Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Any votes or thoughts still outstanding? Say, in the next three or so hours?
@PoptartProdigy
I was just looking back at the earlier pages, and noticed something. While the mastered Super Sayain transformation is powerful enough for what it is supposed to be, the initial version of it seems underpowered. If the Kaioken works as advertised and actually multiplies the base power, someone who had fully mastered it up to X20 while having a power level of 12 million (like, say, Kakara could probably have done with her Ki skills if we'd chosen that technique) would actually be more powerful while using it than a transformed Super Saiyan who'd trained up their base as high as possible but hadn't yet mastered the transformation. This... doesn't quite match what we see of the comparison between Super Saiyan and Kaioken in series.
I was just looking back at the earlier pages, and noticed something. While the mastered Super Sayain transformation is powerful enough for what it is supposed to be, the initial version of it seems underpowered. If the Kaioken works as advertised and actually multiplies the base power, someone who had fully mastered it up to X20 while having a power level of 12 million (like, say, Kakara could probably have done with her Ki skills if we'd chosen that technique) would actually be more powerful while using it than a transformed Super Saiyan who'd trained up their base as high as possible but hadn't yet mastered the transformation. This... doesn't quite match what we see of the comparison between Super Saiyan and Kaioken in series.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Best estimates of Goku at the time of his fight with Freeza have him relatively consistently in the low millions (the usual x50 power multiplier for Super Saiyan has him at an even 3 million, which I have little cause or reason to dispute). At that point he used the x20 Kaio-Ken against Freeza, which he could sustain only for a brief beatdown of 50% power Freeza and a single, all-out, Kamehameha, after which he was breathing very heavily and stopped putting up as much of a fight (until he transformed). That would peg him at 60 million, which is still hilariously below even the weakest Super Saiyan. My supposition is that while Kakara could theoretically fire up a x20 Kaio-Ken and hit 240 million, thus being able to trash a basic Super Saiyan and present an immense challenge to the most powerful possible "basic" Super Saiyan, it would absolutely destroy her body due to the power levels involved. After all, while it is still a ratio of 20:1 compared to Goku's, Goku gained 57 million units and Kakara would gain 228 million, which is an immense amount of energy to have running through a body that flat-out isn't designed or prepared for it.
I'm drawing this in part from Dragon Ball: Super, wherein Goku used the x10 (not even x20) Kaio-Ken in conjunction with the Super Saiyan Blue form, reaching incredible heights of power -- and nearly crippling his ability to use ki for weeks afterwards, Senzus or no.
I intend to display the Kaio-Ken not as a convenient "I win" button, but very much as the very dangerous but potentially powerful technique that King Kai originally introduced it as. So yeah, Kakara could fire up a Kaio-Ken and surpass a basic Super Saiyan for like five seconds, but would most likely be hospitalized afterwards. So that could happen. But like a willpower push, the consequences if handled wrong are disastrous -- and unlike a willpower push, guaranteed.
EDIT: To expand, the overriding advantage of Super Saiyan that makes it so superior is its stability. Sure, the pre-mastered form is a power hog, but it isn't tearing your body to pieces as it goes. A Kaio-Ken can surpass it for a few seconds, but it's a rare opponent who loses in that time frame.
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- Location
- Too Deep in the Midnight Sea
Personally, I like the reasoning about SSJ power mechanics in Bringer of Death. If I remember correctly, the author makes ssj give a flat power bonus, with more power squeezed out as you master it. From what I remember, it made the power levels make sense for all of DBZ.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
It is a fairly sensible system, and easy to deal with as well, which is why I've adopted it here. Given our pace here we'll probably outpace npberryhill's explanation of the power levels in relatively short order, so I'll probably PM them to consult on later levels of the transformation. The next good long while, though, is fully covered.
Seems like votes are done streaming in in any quantity. Vote closed.
[X] Go out and investigate
9 votes
[x] Go out and watch
2 votes
[x] Go out, challenge him to a duel, and give him the Senzu bean. To make it a fair fight, of course.
-[X] It's the only way the idiot will accept it after all. I wish to challenge your TRUE power, not this broken wreck and so forth. SaiyaHam it up!
3 votes
[x] Go out, challenge him to a duel, and give him the Senzu bean. To make it a fair fight, of course.
1 vote
@Terrabrand, it seems you will indeed be dying on that hill.
By a wide margin, investigation wins! Update up soon.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
Damn, just too late to join on this vote.
For the record, I would have said:
[] Go out, challenge him to a duel, and give him the Senzu bean. To make it a fair fight, of course.
-[] It's the only way the idiot will accept it after all. "I wish to challenge your TRUE power, not this broken wreck" and so forth. SaiyaHam it up!
