Jesus christ folks just do a DL already, AN confirmed it's a bloody nessicity. Your acting like private lands is literally evil incarnate and your willing to burn the society down to ashes rather then let it emerge.

What the hell has private property ever done to ye?!?!
 
Thanks! That makes sense now. I agree with it. Now what about the beatings one?
The joke is that beating almost never improve morale, and AN has stated that our society will always have greed which will lead to pushes for DL every few generation until post-scarcity. Considering the planet itself is limited even if there were no limits on personal gain or ownership beyond enforcement of property rights we would eventually run out of land and resources and be forced to either become a multi-planetary civilization bringing imperialism into the stars or manage our own population and resources in a much more strict manner. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and so this tag symbolizes my determination to prevent that crisis from occurring in our civilization by killing it in the crib every time it reanimates. Hence the phase the beatings will continue until morale improves.
 
Yeah, I do have to ask, with the knowledge that DL isn't going away any time soon, is DL the Hill we really want to die on?

I'm thinking we need to find a way to DL in a way that works with our civ. No DL means we have to suppress increasingly powerful movements until industrialization, all while dealing with our other problems. I don't think that's possible long term.

We do have fundamentalist elements within the thread, so yes some will die on the hill.:V
 
Jesus christ folks just do a DL already, AN confirmed it's a bloody nessicity. Your acting like private lands is literally evil incarnate and your willing to burn the society down to ashes rather then let it emerge.

What the hell has private property ever done to ye?!?!

Not private property, private land ownership.
There are plenty of privately owned means of production; however, land must be a communal resource because it feeds people and we cannot trust patricians to not starve people for the sake of profit.
Stupid use of other things hurts way less people than stupid use of land.
 
Given that we need to take actions to really use a hero, do people think we'll have the spare actions to use them before they die? There's so much we have to deal with at the moment. Even with the cities we're likely to be crazy busy.
 
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Yeah, I do have to ask, with the knowledge that DL isn't going away any time soon, is DL the Hill we really want to die on?
In theory, yes.

In practice, DL is inevitable anyway as soon as we get an admin hero taking over the turn. So it's a doomed resistance, anyway.

However, if we are to do DL, if we are to introduce this totally new element into our society... then actually, yeah, I'd rather wait for an admin hero to do it. And generally delay that moment as long as possible, while we hopefully manage to get some sort of education infrastructure up.
 
DL will continue to be brought up until we break or accept it.

For, oh, the next 1-2 thousand years.
Meh, we can take them.

Actually if DL keeps happening because we are an anomaly then all we have to do it either kill all our neighbors or have them adopt something other then DL.
 
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Not private property, private land ownership.
There are plenty of privately owned means of production; however, land must be a communal resource because it feeds people and we cannot trust patricians to not starve people for the sake of profit.
Stupid use of other things hurts way less people than stupid use of land.

I think we should be more careful of saying other people will cause starvation, since it was the voters that caused starvation up to this point.
 
Not private property, private land ownership.
There are plenty of privately owned means of production; however, land must be a communal resource because it feeds people and we cannot trust patricians to not starve people for the sake of profit.
Stupid use of other things hurts way less people than stupid use of land.


It the bloody government you need to keep out of any sort of management if ye don't want folks to starve due to pettiness, laziness, greed and general fuckery.
 
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We have plenty of ways to build the Law.

Meanwhile, if we actually want to integrate our vassals or keep them loyal, building up our culture is vital - and we have no other way to get culture heros.
We can't reasonably integrate many of our vassals until we upgrade our government. Most of them have several provinces and we're coming to the limit of how many provinces we can get.

So at least part of what you want to do requires us to take government upgrade megaprojects.

Like, I want to do the Great Library too, but if it comes down to it, Classical Law is much more important at this point and should be taken over the Great Library.

I am rooting for both though.
 
Because your system is an anomaly and there are lots of people who don't particularly like it, only really going along with it because it's the only system they really know. It will reappear every couple of generations until you either suffer a social break, the players give in, or the players elect someone who will implement it.

If we choose to Distribute Land outside of the current quest, will the patricians be able to take it with their own actions?
 
[X] [Parl] Dryad Housing Act (Main Expand Forest, Priests +1 Faction Power, Yeoman approve, Patricians disapprove)

The big thing preventing Alyx from doing Distribute Land on his own is that the priests disapprove. We need to increase the power of the priests to convince Alyx not to do Distribute Land when he takes over the turn.

Do we REALLY need more forests? We've already go a Repeated Expand Forest, and some Forestry Policies, and you're voting to go with the Priest's plan... of expanding forests?
The Expand Forests action has innovation rolls and positive interaction with the Forestry policy.
 
It the bloody government you need to keep out of any sort of management if ye do want folks to starve due to pettiness, laziness and general fuckery.

Nah. "Industry where you lack freedom to choose since refusing services of one provider will kill you" is the type of thing which needs nationalization; since farmers cannot choose another master (they can in theory we know your spiel; as a person who knows a bit of history of, say, Eastern Europe, I also know it's bullshit in practice) land ownership is one of such things.

Private property is fine with city employment where there are a lot of competing employers and thus there is an option to get the fuck away from shittier ones; in rural areas, you are stuck with your landlord.
 
In practice, DL is inevitable anyway as soon as we get an admin hero taking over the turn. So it's a doomed resistance, anyway.

It depends on the Admin hero, and their background. Remember that while DL is good for the Patricians, it's bad for the King.

The other obvious answer, of course, is a hereditary absolute monarchy. They'd have no incentive ever to distribute land.
 
Yeah, I do have to ask, with the knowledge that DL isn't going away any time soon, is DL the Hill we really want to die on?

I'm thinking we need to find a way to DL in a way that works with our civ. No DL means we have to suppress increasingly powerful movements until industrialization, all while dealing with our other problems. I don't think that's possible long term.
Take it slowly, as secondaries, and backed with Enforce Justice and Hunt Troublemakers if you want to find a way to do it.

Do not take it rampantly to the point where it becomes unchecked. We ultimately want it to be about assigning people who are skilled at the jobs and taking care of it to run the land, not just assigning people and hoping it works out. We also want to make sure we don't go so far as to make it land ownership.
 
[X] [Parl] Cement Production Subsidies (Main Increase Cement Production, Patricians disapprove)

[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [React] Contact Freehills (Sec Diplomatic Mission)

[X] [PSN] Sec Expand Econ (-1 Centralization + Costs)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)

[X] [Lesson] The bindings between superiors and subordinates
[X] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels

[X] [Diplo] Boost all subordinate loyalty (-15 Diplo)
[X] [Diplo] Begin Boundary Passage Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Diplo)

[X] [Culture] Gain a Cultural Hero (-15 Culture)
[X] [Culture] Gain a Cultural Genius (-20 Culture)
[X] [Culture] Upgrade a random value (-18 Culture)

[X] [Mystic] Begin Great Library Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Mysticism)
 
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