques using other life force.
Wouldn't 'Beerus' style be better for that (assuming it exists) rather then Freiza style?
Not only would it avoid the bad reputation that comes from Freiza style it could be used as a 'sharp contrast', going from a more graceful 'Pacifist' style that showed the importance of life and sparing it, to the abrupt, hyper lethal ugliness that comes from the God of Destruction. The dissonant contrast that basically states 'you don't deserve to be part of the world I will make' and the style completely revolved around annihilating the target as quickly as possible to make it clear that it isn't something you enjoy and you want it to end soon.
...Well. If it exists and we have access to it, it would totally be better. The main thing is that Frieza style was the only one we already know exists that has that particular kind of focus, and the kind of character I was talking about wouldn't develop a better one for that on her own. But, yes, that is precisely the kind of attitude I was hoping to show with that contrast.
I think there's only two modes to Beerus fighting.
Either he's fucking around and seeing if anyone can match him, or he gets serious or piss offed and uses his God of Destruction powers to outright delete them from the universe.
While there is much good to be said for the BOD PL system, it has one major flaw. That flaw is the power level limits. Because while a raw ki quantity makes sense to be limited, that isn't what PL actually is. We know from when Ginyu swapped bodies with Goku that skill in ki use can multiply effective power level tremendously. Ginyu estimated Goku's pre-Kaioken PL at 85k, yet when in Goku's body was only able to achieve 23k. This is a difference of more than x3 that can only be accounted for by the difference in skill level between Ginyu and Goku.
This goes counter to BOD presumption of a hard cap of 15mil pre-SSJ.
I would speculate therefore, that the Garenhuld exiles has considerably less developed Ki Theory than was available to the Z Fighters due to Mutaito/Kami/King Kai. This makes a certain degree of sense, considering the circumstances of the exile. It also opens the possiblity that the unlimited Ki potential of humans is more a skill thing from the Mutaito derived Ki Theory, that has since been lost to the exiles.
This means also that if Krillin trained 18, she could have significantly more power now than she did in the show/manga, and if we came into contact with her she could revolutionize the Garenhuld Saiyan understanding of Ki, and allow Saiyans both SSJ and Base to break the cap.
Incidentally, this observation allows Vegeta to be more powerful than Goku even as Goku is superior to him, because while Vegeta has more Raw Power, Goku's skill lets him surpass him. Kind of exactly like when Goku went Kaio Ken x3 to kick Vegeta's ass.
Now that I think of it, Kaio-Ken is probably based on similar principles, and that's how Goku managed to get it so easily and even improve it to be always on as he did. Actually if that's the case, then it might be possible to reverse engineer this from the Kaio-Ken, since the Exiles do know it.
Edit: A Ki Enhancement Skill multiplier to power level would explain how Krillin continued to improve and get stronger after Namek.
We're not arguing over a lethal versus non-lethal style, we're arguing over a hurting versus non-hurting style. Basically, Aranfan is arguing for a style where we don't hit anyone - we just use disabling holds, Drain Charge, and ki-blocking. I on the other hand am arguing for a style that on top of that stuff also incorporates hits and energy attacks. (Not ones so powerful or dense that they kill the enemy, just ones that hurt, injure, and weaken them.)
Now that I think of it, Kaio-Ken is probably based on similar principles, and that's how Goku managed to get it so easily and even improve it to be always on as he did.
He never had Kaioken always on. What he did was frequently turn it on and off repeatedly in very short bursts throughout battles, but he didn't have it continuously on.
It's similar enough to Ki that they can do all the usual stuff, and I don't recall it ever being explicitly stated that the Androids can't increase their power level by training.
He never had Kaioken always on. What he did was frequently turn it on and off repeatedly in very short bursts throughout battles, but he didn't have it continuously on.
I seem to remember you arguing that when Goku talked about "using his power in bursts" to Ginyu he was talking about higher levels of Kaio-Ken than he was using to get his power level up to 180k. Which would require the level of Kaio-ken he was using there to be not in bursts.
