We don't have any particular skill at ki healing, we'd have to convince him to accept it, and it'll be suspicious if anything happens. Just give him some of her energy. He'll take it without resistance. It'll weaken us, but that's a good thing because he's in a really bad way and we want to use her talent for ki reading to make this as close to a perfectly even fight as possible for both our sakes.
Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
[X] "You know what? Fine." Fight Jaffur. It's what he wants.
-[X] x2.0 Give him the Senzu bean first. "I wish to challenge your TRUE power, not this broken wreck."
I can see the way the wind is blowing, but am I the only one who thinks we have a chance to beat this guy at his full strength? He's stronger than us, yes. That said, we have better mobility, we have better temperament, he has a few big, obvious buttons we can hit over and over again to make him lose his cool, and it's always hilarious to solar flare a Saiyan (FREEZA IN THE SHOWER!!!), teleport behind them, and Destructo Dis...er, Kamehameha them. Because we don't want to kill the little psycho and we don't know that technique yet.
-[X] x2.0 Give him the Senzu bean first. "I wish to challenge your TRUE power, not this broken wreck."
I can see the way the wind is blowing, but am I the only one who thinks we have a chance to beat this guy at his full strength? He's stronger than us, yes. That said, we have better mobility, we have better temperament, he has a few big, obvious buttons we can hit over and over again to make him lose his cool, and it's always hilarious to solar flare a Saiyan (FREEZA IN THE SHOWER!!!), teleport behind them, and Destructo Dis...er, Kamehameha them. Because we don't want to kill the little psycho and we don't know that technique yet.
He's stronger because he's obsessed with being the best fighter he possibly can be while she doesn't even like it. He's out here training himself to death despite already being literally as strong as it is possible for him to be with a justification of aiming to even slightly increase his technical skill. He's used to fighting angry because he's out here because fighting is how he deals with his anger. He's honed his technique to the point of unthinking reflex unaffected by his state of mind. His ki blast still astonished her despite her being a natural prodigy at exactly that.
It's pretty safe to say that he's not only much stronger and faster, but also vastly more skilled, and we don't even know what special abilities he has. Teleportation, especially in a confined arena, isn't enough to compensate for that.
Also, the sun usually isn't out at night.
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- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
To be fair, "confined area," here, means an open-air pit that you could lose a few football fields in, although I haven't mentioned that as such. That said, Goku traversed a planet in seconds at a power level of 3 million (you are, by the way, free to speculate as to how an acknowledged slacker hit 12 million, and what kind of training Scions usually get), so the Hall is pretty minuscule, subjectively. Given the continuing discussion here, I'll leave votes open overnight (was planning on it anyway). Keep those arguments coming, folks!
lordchaos99
(I have left SV)
I assumed we did daily training sessions after formal education and practically lived inside a gravity chamber :shrug:
Also, I find it interesting that the limit of a Saiyan is 15,000,000 exactly. That very rarely happens in real life where it lines up like that without rounding.
Water's boiling and freezing are the only 'exact' I can think of in nature and that's because we built the temperature system over those points.
It says something about what a Ki unit is.
To be fair, King Kai invented but did not master the technique. And apparently you can stabilise Kaio-Ken at least for the smaller numbers in combat-time (not sure if you can base-state it like a fully mastered Super Saiyan form)
Just have each point on the track have a seperate track with decreasing Stamina costs and that the stamina cost is multiplied in a SuperSaiyan form.
Ridiculously hard to make combat effective after a certain point, but a good unique way of becoming strong in the midgame
Also, I find it interesting that the limit of a Saiyan is 15,000,000 exactly. That very rarely happens in real life where it lines up like that without rounding.
Water's boiling and freezing are the only 'exact' I can think of in nature and that's because we built the temperature system over those points.
It says something about what a Ki unit is.
To be fair, King Kai invented but did not master the technique. And apparently you can stabilise Kaio-Ken at least for the smaller numbers in combat-time (not sure if you can base-state it like a fully mastered Super Saiyan form)
Just have each point on the track have a seperate track with decreasing Stamina costs and that the stamina cost is multiplied in a SuperSaiyan form.
Ridiculously hard to make combat effective after a certain point, but a good unique way of becoming strong in the midgame
[X] Instant transmit him into intergalactic space. Forge a note saying that he ran away to join the circus. Marry Betarel. Unite the clans. Return to the dragon waiting in Sol and use the second wish he still owes us to resurrect the Z Fighters. Conquer the universe. Conquer the other universe.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
I still argue that his skill may exceed our own, but we can absolutely beat him. Within the area we will be combating, we will have superior mobility (Yes, speed is wonderful, but people who are flying will have to turn and take physics at least somewhat into account. Teleporters don't.).
It will be easy to push his buttons and make him stop thinking tactically. He has the bigger hammer, and he's been taught that he's flat-out better than we are. When we piss him off, he's going to start using very basic strategy - fly straight at us and crush us, or fire big energy attacks. We can taunt him and evade him, sting him on occasion with a small blast, and wait for a moment to strike.
