DoofQuest- a Disney Villains Victorious CK2-Style Quest
- Thread starter Made in Heaven
- Start date
- Crossover
Overall, taking his offer has the potential to be VERY good (1d4+3 means, at minimum, a +4, which is...Quite a bit. And, at max, we'd jump 7 full points at once, which...Woof). On the other end, it's Xanatos, who, quite frankly, shouldn't be trusted further then we could throw him which...Actually, at this point is probably quite far (power armor) but my point is this could turn out very well or very poorly. High risk, high reward. On the other end. rejecting the offer is a nothing-ventured nothing-gained moment. 1d4+1 isn't exactly bad either, and it means Mr. 72 Intrigue doesn't have a tier-3 in (as long as we keep it that way). Hm...I still don't know. I'm leaning rejection just because I can't really figure out Xanay's angle, but...Hm. We really could use an Intrigue boost with Toffee around, but....Hm.
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AProcrastinator
You can Certainly Try
- Location
- Getting Somewhere
- Pronouns
- She/Hers
So what David is saying is, it takes the end of the world for him to be caught in a lie.
...yeah, that sounds right.
Lab_Accident
A 2D 1D4
- Location
- Your dreams
Honestly, I am likely to vote against just because to me there's a strong feeling of giving up to accepting that we cannot possibly beat Xanatos, so we might as well try to get a consolation prize out of it.
It feels like if we accept we this, we resign outselves to the fact that Doof can never win this game, that we as players can't win it, so we should aim to only lose against Xanatos. Toffee might win, Bill might win, or Xanatos might win. Doof can only ever be the runner-up at best.
And that's not a feeling I like, or that feels very in-character for Doof. It's not the most rational argument, but it's what swayed my decision.
It feels like if we accept we this, we resign outselves to the fact that Doof can never win this game, that we as players can't win it, so we should aim to only lose against Xanatos. Toffee might win, Bill might win, or Xanatos might win. Doof can only ever be the runner-up at best.
And that's not a feeling I like, or that feels very in-character for Doof. It's not the most rational argument, but it's what swayed my decision.
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Honestly, makes sense to me. If we go for the lessons then we're still a piece. Not a Pawn, we're getting promoted, but...We're still just a piece on his board. The other option is more "we don't want to be your game piece at all". It's time to be another player, not a game piece of Xanay's board. I want to be allies with Xanay, but I want to be a partner, not a sidekick.
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AProcrastinator
You can Certainly Try
- Location
- Getting Somewhere
- Pronouns
- She/Hers
...why is Xanatos being put in the same category as Toffee and Bill? Last I checked, the man was not advocating for any of kind of genocide, cruelty, or revenge against the world in general. In fact, if I recall Gargoyles correct, Xanatos has famously said that revenge is a "sucker's game".
If not accepting help from David Xanatos in order to... beat? David Xanatos?... is something you feel strongly about, I don't intend to gainsay you on that. If beating David Xanatos is something you feel so strongly about, then by all means, let that be your position.
But let us not confuse who our actual enemies are. Toffee and Bill are power-hungry madmen with vendettas against all that breathes. Xanatos is a friendly acquaintance.
Xanatos is also the type to teach you in complete sincerity if only to ensure that you are a competent rival/challenge. He'll of course hold stuff back to ensure that he has an edge, but if he respects you, which at the very least he does for Doof's talents and abilities if nothing else, he will keep to his end of the deal.
Look at it from his end, if he plays relatively straight teaching Doof, he gets another thread tying a competent business partner to him, shores up any potential leaks that Doof might cause for stuff *he* doesn't want known, makes Doof harder for others to deal with so they have to use more resources on him and thus have less to spare for himself, and can gain insight on how doof learns.
'Xany' has more to gain by being legit in teaching than not imo.
Look at it from his end, if he plays relatively straight teaching Doof, he gets another thread tying a competent business partner to him, shores up any potential leaks that Doof might cause for stuff *he* doesn't want known, makes Doof harder for others to deal with so they have to use more resources on him and thus have less to spare for himself, and can gain insight on how doof learns.
'Xany' has more to gain by being legit in teaching than not imo.
- Location
- USA
If we do take the deal and Xanatos trains us I absolutely want him to give the villain speech from Jade Empire if he ever betrays us.
"Your abilities have grown immensely. But it also does my heart good to see that you have remembered the basics of what I taught. Even the flaws."