Regardless, neither of those objections you bring up detract from my main thesis of a ki enhancement skill that multiplies base power.
I seem to remember you arguing that when Goku talked about "using his power in bursts" to Ginyu he was talking about higher levels of Kaio-Ken than he was using to get his power level up to 180k. Which would require the level of Kaio-ken he was using there to be not in bursts.
The Kaioken he used to go up to 180k wasn't a short burst, so what? He was only in 180k for a few seconds to show off his ability to go high, it's not like he was continuously like that. The red aura shows up during the specific time when he went Kaioken to reach 180k and it only lasted for a few seconds.
EDIT: Maybe the Ultra Divine Water is responsible for Ginyu not gaining access to all of Goku's power?
While there is much good to be said for the BOD PL system, it has one major flaw. That flaw is the power level limits. Because while a raw ki quantity makes sense to be limited, that isn't what PL actually is. We know from when Ginyu swapped bodies with Goku that skill in ki use can multiply effective power level tremendously. Ginyu estimated Goku's pre-Kaioken PL at 85k, yet when in Goku's body was only able to achieve 23k. This is a difference of more than x3 that can only be accounted for by the difference in skill level between Ginyu and Goku.
This goes counter to BOD presumption of a hard cap of 15mil pre-SSJ.
I would speculate therefore, that the Garenhuld exiles has considerably less developed Ki Theory than was available to the Z Fighters due to Mutaito/Kami/King Kai. This makes a certain degree of sense, considering the circumstances of the exile. It also opens the possiblity that the unlimited Ki potential of humans is more a skill thing from the Mutaito derived Ki Theory, that has since been lost to the exiles.
This means also that if Krillin trained 18, she could have significantly more power now than she did in the show/manga, and if we came into contact with her she could revolutionize the Garenhuld Saiyan understanding of Ki, and allow Saiyans both SSJ and Base to break the cap.
Incidentally, this observation allows Vegeta to be more powerful than Goku even as Goku is superior to him, because while Vegeta has more Raw Power, Goku's skill lets him surpass him. Kind of exactly like when Goku went Kaio Ken x3 to kick Vegeta's ass.
Now that I think of it, Kaio-Ken is probably based on similar principles, and that's how Goku managed to get it so easily and even improve it to be always on as he did. Actually if that's the case, then it might be possible to reverse engineer this from the Kaio-Ken, since the Exiles do know it.
Edit: A Ki Enhancement Skill multiplier to power level would explain how Krillin continued to improve and get stronger after Namek.
Or, to be serious, I figured that it was going to come up and considered it in advance.
Dealing with the issue of the power level cap was a significant problem, considering all the points you made above. It does seem to run counter to what the canon establishes about the Z Fighters' understanding of ki and power levels. I had to consider a number of things, both about saiyans and the concept of power levels in general, before coming to a conclusion. In no particular order, and just from what I can remember off-hand, I took into account:
The incident with Ginyu you mentioned above;
the fight with Raditz;
the fight with Vegeta;
the fight with Freeza;
the power levels and rate of improvement thereof of pre-Earth saiyans;
the power levels and rate of improvement thereof of post-Earth saiyans;
the function of the Super Saiyan transformation in general;
general theories on the nature of ki itself;
and some other shit I can't presently be arsed to remember for what is ultimately a list for the purposes of being a visually impressive list to demonstrate how terribly clever I am.
I could go through my whole thought process on this. And, for those who care to see it, shall presently do so:
In as short a form as I can manage: Old saiyans had crap ki use theory and were weak as shit compared to later saiyans. They undoubtedly trained strength, however, even if it wasn't very "martial artsy" (i.e., sparring, weight lifting).
Wider galaxy is the same, saiyans aren't special.
Freeza is stupidly powerful due to mutations (comments made suggest the Ginyus and indeed all exceptionally powerful aliens are).
