Dragon Ball: After the End
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
We already convinced them that killing her would be a bad idea for political reasons.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Out of hand, at least. Kakara is realistic enough to admit that he's almost certainly planning on administering a trial as soon as practical.
AProcrastinator
You can Certainly Try
- Location
- Getting Somewhere
- Pronouns
- She/Hers
You know what? I can get behind a trial. It's a fair way to punish her for her crimes that doesn't require us to love her, hate her, befriend her, or otherwise interact with her. At this point, washing our hands of Dandeer entirely is the best thing for both of us.
...do not expect me to continue making sensible statements
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Personally, if I were him, I would make her aware that both he and his brother loathe her with every fiber of their beings, and then let her live with that.
But I guess he's a little more merciful than me.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
I wouldn't exactly call a trial fair when the judge is also the victim. I think sheshould go to trial, at least to make it look legitimate and I would love it if it were a fair one... but I doubt it will be
Really?
Gold Man Genocide tortured an entire clan to death including women and children, and broke his son in ways that are still fucking saiyan society today. He's STILL in a position of authority. Dazarel might be a maladjusted teenager but he still by his own reckoning killed millions or billions of sapients. We sealed him and are attempting to resocialize him on ethical and pragmatic grounds.
Vegeta our ancestor was a mass murderer in the army of a genocidal despot. Goku did the same thing for him.
In comparison, Dandeer has sealed away her abuser and her son's powers in the deluded belief that it was fucking them over mentally.
She's not engaging in physical abuse against her former abuser or her son, and what emotional abuse has gone Jaron's way is more a factor of her overprotectiveness than it is malice.
And that's besides all the pressures she's under, being expelled from her church, and having to play Regent for a restive clan despite near universal dislike and disrespect. Her husband wasn't liked either, but he was respected despite being a public child-abuser.
By saiyan standards she's practically saintly.
(Have I mentioned that Saiyan society is kind of fucked up? Cause it is).
Do not mistake IC dislike for the character as an objective assessment of their nature.
IRL there's a good chance that no jury would convict Dandeer of anything because battered woman syndrome.
And from a purely pragmatic PoV, the woman is a Master Sorcerer. We don't have that many of them to spare, and these are dangerous times as it is, when we need all resources we can get. There's a reason we haven't been discreetly considering poisoning Jaffur's father in his sleep OOC, despite the near-certainty of his breaking his Seal/having it broken at the most inconvenient time possible.
EDIT
Volunteer as her advocate, then.
Because if people are going to allege she failed her sons, it's appropriate to point out that saiyan society failed HER. Rather than to simply scapegoat her and walk away.
Might help prevent issues like this in the future.
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AProcrastinator
You can Certainly Try
- Location
- Getting Somewhere
- Pronouns
- She/Hers
Dandeer: above Saiyan society's lawful judgement except for Lords, Ladies, and potentially Scions
Jaffur and Vegeta: victims
Kakara: Actively fought against the Sealing
Berra: Actively helped with the Sealing
We're all outta impartiality this week, I'm afraid. Check back next time there's a major political atrocity of some kind, though - we'll see if we can hold some for ya.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I'm actually pretty sure that Kakara could serve as an advocate to her. She might loathe Dandeer with the passion of a thousand suns in return, but neither is she willing to let her die by inaction.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
Because we literally are completely morally opposed to de-personing her, and we don't want to leave an enemy alive if we can help it.
Since we can't un-alive her, we must un-enemy her.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Once we unseal Jaffur they are going to put her on trail. Whatever the results I don't think she will be a threat anymore.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Hell, I'd make that argument right now if she wasn't in the way of freeing Jaffur. After the fact, I'm absolutely down for arguing she should be left alive but in seclusion, if only because her capacity to do damage will have been completely curtailed since it's almost entirely political - Master sorcerers don't grow on trees, and much as he rightly despises her if he ordered her to work on something as the new Lord I doubt she'd have it in her to deny what little contact they'll have left.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
I wonder if Kakara will be able to morally justify capturing Dandeer (when she inevitably flees) when she knows this capture will lead directly to her death (by execution after trial, of course).
I think Kakara will be able to separate the events in her mind (capture Dandeer from cause Dandeer's death) but I'm not certain of that.
If she's morally opposed to anyone dying, would she extend that to capturing a criminal when she knew they'd be sentenced to death? Especially if they said something like, "If you take me back, you are killing me."?
On what charges?
Are there actual legal grounds for this assertion besides might makes right?
Vegeta/Valentine, who regularly beat his wife and abused his son, is alive.
