- Location
- Australia
What would it be if not that?
Dragon Ball: After the End
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Analysis?
- Location
- Australia
The Frieza Style Analysis counted as an omake. Not even sure you could call this one an analysis since it's coming up with factions.
@PoptartProdigy : Are these two secretly the same question?
This does seem strange. Even spread across a few hundred thousand people, a single pair of organizations nobody else knows even exist and which are responsible for all technology above medieval while enjoying hundreds of years of collaborative investments should own the planet. They might not want to advertise that fact, but they'd want the power that comes with that wealth to help secure the masquerade and it should be easy enough to make full-time work an optional choice more based on the strategic concerns of the clans than keeping up appearances. The situation should be less Bruce Banner and more Bruce Wayne.
- Location
- Australia
To replace our ambition for a Pacifist Style, I've come up with one that plays to Kakara's greatest strength, doesn't rely on her greatest weakness, and is modelled after her successful fight/training session with her father where she broke his momentum and won after preventing him from getting it back.
Kakara Style: A balanced form, but not in the same vein as Tien Style and Demon Style. This style focuses on reading the opponent's move and maintaining a defensive posture until an opening can be sensed, at which point focus is immediately moved to an offensive stance to cut the enemy's momentum and gain its own, then shifting quickly back to defensive when momentum is lost or about to be lost. The style is very effective against offensive styles and less so against defensive ones. The style places an extremely high emphasis on Korin's lessons on combat precognition to identify openings and borrows from Trunks Style to exploit those openings. A downside is that the attacks with dense concentrations of ki were not incorporated into the style due to the style's creator's distaste for their lethal effects. Involved techniques: Ki Sense [Extreme]. Penalised techniques: All ki attacks that involve the dense concentration of power.
Recommended styles to learn before creating Kakara Style: Tien Style, Trunks Style, Goku/Gohan Style
Kakara Style: A balanced form, but not in the same vein as Tien Style and Demon Style. This style focuses on reading the opponent's move and maintaining a defensive posture until an opening can be sensed, at which point focus is immediately moved to an offensive stance to cut the enemy's momentum and gain its own, then shifting quickly back to defensive when momentum is lost or about to be lost. The style is very effective against offensive styles and less so against defensive ones. The style places an extremely high emphasis on Korin's lessons on combat precognition to identify openings and borrows from Trunks Style to exploit those openings. A downside is that the attacks with dense concentrations of ki were not incorporated into the style due to the style's creator's distaste for their lethal effects. Involved techniques: Ki Sense [Extreme]. Penalised techniques: All ki attacks that involve the dense concentration of power.
Recommended styles to learn before creating Kakara Style: Tien Style, Trunks Style, Goku/Gohan Style
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- Location
- Australia
Minimising harm to our enemy means we'd be refusing in-combat opportunities to weaken them and make them less of a threat just because it would hurt them. A more traditional fighting style allows for opportunities to lower the threat level of an opponent to be taken as they come rather than passed by in the case of those that require hurting the opponent.
Martial pacifism means that fighting shouldn't be done unless necessary, but that it should be carried out in the greatest efficiency when it is. A Pacifist Style that can't hurt the enemy may with practice be effective as a fighting style, but it won't be optimal.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I feel this is a fundamental misunderstanding. I didn't say "to our enemy", I said, "To all invovled". I want a style that specializes in holds to incapacitate, ki draining if we can figure out the trick of it, that kind of stuff. I don't want us to be a bystander, I just want to be like the main character of Undertale in Pacifist Runs, or Adam Jensen or such. I want us to be the queen of non-lethal takedowns and to have a style that reflects that.
I don't think making a pacifist fighting style is going to make us a hippy "no hurting anyone ever" type pacifist.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
@PoptartProdigy
Would a pacifist style in the vein we've been talking about previously be as sup-optimal as @Andres110 is making it out to be?
Would a pacifist style in the vein we've been talking about previously be as sup-optimal as @Andres110 is making it out to be?
- Location
- Australia
"To all involved" very much includes "to our enemy" which is the problem. Sometimes we have to hurt our enemy to avoid being hurt. Sometimes we have to hurt our enemy not to avoid being hurt, but because it brings them that much closer to being beaten.
I don't know about Undertale, but I know that Adam Jensen's melee attack hurt people by knocking them out.