"Your abilities have grown immensely. But it also does my heart good to see that you have remembered the basics of what I taught. Even the flaws."
It is very rare to see Xanatos written well. He is a character who is explicitly supposed to be smarter than the author. Not merely more intelligent, but smarter. He sees angles that others don't.
A particular difficulty is people misunderstanding the 'Xanatos gambit'. It is not a matter of all outcomes leading to his intended result. But rather being in position to take some advantage of any outcome, whether it is related to his intended result or not.
This interlude captures Xanatos perfectly.
On the vote. The reason I'm going to vote no is very simple: We don't have the spare personal action to make use of it. 'practice lying' is a (0/150) action. We would need at least 2 and likely 4+ personal actions dedicated towards it to see the benefit. And those are actions not being put towards getting to know Doof's family and employees/friends, not going into potions or trying (futilely) to make inators less terrible, not getting rid of potential heroes and actions we don't want to random roll into and not seeing to stuff like invitations or quests.
There are only so many actions in a turn and making an action we aren't going to take better is no meaningful benefit.
- Location
- USA
What do you mean? We are absolutely going to do it. We're going to do all the stat buff ones eventually. They provide a permanent buff to every action in their category. That's hugely beneficial.
Taking the deal just turns a potential +4 into a potential +7
- Location
- USA
I am leaning on taking the deal, David is really a good guy playing up the strengths he has as a very intelligent man well versed in social sciences and interpersonal relationships. I don't see us really coming into conflict over ideological things at present or near future. Our goals are often aligned and when it comes to the excesses of the other kings in the game I feel we have shared the opinion that they need to get a handle on their self destructive tendencies or else be replaced. I am fine with Xanatos having knowledge of the current secrets we hold and having him as a teacher for intrigue would speed up our gain in that stat, plus we could get to the point of actually being friends.
- Location
- Germany
As a factor of some potential influence in the vote, remember that Xanatos has a pin that looks like this:
This is entirely an argument from OOC paranoia, but we have to consider the benefits of 2 guaranteed Intrigue vs the chance of Bill playing peekaboo from David's lapel at some point.
...And that´s the reason why I *hate* Bills mere existence - it´s like playing against someone who knows all the cheats and uses all the bots all the time, yet only loses because *he randomly decides to EAT HIS SETUP five seconds away from utterly crushing you because he´s that braindead and conceited*.
Makes trying to "play" against him an utter waste of time.
Anyway...pretty sure that David knows of Bill and thusly disposed of his Illuminati pin
As for the vote, that´s essentially a King-version of the problem anyone hiring a hacker to "probe" their cyber security faces:
You´d gain valuable outside insight in your defenses´ weakpoints - *but so does the one doing the probing* and you have to be able to trust them to not go the extra mile and rob you blind utterly.
Now, it´s quite clear that David is manipulating us to his own gain but here´s the catch:
*He explicitly tells us that fact himself*, so in a weird way he´s being *more honest* to us than most people offering that kinda deal.
He effectively tells us "look, I can help you out a lot in keeping your secrets safer from OTHERS, but I PERSONALLY will be able read you like an open book in the process and you have to expect me to exploit that for myself at any given time - *are you okay with that?*"
The very fact that David "I only look for my own benefit and that of my family" Xanatos is that open about his own inherent scumminess and actually *seeks our consent* in "formalizing" things into an arrangement that at least *approaches* the label "symbiotic" (while of course still slanted in his favor) shows me that he prefers having us as a(n admittedly secondary) partner over having us as a rival.
Honestly, despite the obvious drawbacks of allowing Xanatos to "mold" us into someone more useful to him he´d still make us a force to be reckoned with against anyone *not* him and since we gain more from cooperating with him outta sheer pragmatism than from opposing him at every single turn (*figuratively speaking*) just because "we wanna be at the absolute top, consequences be damned" that is liable to *get us killed* against those like Toffee and Bill.
And who knows? Even though we would start out as a particularly powerful and autonomous "patsy" to him, that doesn´t mean that we can´t later on impress him into accepting us as a near-equal similar to what happened between him and Goliath at the very tail-end of canon Gargoyles, where he ended their feud and came as clean as someone like him could.
Honestly leaning towards taking the deal because sometimes, accepting that *for the time being at least* you have to pay second fiddle to someone else because it´s the best course of action long-term is no shame at all.