Goku is a saiyan, but by using methods of training and an understanding of ki based primarily in Earth's martial arts was able to improve swiftly enough to utterly eclipse ancient saiyan society's understanding of power levels in single-digit years once he was aware of the scale he was working on.
Primary distinction between post-Earth ki users and wider-galaxy ki users is methods of training and ki use.
Premise One: The methods of ki use taught by Earthling martial artists are the means by which post-Earth saiyans so greatly eclipsed their counterparts.
Ancient saiyans are never shown with training being an explicit goal. They are shown fighting, resting, eating gloating over zenkais, turning into Oozarus, and dying swiftly when faced with superior opponents. They certainly display skill in fighting technique, but demonstrate no understanding of discipline or self-reflection.
Freeza literally never trained as an adult until his refusal to do so caused his death, and the Ginyus are soldiers, not martial artists. They aren't even disciplined as soldiers go (which is hardly insignificant or contemptible in any way, shape, or form, respect soldiers for their abilities at the very least), and Freeza is a lazy bum.
Goku's training emphasized spiritual strength and mental acuity; while he was never an intelligent man, he applied his whole mind to fighting and devoted himself to it mind, body, and soul. Fighting was the object for him, and despite my occasional frustrations with his character he is not known to be the greatest of the Z Fighters for no reason.
Per BOD, widely assorted others, and per my own understanding of the health and optimal functioning of the body, the key to truly being healthy and strong is to train up the body, the mind, and the spirit. In short, be healthy, be sane, be happy. By avoiding physical and mental health issues and freeing oneself from stress, you function optimally and encounter exponentially greater success in literally everything you apply yourself to. That's not speculation, that's scientific fact.
Vegeta and Trunks, lacking Goku's methods of training and his understanding of ki, never unlocked the mastered SSJ form until it was explained to them step-by-step, and both (Trunks having taken Vegeta's lead) were at the time working with wider-galaxy understandings of ki. Notably, the secret was spiritually centering oneself in the form to regulate energy flow, along with the discipline to maintain it for long periods of time and rigorous control of the brutal instincts attached to the form, as opposed to the purely physical forms of improvement Trunks and Vegeta achieved.
Ki is defined as "life energy" so often in Dragon Ball that you'd kill yourself making a drinking game out of it.
Discipline is the key to health in almost all areas of life, most especially spiritual (emotional) as it results in self-regulation and superior stressor avoidance management. Self-reflection is vital to understanding when your mind is either unhealthy or simply unbalanced (i.e., you are insane or suffering from cognitive dissonance). An vital step in therapy is, after all, ensuring that everybody involved is aware that a problem exists.
Premise Two: The distinction between Earthling forms of ki use and those of the wider galaxy is that earthlings recognize and train the spiritual and mental aspects of ki in tandem with the physical.
Both Goku and Vegeta, occasionally over the course of the series, complain of difficulties getting any stronger than they presently are. This is, however, inexact and vague.
More tellingly, Goku, upon emerging from the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, claimed that neither he nor Gohan had anything more to gain from increased training time.
Both Goku and Gohan were capable of re-entering the chamber, though Gohan had slightly less time clocked already.
Goku may be a sucker for a good fight but does not f*ck around when the chance to get stronger is available.
Goku's phrasing was that they wouldn't gain anything more (depending on translation, "much" more) from training, not that they shouldn't train for some other reason.
Premise Three: Something that happened in the HTC convinced Goku that neither he nor Gohan could at all benefit from further time in the HTC despite having about a year in which to improve as much as they damn well liked...or could.
These premises show a few things: first, you're absolutely correct that the Z Fighters had something the wider galaxy lacked; they were martial artists, with the exact meaning that that term implies. But it also shows that, canonically, there is something that limits saiyans from unlocking their full power. Goku, just blowing off a year of productive training? Pull the other one, it's got bells on. The man came off what should by any rights have been a career-ending injury and threw himself into 100x gravity, he doesn't know the meaning of slowing down. The only reason he didn't train is because neither he nor Gohan could.