This hill looks like a good hill. I'll stop and rest here.
For the record, I would have said:
[] Go out, challenge him to a duel, and give him the Senzu bean. To make it a fair fight, of course.
-[] It's the only way the idiot will accept it after all. "I wish to challenge your TRUE power, not this broken wreck" and so forth. SaiyaHam it up!
This hill looks like a good hill. I'll stop and rest here.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Well, welcome anyway! Set your tent up to the left side of the hill. They sing rousing war chants every night at dusk.
I don't know why people think Jaffur would refuse a fight until he was healed. He's out there training by his own decision despite being a broken wreck and it being completely futile since he has literally no room for improvement left. He is a masochistic maniac working out his daddy issues through compulsive violence- a true Saiyan.
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- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
We aren't saying he'd refuse a fight. We're saying he'd refuse the bean unless we phrased it as "it'd be too easy with you broken like this". Essentially we're manipulating him for his own good. We have studied his psychology and are acting in a manner to get the results we have decided are best for him, given his likely responses. Y'know, like a friend.
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-[] It's the only way the idiot will accept it after all. "I wish to challenge your TRUE power, not this broken wreck" and so forth. SaiyaHam it up!
At least four people think he would refuse.
It's in reference to making him take the Senzu bean? Again, he already has people weaker than him to kick around at full strength. It hasn't helped him in the least. The transformation responds to a need, not a desire. He needs to be pushed to his limits in a conflict he sincerely believes he might die and is willing to die in. We can't give him that when he is at full strength. His father can provide the difficulty, but Jaffur ultimately knows that he won't kill him and might not be sufficiently frightened of death to begin with while being beaten by his Super Saiyan father isn't sufficient humiliation to motivate him. The only thing which has come close is the threat of his rival getting there before him, so a fight against her where his only chance of winning is transforming and the prospect of losing feels worse than death is the best thing for him.
Healing him isn't going to do him any favors. He'll just kick her ass with one hand behind his back simply to prove he can and then get broken again by his father the next day.
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- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
'it' in the referenced action didn't refer to the fight. It was patently obvious that he'd always be willing to accept a challenge from us. 'It' in that sentence was referencing the senzu bean. Without one, he'd stand no chance. Fighting (and doubtless beating) him in that position wouldn't do him or us any good. We would look like someone who can't fight against a healthy opponent, and he would become a determined enemy, shamed by losing to a girl from the weaker clan*.
(* in his, and his father's, eyes)
It appears that I was being too charitable in my interpretation. The Senzu bean is even more misguided.
Fighting him in this condition could do him a hell of a lot of good. None of the current approaches have worked. Working together to challenge each other and achieve the transformation hasn't been tried yet. Doing it while he's pained and injured is the only way for her to be a challenge and thereby create the need which the transformation requires. Transformation requires existential vulnerability on the order of imminent death or an even more feared blow to one's self-identity, and he just isn't vulnerable at full health. Nobody has worked their way into transcension by curbstomping mooks. Nobody has exploded with legendary power after being told, "you're perfectly safe and everything is going to be just fine." To transform he needs to have no other choice.
About the only thing which fighting him directly might achieve is pushing her to transform and thereby infuriate him, but that's still possible without making him capable of a one-hit knock-out against her.
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My, You're Popular
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
My, You're Popular
Okay, that's enough sitting around, he is going to die doing this. You haul yourself out of bed after a final check to make sure that nobody is listening in and throw open the doors to your bedroom's balcony. You step out and then promptly lift off, flying over to where Jaffur is training.
"What are you doing?" you ask, touching down behind him.
He halts, takes a second to wipe sweat off of his face, and turns to face you.
You flinch. He looks awful. Pale and flushed all at once, and breathing so heavily you're amazed he hasn't passed out. His right arm hangs with a horrible kind of limpness, and occasionally he is wracked by a full-body shudder.
"Training," he rasps, coughing.
"Why?" you ask, still horrified. "Your strength is at 15 million units exactly. Like, not even one off either way! There is absolutely nothing you could get out of this!"
"Can always be...better." He sways slightly, his gaze somewhat unfocused. "S...skill."
"I don't think you're going to get any of that out of this," you say, looking his over.
"Have to try."
You frown. "No you don't! You look like you're gonna die!"
"Have to try. Have to. I'm...I'm not weak." His gaze goes unfocused fully for a moment there. "M'not."
"I didn't say you were, but you're going to kill yourself going like this!"
"Can't have a Senzu. Father says."
"I...didn't say anything about a Senzu." Yet.
"Then what?" His gaze regains a bit of focus. "You going to put a band-aid on it, Scion?"
"Oh good, you're being a jerk again. Means you're back, I guess."