@PoptartProdigy: Are Saiyans still vulnerable when their tails are grabbed? I know that some Saiyans weren't on DBZ, but I don't know about partial saiyans.
It will be easy to push his buttons and make him stop thinking tactically. He has the bigger hammer, and he's been taught that he's flat-out better than we are. When we piss him off, he's going to start using very basic strategy - fly straight at us and crush us, or fire big energy attacks. We can taunt him and evade him, sting him on occasion with a small blast, and wait for a moment to strike.
@PoptartProdigy: Are Saiyans still vulnerable when their tails are grabbed? I know that some Saiyans weren't on DBZ, but I don't know about partial saiyans.
I'm not the one who proposed beating him by fighting smart and using instant transmission to close the gap, just the one who figured out a way it might actually work.
What makes you think he doesn't have comparable special abilities?
Instant transmission has never been spammed to defeat a stronger, faster, more skilled, better opponent in such a fashion. People died because it wasn't. All indications are that it has a very narrow tactical utility against unsuspecting foes (and he almost certainly knows that she is capable of it considering how casually she used it while playing), not that it can serve as a universal trump card.
Again, he's used to fighting angry. For all his rage and overconfidence Vegeta was clever. Much moreso than Goku, actually. Kakara is the one being goaded into this fight in the first place, not Jaffur.
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- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
'to close the gap'? What the hell? No. You don't 'close the gap' and that isn't what I'm suggesting. He'd destroy us in hand-to-hand, despite our not-insignificant talent at it. We can use I.T. to keep the range open and maneuver to spots where we can strike him, using a hit-and-move strategy.
I'm sure he does. So what?
He's probably never fought someone faster than him (which teleportation will make us, effectively) - he's literally the strongest and fastest that anyone but his father (or ours) can be. We can present him with a situation he hasn't prepared against, which will go a decent way towards evening the odds.
He's used to fighting angry, yes. He's probably NOT used to fighting enraged. There's a difference. Besides, he'll expect that we won't be able to put up much of a fight against him, which means he's likely to try to toy with us at the start. Essentially, the fight will have some tactical similarity to Goku vs. Cell - Goku HAD the strength to destroy Cell easily, but he showboated and let himself get worn down, until he was no longer able to beat Cell. He'd been intending for Gohan to step in, but his arrogance and the way he allowed the slower, weaker, less skilled opponent to try to outlast him ended up getting him (and King Kai, and Gregory, etc) killed.
I'm not saying we will effortlessly beat him. What I am saying is that we can use our superior mobility, our superior ki manipulation techniques, and (hopefully) our ability to manipulate him into an enraged, less thoughtful state to even the odds.
You, on the other hand, are espousing the opinion that there's no chance for a lower-powered person to defeat a higher-powered one. If that were true, every fight would end with the two opponents comparing power levels, and the weaker one walking/running away immediately.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
Kakara was astonished at the intensity of his ki blast, so don't bet on an advantage at ki projection. He trains to work through exactly the issues you are planning to poke. He is better in every way. Again, we have never seen IT used to the effectiveness you hope for and it isn't a secret that she has it. This is the worst environment for it anyway. Your plan boils down to, "Hope he decides to be stupid, and never ever lays a single finger on her because IT is useless in a grapple and the moment he grabs hold it's all over."
When somebody is that much stronger, faster, and more skilled and your only trick is a technique never used in the manner you've described despite being desperately needed and it's being used in the worst environment possible, yes, the fight is that hopeless. If we win a full power fight against him it will only be by fiat.
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- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Okay, I don't usually like to step in on player debates, but this is something Kakara knows IC, so I figure I should mention it.
Instant Transmission is exactly what it says, yes. So Kakara does in fact have an unmatchable straightline speed advantage over Jaffur -- the biggest possible advantage, in fact. Nonetheless, that does not constitute an immediate advantage. She still needs to focus on the ki she's using as a guide and her destination -- both of which constitute fairly complex bits of mental math even if she's refined them to the point where she can do it in a second.
Meanwhile, she and Jaffur are fighting in a space a few miles wide at most. Goku could traverse Namek, a planet specifically noted as being much larger than Earth, in seconds at 3 million -- a quarter of Kakara's current strength, and a fifth of Jaffur's. Either one of you can be from one end of this space to the next in fractions of a second you need special equipment to measure.
So, while Kakara can at her current facility keep ahead of Jaffur for an infinite amount of time with Instant Transmission, he can move so fast that from your perspective and on this scale he's basically using Instant Transmission as well, so you won't have any time for anything but. Remember that when Goku first demonstrated Instant Transmission, Vegeta first scorned it as, "Just super speed" -- past a certain point, people move so quickly that the subjective difference is nonexistent. And Jaffur, being a quarter again of your max power above you, is beyond that point by quite some distance.