And I will point out that Dandeer is kinda important to the Sealed Valentine's life, and that killing the man's wife might not turn out well.
EllenTenshima
Tengu Mask
How do you know this? When was it confirmed or implied?
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Basically this; @uju32 said this better than I could have.
Almost certainly.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
Well...Jaffur and Jaron both hate her and have higher power levels than her.
At least one of them, post-Seal, is going to be part of the judgement process against her. Do you see them pushing for anything other than death that we could support? I doubt either would push for 'tortured for years', but it's on the table...
And I don't think they would settle for 'imprisoned for a while', do you?
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I also just noticed that our overall Combat superskill's level of Talented has an effect on training, not just the levels of the subsuperskills Hand-To-Hand and Ki Manipulation, so we're probably going to want to take Team Fighting at some point in the next few years. Not this year though - if we have the spare action, I'll eat my hat. Again.
Also, stacking prefixes on words like "subsuperskill" is fun.
Also, stacking prefixes on words like "subsuperskill" is fun.
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EllenTenshima
Tengu Mask
Okay? This doesn't make her death by trial anywhere near a certainty. In fact, Jaffur/Jaron may well be the only ones in a panel of judges that would actively push for her death, for reasons other people have already articulated, which would make the chances of an execution laughable.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Bear in mind that the panel, in this case, would consist of Yammar, Jaffur, and maybe Jaron and Vegeta (if Vegeta were released for the occasion, and if Jaron was considered a relevant individual for the case). Does that look like a sympathetic jury to your eyes?
This of course assumes that Jaffur doesn't wind up simply assuming the Lordship with Yammar's support, thereby gaining uncontested and absolute authority over Dandeer's fate.
- Location
- Wherever two rivers long to be one
Since people have been talking about power-ups again, what about trying to use Ultimate Super Saiyan more effectively? While it's already a great artillery form, we can mitigate the slowness of the form with, say, Instant Transmission? Berra could actually be really good at this, since he already uses it as "an integral part of his style's maneuvering". Alternately, box in a target with something like Hellzone Grenade so they have trouble dodging without getting hit by something. Maybe invest in Telekinesis to try and rip Daz off, slow people down enough to hit? Something to think about when we've finished hitting the cap on Mind Delve and studied up on magic.
Actually, about that last part... it occurs to me that for all we talk about Dandeer, we rarely have Kakara actually keep tabs on her. Considering we've been systematically pushing all her triggers, taking away more and more from her, and are now basically a messiah in the eyes of our people while she's excommunicated... well, maybe it wouldn't hurt to sit down with Dandelor and spitball about what she could do if she wants to hurt us discreetly. Not just learning about magic vaguely, but specifically what a Master Sorceress with her skillset could be likely to go for, as best as Dandelor can figure. Because I have a hard time believing she doesn't have something cooking, after becoming the person she hates most.
Actually, about that last part... it occurs to me that for all we talk about Dandeer, we rarely have Kakara actually keep tabs on her. Considering we've been systematically pushing all her triggers, taking away more and more from her, and are now basically a messiah in the eyes of our people while she's excommunicated... well, maybe it wouldn't hurt to sit down with Dandelor and spitball about what she could do if she wants to hurt us discreetly. Not just learning about magic vaguely, but specifically what a Master Sorceress with her skillset could be likely to go for, as best as Dandelor can figure. Because I have a hard time believing she doesn't have something cooking, after becoming the person she hates most.
EllenTenshima
Tengu Mask
Only those 4? I was lead to believe that a panel would have Gokun representatives as well.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
Why? It's a matter for Clan Vegeta, not Clan Goku. They are, effectively, different sovereign nations who operate under the same joint government.
It's like saying that you'd expect there to be someone from Virginia's judiciary sitting at the bench for the trial of Kentucky's governor.
EllenTenshima
Tengu Mask
Dunno, because religious reasons, heresy, etc etc. The level in which the trial would be handled wasn't exactly made certain.
Yes, it is a matter for clan Vegeta. Whether it would be handled as a matter of clan Vegeta alone, is another thing, since it is also clearly a matter for their entire race.
Consider that Dandeer's actions threaten to undermine the very tenets on which their society and religion is built upon.
Consider too, that clan Goku is already irrevocably involved in the entire situation, due to the actions of both Berra and Kakara during the sealing. Even more so since, in such a situation, Kakara would have had succeeded in the unsealing. Denying clan Goku at that point would be... surprising.
Yes, there are arguments for the trial being handled solely by clan Vegeta. There are also arguments for it not being the case.