Every style can be put to non-lethal use so long as the more explicitly deadly techniques aren't used. If we want a style that lets us beat people without killing them, any style will do.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I think I've finally pinpointed what rubs me so wrong about @Andres110 's proposal to make a more traditional style: Why should we bother?
The Pacifist Style plan is a massive time sink, I envisioned it to take many turns and to be a culmination of Kakara's arc to reform Saiyan Society: taking all the styles which embody the violent tendencies of the Saiyans and forging something peaceful out of them that can nevertheless defend peace.
If we we're just going to add another combat style, why should we take the time? The Saiyans already have a very effective mix of styles availaible and we wouldn't be adding anything radically new. We should just learn one style up to mastery, maybe a second to practitioner to cover weaknesses, and then be done with it. It would certainly free up a lot more actions.
The Pacifist Style plan is a massive time sink, I envisioned it to take many turns and to be a culmination of Kakara's arc to reform Saiyan Society: taking all the styles which embody the violent tendencies of the Saiyans and forging something peaceful out of them that can nevertheless defend peace.
If we we're just going to add another combat style, why should we take the time? The Saiyans already have a very effective mix of styles availaible and we wouldn't be adding anything radically new. We should just learn one style up to mastery, maybe a second to practitioner to cover weaknesses, and then be done with it. It would certainly free up a lot more actions.
- Location
- Australia
Forging a peaceful thing should never be the objective when creating a martial art. If the gloves are down and it's time to fight, it's always better to break out whatever style is most effective. A peaceful fighting style is the equivalent of a ceremonial sword - nice to look at and not useless as a weapon, but an alternative more suited to the task it claims to be good at is better.
Simple - to synergise well with Kakara's abilities and thus make her a better fighter. Style creation isn't just for changing Saiyan society or earning prestige, you know.
If we want to change Saiyan society, we should advocate that violence should be used only when it's necessary. That's rather different from the message that a Pacifist Style sends which is "be as non-violent as possible, even when being violent".
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
We don't even need to really do that. Unless I miss my guess, techniques that aren't penalized can be used with a style no problem, even if they aren't involved techniques. So if we learn a generalist style like Tien or Piccolo then we would synergize just fine. It would mostly be a waste of action for marginal improvement once we have a style mastered.
And @PoptartProdigy hasn't yet said you're correct about Pacifist Style being shit.
- Location
- Australia
Sure they can be used without problem, but styles with involved techniques reward having a high level of skill in those areas while styles that simply don't penalise them don't.
Didn't say it was shit, just sub-optimal.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I still say it would be a marginal improvement at best. Poptart said mastery of Goku Style would allow someone to have a chance at defeating an opponent with a 20% power level lead on them, and the Krillin Style was the best at punching above it's weight. Just from how DBZ works I don't see any usual style managing to get any notable improvement on that front.
This is SV, saying something is shit is less of a condemnation of it than saying it's sub-optimal here.
- Location
- Australia
So I've been thinking...
Sound hurts. Normally it doesn't, but if you manage to get enough of it it does. But you know what hurts more? Energy attacks, by an unfathomably wide margin. It's way way way way more efficient to hurt someone by channelling ki into an energy attack than by channelling it into sound. Despite the inherent inefficiency of using sound to do anything, so much of it was created by Majin Buu (and later Gotenks) that the inefficiency didn't matter when it came to ripping a hole between dimensions.
My idea is that instead of using an absolutely monstrous amount of ki to break a hole through dimensions through the inefficient medium of sound, we use a much more moderate amount of ki to more precisely and specifically do the same in a much less crude and more efficient manner. A developed and specialised technique for entering the dimension of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.
It won't be easy, but with our Exceptional Ki Control, the overwhelming yet sustainable power of Golden Ape, and a few years of trial and error, I think we can do it. The advantages of gaining access to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber would be enormous.
Sound hurts. Normally it doesn't, but if you manage to get enough of it it does. But you know what hurts more? Energy attacks, by an unfathomably wide margin. It's way way way way more efficient to hurt someone by channelling ki into an energy attack than by channelling it into sound. Despite the inherent inefficiency of using sound to do anything, so much of it was created by Majin Buu (and later Gotenks) that the inefficiency didn't matter when it came to ripping a hole between dimensions.