Plus, if he got annoyed with your tactic, Jaffur is perfectly capable of just flooding the Hall with an energy blast, making it so you have nowhere to run.
I've been trying to make clear that Kakara realizes that the gap between the two of you isn't just decisive -- it's overwhelming. At Jaffur's full power, there's very little you can do to stand up to him. It's possible, but highly unlikely.
This, of course, presumes that you give him the Senzu -- and convince him of it into the bargain. If you just ki-heal him, you're not good enough to get him to full power, and if you don't heal him at all he'd be a pushover. But at full power, the gap is too wide.
There are some things you can get out of that matchup, mind. The zenkai, while not strictly the most efficient ever, would most certainly get you within striking distance of Jaffur. Given his creepy fixation on the issue, it might ease tensions between the two of you. And it would certainly get him hungry for a rematch once you were healed up, at which point it would be a far more even fight.
In short, your vote is certainly viable and I'm not discrediting it, but at your current power level and with your current abilities you stand very little chance of winning that match outright, even if losing offers its own unique and potent benefits.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
[x] "You know what? Fine." Fight Jaffur. It's what he wants.
-[x] x1.5 Try to give him a dose of ki healing -- what little you're capable of, at least. (Communications to convince him to allow it)
Yay healing!
-[x] x1.5 Try to give him a dose of ki healing -- what little you're capable of, at least. (Communications to convince him to allow it)
Yay healing!
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Somehow I completely forgot about this one. Yeah, they are, although you can be trained to tolerate it. You don't know if Jaffur has or hasn't gone to those lengths. You'll get an option later to try.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Would it at least mostly fix his arm, though? And would it perhaps leave the two of us at mostly comparable power levels, thus producing the most inherently even/fair matchup, one that relies on actual skill and execution of said skill rather than sheer power?
Sure but that seems like, at least in a spar, something that would be a cultural taboo.
Like, one step below "start feeling your opponent up and then squeeze" level taboo. Yes you could do it, but people would look down upon that sort of victory, I'd wager.
It's not shanking him in a kidney to win the fight levels of shady but it's in the same ballpark.
And this is ultimately a spar between two Heirs, not a warzone.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Kinda depends. Ki healing is not a particular focus of Saiyans, so while you might turn out to have a nigh-unprecedented gift for the art, you've never really tried. If you don't turn out to be particularly skilled, you'll just stabilize him, raise him up to where he could conceivably challenge you, and nothing else. If you do turn out to be a healing prodigy (which I'll roll for, if you take that option), yeah you could heal the arm.
It's pretty dirty, yeah. Then again, there's sparring, and then there's sparring. Your and Jaffur's respective Fathers, for instance, once had to be forcibly sat down by the previous Lord Vegeta and your grandmother who was, at the time, the Lady Goku, before they tore a hole in the planet right down to the core. So it's not inconceivable.
I mean, you both will be looked at like you're immature brats for taking a spar that far, but worse has happened.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
[X] "You know what? Fine." Fight Jaffur. It's what he wants.
-[X] x2.0 Give him the Senzu bean first. "I wish to challenge your TRUE power, not this broken wreck."
I kinda want to go with this just because it makes us basically willing to fall on our sword here. Expect to lose outright, in character, but doing it for his own damn good.
Also, the hill is still very comfortable!
-[X] x2.0 Give him the Senzu bean first. "I wish to challenge your TRUE power, not this broken wreck."
I kinda want to go with this just because it makes us basically willing to fall on our sword here. Expect to lose outright, in character, but doing it for his own damn good.
Also, the hill is still very comfortable!
King Arthur
The Once and Future King
[X] "You know what? Fine." Fight Jaffur. It's what he wants.
-[X] x2.0 Give him the Senzu bean first. "I wish to challenge your TRUE power, not this broken wreck."
-[X] x2.0 Give him the Senzu bean first. "I wish to challenge your TRUE power, not this broken wreck."
As I said before, if you want to do that that is the "donate ki" option. It's what Goku did for Freiza at the end. It weakens us and strengthens him, and Kakara's talent at ki reading and projection can probably calibrate it to a perfect match. Plus, there's not much he can do to stop her from doing it without just starting the fight.
Ki healing is what Dende can do. It heals much more dramatically without weakening the user, but she doesn't have any training and probably no talent at it. Plus, is suspicious as hell if anything happens, he probably won't appreciate what he perceives as pity, and will quite possibly refuse.
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- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
My theory is that the two are the same branch of the same skill, but what Goku did is the equivalent of throwing a rock, and what Dende did is the equivalent of a trebuchet. After all, Goku managed to keep Freeza from bleeding out from a bisection and a severed arm (for the five seconds Freeza took to try to back-stab him), so there's something to that beyond mere energy. That said, there's a gift and/or a lot of training involved.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Well, you could always assume Freeza has an energy powered regen power. In which case Goku isn't healing him, he's enabling him healing himself.
It's not like we haven't seen self regenerators in DBZ. Piccolo, Majin Buu, Cell...