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Paths of Civilization

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Looking good I'd say. Love the Dragon King title. Fuckin metal that is.

Academia Nut said:
[] [Lesson] The bindings between superiors and subordinates
[] [Lesson] The bonds between warriors
[] [Lesson] The importance of maintaining training
[] [Lesson] The glory of a good death
[] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
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Ah yeah value evolution is here!
Lesson 1 is obviously Lord's Loyalty evolution. Those who don't know, Lord's Loyalty is a level one trait, iirc, which means subordinates are less likely to break away but we need to give extra commitment to them in return. Also affects our internal class hierarchy and means good Lord's are considered those who follow their obligations to their subjects.

Lesson 2 is a Symphony upgrade I am pretty sure. Joyous Symphony is one of our oldest traits and is a level three trait and provides our communalist backbone. Gives bonuses to group efforts and means we both actually have Causus Belli and get stability from ending wars peacefully.

Lesson 3 is all about Swords and Ploughshares evolution. This is a level 2 trait which provides bonus martial based on our Economy and also provides martial damage resistance at high economy. The downside is that extreme losses can damage our econ.

Lesson 4 is Honourable Death. It is a pretty old level 1 trait and means that we don't suffer as bad morale loss in war but do suffer heavier casualties as people seek good deaths. Also knocks together with Symphony and all of the Greater Good fused into our culture to allow for honourable suicide. Things like people rushing into burning buildings and collapsing mines without fear to save others happen because of this trait.

Lesson 5 is a Life of Arete evolution. Life of Arete currently is a... level 2 trait iirc, and provides roll bonuses in that our criticals and doubles do more and are more powerful. It causes everything to be more expensive however. Also bounces off Philosopher Kings and means our leaders are forced to be competitive and actually skilled if everything is working as intended.

We have our various gilded age bonuses. In diplo the most valuable ones are the hero, subordinates loyalty boost which buys at least seven loyalty at a fraction of their worth, and then the boundary passage which is useful in a few turns but does not in any way need to be started now.

Culture hero is really good, upgrade random value is really nice but the most urgent and thus valuable option is the Law MP track which means we can get that done without any actions.

Mysticism is holy cow(I mean this literally, thank Fythhagyna) good. A hero would be interesting, a new slot would be curious and something to honestly consider. Unlocking Philosopher Kings for advancement is possible and quite cool but taking it and the value evolution is risky since if it evolves we aren't exactly in a position to pay for its likely successor. We could probably but it would not be fun. To me though the most interesting one is to make Mylathadysm a value. This is because of its Charity value. I think that flies right in the face of Purity and would make Purity be outnumbered in the battle it is having with Pride in Acceptance. The Great Library is also there but I've thought about it and I want to go slow on the Law, in the sense of sticking it in a MP track and putting the Great Library through really quickly with mega support policy. Start the Great Library once the Dam ends after next main turn and have the Law working through there.

Taking the DL option and the priest option have problems. The DO one being this is a poor action in the current context and political climate, the priest one because it puts the at 7 power which means 3.5 RA bonus, which may round up and put us in red RA. Cement production is viable but a bit expensive, it's listed in last update's important projects spoiler. Veto is kinda silly.

Now for reaction here are my ideas:

If we want to be able to pay for things next turn and get on with our Urban Poor quest we need to take a Main Expand Econ. This will put us at 14 expansion before expansion's negative 8 income. That means that by next mid turn if we have taken a Main Expand Exon here we have a decent chance of every city except for Lower Valleyhome to be back. So next main turn, do a support Urban Poor and then make a free city in the mid turn or the main turn afterwards. Then make the last one on that same main turn, so two, and finish their quest.

So I have three ideas.

One: do two React Secondary Expand Econ and a mission to the Harmurri and then use the PSN vote to do either nothing or one secondary expand forests(don't want to refund too much expansion)

Two: do one React Expand Econ plus diplo missions to the Harmurri and Freehills and PSN secondary expand econ.