- Location
- USA
We really should do a collaboration with him at some point just to see what he's interested in doing with us.
Probably our warp engine.
Honestly that would get it out of our backlog, boost our reputation with him and the government and boost the space program. Might even get our foot in the door to get solo government space jobs with terraforming or something.
Probably our warp engine.
Honestly that would get it out of our backlog, boost our reputation with him and the government and boost the space program. Might even get our foot in the door to get solo government space jobs with terraforming or something.
We are fighting at least 2 mutiversal threats maybe as many as double digits. We also are hated by the US government. At this point let's play his game, and learn to be better. VILLIAN KING is not a zero sum one player wins game. Let's have him teach us how to cheat, and...well. Who knows. Maybe we can teach him to trust again. Also give him his desired immortality in exchange for support in bumping off THE MOST HATED DOOOM
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'll admit, I think you're being a bit fooled, though I agree with your conclusion. Xanatos isn't lying to Doof because he doesn't need to lie- indeed, lying to Doof would be actively counterproductive. By telling the truth, he's able to build trust and avoid building on a potentially unstable foundation.
I think it's important to remember that even though Xanatos never counted us as a friend, his act of pretending like he never knew Doof was considering him as a friend was just that- an act. He almost certainly did know, and was taking advantage of it. Now, he's taking advantage of Doof's new realization to cement himself as a reasonable man and potential ally in Doof's estimation.
This isn't to say we shouldn't take him up on it, we probably should. But we shouldn't let ourselves think he views us even as an ally, yet.
- Location
- Germany
Joke´s on David there, then - as I said on the Discord earlier, we are essentially the Monkey D. Luffy to his Trafalgar Law (meaning that while he might have gone into this arrangement fully intending to use us as a mere means to an end, our zaniness and rugged charm might be too much too deal with for even his stonefecedness and win him over after all, being still a fallible human being and all)
Also, I am getting kinda annoyed at everyone scoffing at the very notion of David harbouring at least *some* yet-distant fondness and admiration for Doof - after all, we helped him contain the Sanderson Witches during the Auction *and* saved his friggin bacon during Twelfth Night - try as he might, he simply *Can´t* be not affected even the slightest bit by that without stopping to still be fundamentally human.
Sure, it´s only an *ember* of positive predisposition, but it´s not *nothing* either and can still grow into more all the same.
BlueWerewolf25
The Dreamer
- Location
- Wouldn't You Like To Know?
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
Now, obviously choosing to promote a pawn is an important decision, and you have to consider all the pieces on the board...
....Yeah, there is literally nothing to lose from taking this option. Like, Xanatos already knows most of our stuff. And he's giving Intrigue lessons. That's bonkers. He may not have our best interests per say, but he does owe us for saving his ass. He's not really gonna sabotage us unless we fuck up royally.
- Location
- USA
Honestly he's probably incredibly impressed by doof but also terrified of what would happen if we went wild.
We altered probability for our entire solar system. Sure it was a crazy fluke thing but we did it. That's insane. That's really really insane.
He might think we are one of the most brilliant people on the planet. And that he needs to keep a close eye on us and perhaps do what he can to ensure we don't go crazy.
And stay on his side of course.
We altered probability for our entire solar system. Sure it was a crazy fluke thing but we did it. That's insane. That's really really insane.
He might think we are one of the most brilliant people on the planet. And that he needs to keep a close eye on us and perhaps do what he can to ensure we don't go crazy.
And stay on his side of course.
- Location
- Germany
another thing to consider:
even if we do take his deal, that only becomes an issue *whenever we take that new Personal*
other than that, things can proceed as usual and honestly:
*Do we actually NEED Doof to be good at Intrigue himself for DEI to move forward?*
Not really, although it would definitely help.
So in the end we would still have *Some control* over how much clout David gains from that deal in the end by simply *not actively using that Personal*
even if we do take his deal, that only becomes an issue *whenever we take that new Personal*
other than that, things can proceed as usual and honestly:
*Do we actually NEED Doof to be good at Intrigue himself for DEI to move forward?*
Not really, although it would definitely help.
So in the end we would still have *Some control* over how much clout David gains from that deal in the end by simply *not actively using that Personal*
Bluntly put, while learning intruige from Xanatos will make it easier for him to see through our actions, I don't think it makes a difference. He's already got a good sense of our character, he understands our strengths and weaknesses and most cruicially; he's got an understanding of how he can lead Doof around. He does it masterfully in this update.