This is actually the author of BOD's reasoning for power caps, and it's one that makes sense to me. Additionally, nobody who isn't at least part-saiyan complains of such a cap, save for right at the beginning, while they train with Roshi. That is, I theorize, them running up against their physical limits before unlocking their knowledge of ki, which opens up whole new dimensions for physical improvement in the first place, and then improving the mental and spiritual aspects attendant to it. This is also why I make caps a (largely) species-specific thing; the human Z Fighters and Piccolo never complained of caps, they just improved slower, despite knowing exactly the same things as Goku.
But caps are indisputably, in this system and I'd argue in canon, a thing for saiyans. All that remains is to assign them numbers. Which, let's be honest, is fairly arbitrary, which is why I've made it clear previously that they're not up for debate; that argument would be pointlessly frustrating for a purely aesthetic change. But having the numbers is an easy benchmark.
Thus, the Garenhulders haven't lost the knowledge of ki control; it's one of the damn few things they haven't lost, because everybody was aware of it and made sure it was passed down. They simply have to contend with caps -- like Goku before them. And an alien like Ginyu would be unable to use one to their fullest potential because he's an unsubtle, undisciplined brute, an insult to soldiers and martial artists all over creation, and a truly pathetic and cruel-minded individual. But used to their full potential, even the lowest average saiyan of Garenhuld (1 million is the lowest part of the peak of the bell curve) strides among the top 1% of creation.
My ultimate conclusion is that the Z Fighters did have a superior understanding of ki to the galaxy at large, and by uniting all of the disparate elements of its use, were capable of getting far more power out of what their bodies were producing "at rest." This is the secret to suppressing one's power level and even to having one that isn't at max all the time; when you're not in fighting mode, it's just your physical ki being radiated. As described above, this is due to their mastery of all three proposed elements of ki use: the physical, mental, and spiritual. Mastering this trinity allowed the Z Fighters to tap into the vast well of strength available to them in its entirety, something the galaxy at large never managed. The wider galaxy simply fielded mutants -- beings who had a naturally high physical aspect of ki. They were in essence crippling themselves due to having an infant's understanding of martial arts.
But ultimately, this is no reason to discard the power level cap. Goku and Vegeta express their frustration with not being able to get stronger throughout the series, despite both being aware of this trinity, so there is clearly something holding them back. More tellingly, Goku said that neither he nor Gohan had anything more to gain from additional time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber despite having easy room for a year to go, and if caps don't exist, then he was telling a blatant lie for no damn reason. My theory, derived from BOD as I've mentioned, is that the saiyans as a race are built for transformations, and that's simply the mechanism by which they access their greatest reserves of ki. On one hand, this gives them a way to quickly and reliably ascend to limits of power that other races need to struggle or find very esoteric means to achieve (for instance, the god transformation). On the other, if they don't truly need that power, they are forever closed off from it.
Concisely, my theory is that saiyans have access to ki that is based primarily in transformation. The cap is a function of the physical aspect of ki; while the spiritual and mental aspects allow them to access the full reserve of their power, they ultimately are limited by their bodies...and need to change their bodies in order to overcome that, a limitation that is largely unique to them.
In closing, good idea, Aranfan, but ultimately not one that I'll be adopting here. The Ki Enhancement skill is just what you do, passively, whenever you power up to max.
We're not arguing over a lethal versus non-lethal style, we're arguing over a hurting versus non-hurting style. Basically, Aranfan is arguing for a style where we don't hit anyone - we just use disabling holds, Drain Charge, and ki-blocking. I on the other hand am arguing for a style that on top of that stuff also incorporates hits and energy attacks. (Not ones so powerful or dense that they kill the enemy, just ones that hurt, injure, and weaken them.)