Three: two React Expand Econ, one PSN Secondary Expand Econ and a diplo mission to the Harmurri. This ensures that the cities come back and we could finish the Urban Poor quest next main turn.

My current vote will be for these and some very specific GA and value options.

Idea one:

[X] [Parl] Cement Production Subsidies (Main Increase Cement Production, Patricians disapprove)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ) x2
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [PSN] Sec Expand Forest (-1 Centralization + Costs)

Idea two:

[X] [Parl] Cement Production Subsidies (Main Increase Cement Production, Patricians disapprove)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [React] Contact Freehills (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [PSN] Sec Expand Econ (-1 Centralization + Costs)

Idea three:

[X] [Parl] Cement Production Subsidies (Main Increase Cement Production, Patricians disapprove)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ) x2
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [PSN] Sec Expand Econ (-1 Centralization + Costs)

[X] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
[X] [Diplo] Nothing
[X] [Culture] Begin Classical Law Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Culture)
[X] [Mystic] Gain a new trait slot for Mylathadysm (-12 Mysticism)


Blah that took an hour and a half on phone.
 
[X] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
[X] [Diplo] Gain a Diplo Hero (-15 Diplo)
[X] [Culture] Begin Classical Law Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Culture)
[X] [Mystic] Begin Great Library Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Mysticism)
Hmm, I wonder if this is an evolution to symphony? It's really tempting to take the obvious evolution on Lord's Loyalty beforehand, because it has never been upgraded, but this sounds like a much better lesson.

I want the diplo hero because diplo is something I feel we should get stuff passed on, and said hero would greatly help in appeasing the factions, and I want to get started on the Law and Library megaprojects sooner rather than latter.

[X] [Parl] Dryad Housing Act (Main Expand Forest, Priests +1 Faction Power, Yeoman approve, Patricians disapprove)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [React] Contact Freehills (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)

Trees! They would cause a temporary dip in our EE by 4 that would refill next turn, which is what we want.

Since that isn't going to get voted for, I'll just fall in line with rest of my votes to get the one that gets our EE down passed.
 
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8bitBob said:
Derp. This is what I get for doing math in my head and thinking 25 - 16 is 11.

That is indeed enough. We need to be mindful of other econ expenses though, since that will eat into our overflow. In particular, Boundary Passage will cost us two more econ. Improve Festival is another. This already costs us a city, and any more may tip us over the edge and cost us all of them.
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I actually derped the math myself a bit; check it again. Our final EE there should be 11, which should be enough.
 
@BungieONI, why not spend your PSNs in your plans with Main Cash Crops? They net reduce EE by one, and help give other stats.

PrimalShadow said:
Then again, it would also get us "other effects" from Planting Textiles, which means more paper. Works well with starting the library, so I am willing to go for it... if we can sway the vote appropriately.
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I think paper would also help with the law. Or even simply with the new government, when we have an Excellent Administrator in charge.
 
8bitBob said:
That would be problematic with Boundary Passage.

Honestly, at this point I am inclined to just Main Textiles + 2x Expand Econ even if Boundary Passage doesn't win. We're kind of riding a knife's edge.
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Why are we doing Boundary Passage? I don't honestly see the need for it as of yet.
 
[X] [Parl] Cement Production Subsidies (Main Increase Cement Production, Patricians disapprove)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Celebrate (Sec Improve Annual Festival)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)
[X] [Diplo] Begin Boundary Passage Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Diplo)
[X] [Culture] Gain a Cultural Hero (-15 Culture)
[X] [Culture] Gain a Cultural Genius (-20 Culture)
[X] [Mystic] Begin Great Library Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Mysticism)

[X] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
 
Academia Nut said:
[] [Lesson] The bindings between superiors and subordinates
[] [Lesson] The bonds between warriors
[] [Lesson] The importance of maintaining training
[] [Lesson] The glory of a good death
[] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think we need to carefully consider these options, as I could see a few of them leading to undesirable outcomes.