Xan's interest here isn't so much to learn more about us, but to prevent others from doing what he's been doing: manipulating us. As far as Xan's concerned our "friendship" is a valuable resource, because of what we can do, our inators, our science team, our hold on food... He wants to know what we are doing and have the priveledge of forewarning if we mess with probability again, but in that same vein he wants to make sure on one else has it.
We want to have a better feel for when people manipulate us, because the fact that we approached Xan about this in the first place shows just how bad we are at this...
In short: unless we have something planned in the near future that Xanatos would sabotage, I say we go for it. We'll gain a bonus in intruige, and probably a trait that grants a malus towards intruige against Xan personally.
I think it's worth it, though Mirage is going to be tearing her hair out, no doubt.
Though it would be useful if we knew how hard it would be for us to beat Xan's Intruige rolls and vice versa now, and if we get Mirage's +4/ Xan's +7.
Xan's interest here isn't so much to learn more about us, but to prevent others from doing what he's been doing: manipulating us. As far as Xan's concerned our "friendship" is a valuable resource, because of what we can do, our inators, our science team, our hold on food... He wants to know what we are doing and have the priveledge of forewarning if we mess with probability again, but in that same vein he wants to make sure on one else has it.
We want to have a better feel for when people manipulate us, because the fact that we approached Xan about this in the first place shows just how bad we are at this...
In short: unless we have something planned in the near future that Xanatos would sabotage, I say we go for it. We'll gain a bonus in intruige, and probably a trait that grants a malus towards intruige against Xan personally.
I think it's worth it, though Mirage is going to be tearing her hair out, no doubt.
Though it would be useful if we knew how hard it would be for us to beat Xan's Intruige rolls and vice versa now, and if we get Mirage's +4/ Xan's +7.
- Location
- The great frozen north
Xanatos is at least not a total scumbag, and I wouldn't mind being a junior partner in an alliance with him against cosmic horrors and apartheid states.
This is a good point though. And after the shenanigans with Wasabi I am not inclined to spend another quarter-year on a small stat boost. Question is though: Suppose we accept Xanatos's offer and then drag our feet on the personal, what happens then?
Minor point of order, but...
Your "Ask Mirage to let you practice lying" Personal Action changes to 'Ask Xanatos to let you practice lying'. Reward changes from gaining 1d4+1 intrigue to 1d4+3 intrigue.
The reward for taking the action with Mirage is 2-5 and Xanatos has to devote some effort to getting back to max infiltration.
The reward for taking the action with Xanatos is 4-7.
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Honestly - I agree here. Not sure I would take it as far as Law and Luffy.
I would say the fact that being on our good side is just plain good for him ways heavier, and the fondness is just a secondary benefit. Neither means he won't betray us if the cards fall that way, though.
Bakaemono
[ ] Absorb Light Bright Energy
DC 100
86+24 (Stewardship)+29-7=132
Success
Light Bright Energy, one of the lesser companies aligned with the Zaibatsus on the west coast, was forcefully absorbed into the Bakaemono corporation after an attempted vote of no confidence in the CEO previously known to work closely with the larger firm. Several key shareholders have rapidly changed their stance and have publicly announced their support for the merger. Police are investigating the disappearance of investor Hikari Akarui, previously one of the firm's most outspoken critics of Bakaemono policy. The Yakuza are suspected, and some are seeing an implicit warning not to move against the interests of the city's elite.
Hmmm... Is this a weird coincidence or does UTAU stuff have some Disney connection that I am missing?
[ ] Absorb Light Bright Energy
DC 100
86+24 (Stewardship)+29-7=132
Success
Light Bright Energy, one of the lesser companies aligned with the Zaibatsus on the west coast, was forcefully absorbed into the Bakaemono corporation after an attempted vote of no confidence in the CEO previously known to work closely with the larger firm. Several key shareholders have rapidly changed their stance and have publicly announced their support for the merger. Police are investigating the disappearance of investor Hikari Akarui, previously one of the firm's most outspoken critics of Bakaemono policy. The Yakuza are suspected, and some are seeing an implicit warning not to move against the interests of the city's elite.
Hmmm... Is this a weird coincidence or does UTAU stuff have some Disney connection that I am missing?