I've been meaning to ask this, but why is this only available to Seers? Roshi had access to ki-blocking so shouldn't it be in Roshi Style?
Androids can't increase their power level by training and androids don't use life energy (ki) in any case.
He never had Kaioken always on. What he did was frequently turn it on and off repeatedly in very short bursts throughout battles, but he didn't have it continuously on.
I caught that. But ultimately, if you hit or shoot somebody there's nowhere perfectly safe to do it. Every punch carries a risk of lethal complications, no matter how small. Energy blasts, like bullets, carry an even bigger risk, which is why gun users are instructed to never point a gun at somebody they're not perfectly willing to kill, and part of the reason why martial arts and self-defense courses teach that evasion or non-engagement are the preferable first steps of a fight. I should perhaps have clarified that, on reflection.
You can do it without, but everybody's body is different. Some people just have nerves in different spots than others (by a crucial few millimeters only, granted, but that's enough), and you need precision for this kind of technique. It's cool in A:TLA when Tai Lee does it (which is why I included it here), but unless you're a Seer and can actually see your targets, you're basically just guessing, which is...suboptimal.
Androids, certainly they can't. Cyborgs, though, like 17 and 18? Yup. They still have bits, unlike 16. 18 had physical proof of hers and everything. (Not sorry) It's just that given their origins, they tend to rely on their tech to the point where the organic parts are just insignificant. So in this quest, androids (cyborgs) certainly can train. They just...didn't.
You can do it without, but everybody's body is different. Some people just have nerves in different spots than others (by a crucial few millimeters only, granted, but that's enough), and you need precision for this kind of technique. It's cool in A:TLA when Tai Lee does it (which is why I included it here), but unless you're a Seer and can actually see your targets, you're basically just guessing, which is...suboptimal.
Ancient saiyans are never shown with training being an explicit goal. They are shown fighting, resting, eating gloating over zenkais, turning into Oozarus, and dying swiftly when faced with superior opponents.
Just a few things, all adding up. Some parts of Karen's reactions that don't match up perfectly with her personality. The bit where she carries a boy at or above her age to a nurse's office, in public, at a dead run, without being out of breath. Even if Karen was just walking, she's been taught better than to show off that much. She showed off in sparring because people disassociate that from day-to-day stuff, in part, and because she was in a private location, but in the middle of school is implausible. The bit where the nurse lets a student treat another student's injuries (my sister is a medical student and literally did a spit-take when she read that; it is evidently a very bad idea, legally). Still a good omake, just not a canon one.
Because it's an anime. I'm discounting it as canon because even I have my limits on what I'll accept "because Toriyama."
Yes, in that he was sparring. They still learned how to fight, after all. They just didn't make a lifestyle of training like Goku was shown to.
Just a few things, all adding up. Some parts of Karen's reactions that don't match up perfectly with her personality. The bit where she carries a boy at or above her age to a nurse's office, in public, at a dead run, without being out of breath. Even if Karen was just walking, she's been taught better than to show off that much. She showed off in sparring because people disassociate that from day-to-day stuff, in part, and because she was in a private location, but in the middle of school is implausible. The bit where the nurse lets a student treat another student's injuries (my sister is a medical student and literally did a spit-take when she read that; it is evidently a very bad idea, legally). Still a good omake, just not a canon one.
This isn't completely true. When Guru offered to unlock Krillin's potential, he expressed doubt that he could since he had thought he reached his limit. Doesn't really prove that Earthlings don't have caps, just wanted to point out that they thought they did, at least until that point.
As for your premises on ki, it all seems rather theoretical, like you came up with it yourself. Kudos for piecing all that evidence together into a coherent whole, but I feel it was unnecessary. Akira Toriyama gave word of god that ki is made up of, according to the wiki, Genki (lit. "Energy"), Yūki (lit. "Courage") and Shōki (lit. "Mind"). That's where I got the composition of ki I mentioned in my Life Surrounds omake.