My idea is that instead of using an absolutely monstrous amount of ki to break a hole through dimensions through the inefficient medium of sound, we use a much more moderate amount of ki to more precisely and specifically do the same in a much less crude and more efficient manner. A developed and specialised technique for entering the dimension of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.
It won't be easy, but with our Exceptional Ki Control, the overwhelming yet sustainable power of Golden Ape, and a few years of trial and error, I think we can do it. The advantages of gaining access to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber would be enormous.
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Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Aren't we deliberately trying not to get too powerful in order to avoid 'starting the countdown' so to speak?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
General cookie announcement, in fact.
For their work on styles, a cookie each to Andres110 and Bommelom.
For omakes, a cookie to Andres110. Not canon for a variety of reasons, but still interesting and I'll be borrowing some of that.
Aranfan, yours is non-canon as well because I already have a concrete history of the time frame in question.
Also, I'm not giving threadmarks to the non-canon omakes anymore because...well, I don't want to bog down and confuse new readers with what is and isn't canon. It's fairly easy to overlook the "non-canon" notice in the threadmark, after all.
They're not the same question.
You would think that, and some certainly have ambitions that way, but on a societal scale they've never tried.
Because of the accountants.
Their existence is already an audit away from being blown wide open. They have a fun enough time bribing people already to keep that from happening. They don't want to make themselves bigger targets.
Yes and no.
By definition, any pacifist style will be less effective than a style that accounts for lethal takedowns, all things being equal. This is why people are said to be holding back until they're fighting with no consideration as to the lethality of their moves -- that consideration is a restraint that disallows certain actions.
However, that can be gotten around. You're a Seer, and thus have access to ki blocking techniques and a variety of other effects that can boost your combat effectiveness. You can compensate for an always nonlethal style with those techniques.
But, the resulting style will still be less effective than a normal style using the same techniques. Nobody has created such a style, and the question is therefore academic, but it is nonetheless the case. It won't by any means cripple you, but it can complicate an easy fight or make a hard one harder. It won't always, but a skilled opponent can exploit an unwillingness to kill.
This of course assumes that effectiveness translates to winning the fight. It doesn't, always. Whether or not you want a pacifist style is not about how proficient you want to be, it's about solidifying how much Kakara values life.
In the case of anything not a pacifist style, the answer is, "only up to a point."
Pacifism is difficult. Worthwhile? Its adherents say so, yes. But difficult. It restricts your options. So if you want Kakara to value life absolutely, that means sacrificing combat-effectiveness. If you're comfortable with her saying that life is less valuable than certain objectives, then go for a lethal style.
At the end of the day, this is a very difficult question for even adults, and it's what the choice you're debating boils down to.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Anyway. I was sleeping when it hit, but the vote definitely closed. Vote Closed.
We have a unanimous win for the following:
Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] Continue talking to Fennella.
-[X] About herself, then about us. Let's get to know each other.
-[X] Don't forget to exchange phone numbers at the end so we can keep in touch.
No. of votes: 6
Macros, Andres110, KaintukeeBob, Nathaniel Wolff, pianoman, Aranfan
A part of me wonders if people simply forgot to vote. :lol But regardless, this'll do. Update incoming.
We have a unanimous win for the following:
Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] Continue talking to Fennella.
-[X] About herself, then about us. Let's get to know each other.
-[X] Don't forget to exchange phone numbers at the end so we can keep in touch.
No. of votes: 6
Macros, Andres110, KaintukeeBob, Nathaniel Wolff, pianoman, Aranfan
A part of me wonders if people simply forgot to vote. :lol But regardless, this'll do. Update incoming.
Macros
omnisciently vague councilman
- Location
- Dirac Sea
It just means the answer was so easy they didn't even bother!
The funny thing is that this isn't first time the idea of combat accountants had crossed my mind. It reminds me of a 40K quest where we had to tap the Ultramarines to run an audit on the Administratum after we discovered that their internal bickering had gotten so bad that factions had started misfiling titans. Literally. In filing cabinets.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
@PoptartProdigy
The cookie jar has not been updated, and there is no list of learn able styles on the front page.
The cookie jar has not been updated, and there is no list of learn able styles on the front page.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Haven't had time for styles, but the jar is current.
Would Jaffur's style be on the list of learnable styles or not?