He spits off to the side. "Hm. Not like I'm in great shape."
You sigh. "You should go to sleep."
"Sleep doesn't do anyone any good." He straightens, as much as he's able. "Better to keep pushing." A ghost of a smirk crosses his face. "How about a spar, Scion?"
You throw up your hands. "You are so stupid!"
"Nah. I'm very smart. I just don't back down."
Well, he seems to be getting better the more we talk.
You frown. "Yeah, well neither do I. And I'm telling you that you need to go to sleep!"
His lip curls. "You don't back down? What, you think I haven't heard the stories? 'Kakara Goku, the Coward Scion.' 'Kakara Goku the Weak.' Weak Scion for a weak House. You don't back down? What a joke!"
You come to a screeching halt, eyes widening.
* * *
Vote weighting in effect from "Troubled."
[ ] Turn and leave. He's not worth your time.
[ ] "You know what? Fine." Fight Jaffur. It's what he wants.
-[ ] x2.0 Give him the Senzu bean first. "I wish to challenge your TRUE power, not this broken wreck." (Easier Communications check. You've been asking for it...
)-[ ] x1.5 Give him a hit of your energy first. You're no healer, but anybody can do that. (Easier Communications check)
[ ] x2.0 Just chuck the Senzu bean at him.
[ ] x1.5 Try to give him a dose of ki healing -- what little you're capable of, at least. (Communications to convince him to allow it)
[ ] Ignore him. He's trying to provoke you. You're curious about something.
-[ ] What about? (All topics trip Communications)
[ ] FUCK THIS GUY. Blow him up. Leave. (Non-fatal, don't worry)
[ ] Insult him and leave.
-[ ] Write-In? (My wife suggests saying, "At least my Dad doesn't abuse me." Terrifying little woman, she is)
[ ] Write-In.
You may pick as many of the above as you like, provided they don't conflict.
The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
[X] "You know what? Fine." Fight Jaffur. It's what he wants.
--[x] x1.5 Try to give him a dose of ki healing -- what little you're capable of, at least.
Wheee...
--[x] x1.5 Try to give him a dose of ki healing -- what little you're capable of, at least.
Wheee...
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- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
*squint* I don't think I've welcomed you yet. Welcome!
[x] "You know what? Fine." Fight Jaffur. It's what he wants.
-[x] x1.5 Try to give him a dose of ki healing -- what little you're capable of, at least. (Communications to convince him to allow it)
There, now I'm ok with fighting him. Put that healing skill to use. (He's not worth a bean.)
-[x] x1.5 Try to give him a dose of ki healing -- what little you're capable of, at least. (Communications to convince him to allow it)
There, now I'm ok with fighting him. Put that healing skill to use. (He's not worth a bean.)
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- Location
- Too Deep in the Midnight Sea
[X] "You know what? Fine." Fight Jaffur. It's what he wants.
-[X] Feed him the bean after you've beaten him and then leave.
-[X] Feed him the bean after you've beaten him and then leave.
- Location
- [REDACTED]
[X] "You know what? Fine." Fight Jaffur. It's what he wants.
-[X] x1.5 Try to give him a dose of ki healing -- what little you're capable of, at least. (Communications to convince him to allow it)
-[X] x1.5 Try to give him a dose of ki healing -- what little you're capable of, at least. (Communications to convince him to allow it)
If we insist on healing him, use one of the methods that produces a more even match or at most throw him the bean without talking him into it rather than forcing a full Senzu bean on him. Making him defy his father to destroy any chance of a challenge is cruel to him. Neither of us will get anything out of it and he'll get wrecked even harder by his father tomorrow as punishment.
If we have to include the bean, exploit its potential as a motivator. Make it one of the prizes. He'll be very interested in having his own bean not gated by his father. Given his pride, we can force him to ante up some pretty hefty stakes as well. What should we ask for?
If we have to include the bean, exploit its potential as a motivator. Make it one of the prizes. He'll be very interested in having his own bean not gated by his father. Given his pride, we can force him to ante up some pretty hefty stakes as well. What should we ask for?
- Location
- Israel
[X] "You know what? Fine." Fight Jaffur. It's what he wants.
--[x] x1.5 Try to give him a dose of ki healing -- what little you're capable of, at least.
--[x] x1.5 Try to give him a dose of ki healing -- what little you're capable of, at least.
ChildishChimera
A umbran summon
- Location
- New York
[x] "You know what? Fine." Fight Jaffur. It's what he wants.
-[x] x1.5 Try to give him a dose of ki healing -- what little you're capable of, at least. (Communications to convince him to allow it)
-[x] x1.5 Try to give him a dose of ki healing -- what little you're capable of, at least. (Communications to convince him to allow it)