The bindings between superiors and subordinates: might increase vassal-lord loyalty, but given the context of coming from war, and the fact that most of the soldiers were from the core (at least from my understanding), I'd say it's probably going to make our society more hierarchical and more socially static than bind our vassals closer to us. Obviously, this isn't really desired - we want more social mobility, so that a Genius, regardless of which class they were born, can have a chance to shine.

The bonds between warriors: this probably leads to some sort of honour trait, and I can't really think of an obvious downside. Equally, however, I can't think of any obvious upside that we would really want that could develop from choosing this.

The importance of maintaining training: would probably make our society more martial-inclined as a whole, may lead to more professional soldiers eventually. However I would worry that it would tip us too far into militarising, when we are not really expansionist - so it might lead to too much martial overflow, leading to another situation similar to that which caused the formation of the Storm Ymaryn.

The glory of a good death: yeah....don't think we want this. We don't want to glorify death in combat (which is what it is most likely going to be, given we're givn this option at the end of a war). Also, I think we had a choice of a trait similar to this many, many posts ago, and the general consensus then was that it's a bad idea.

The importance of skilled commanders at all levels: as someone had already said, good NCOs are very important for a well-trained, disciplined, professional army. Also, this was one of the reasons for the options we picked one or two updates ago (so we could get NCOs). Can't really see any downsides - maybe in the future if we got some sort of trait about ambitious subordinates it might come and bite us, but that is a very hypothetical scenario, and, honestly, having good, competent subordinates is very useful.

[x] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
 
8bitBob said:
Honestly, at this point I am inclined to just Main Textiles + 2x Expand Econ even if Boundary Passage doesn't win. We're kind of riding a knife's edge.
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Actually, thinking about the Textiles option. With two Expand Economy reaction, we would be gaining +14 Econ. But Textiles would eat -5 and Cement another -2, for a net total of +7. Thus, we would be going from 17 Econ to 24, and from from 25 EE to 18. We would also lose 6 EE from Textiles, so that puts us at 12. In contrast, the Expand Econ option puts us at 11. 11 Is nicer, because it means we get an extra city up. :)
 
CeBrudras said:
Finally we get some damn worldbuilding! The salt sea arrangement sounds really interesting and I really hope we get some information about the mess going on in the west eventually.
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At least not everyone has kept up with our dedicated tech focus, for once.
ctulhuslp said:
Ah, good old Ymaryn tradition of what to do after the war while in gilded/golden age
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Ah yes, "farming".
HeWhoAdds said:
We probably won't have the Cent range for it
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You know what'd solve that? Reads.
Alratan said:
He's a Patrician, born and bred? And as he's the King, whose family do you think will get the prime land
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Wait, wasn't he unmarried due to not really being a capital-P Patrician? Raising quickly through the ranks and prospects getting increasingly better?

Anyway, there seems to be a really strong case for doing Distribute Land.
 
BungieONI said:
Lesson 3 is all about Swords and Ploughshares evolution. This is a level 2 trait which provides bonus martial based on our Economy and also provides martial damage resistance at high economy. The downside is that extreme losses can damage our econ.
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Quality of it's own -> We have the Reserves (Library) -> Swords and Ploughshares (End of the first epic age)

It's level 3.

Your idea of what each thing evolves from sounds accurate though. Now I wonder what the evolutions will be to?
 
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[X] [Parl] Cement Production Subsidies (Main Increase Cement Production, Patricians disapprove)
[X] [React] Farm (Sec Expand Econ)
[X] [React] Celebrate (Sec Improve Annual Festival)
[X] [React] Contact Harmurri (Sec Diplomatic Mission)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Centralization + Costs)
[X] [Diplo] Begin Boundary Passage Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Diplo)
[X] [Culture] Gain a Cultural Hero (-15 Culture)
[X] [Culture] Gain a Cultural Genius (-20 Culture)
[X] [Mystic] Begin Great Library Megaproject in its own action track (-12 Mysticism)

[X] [Lesson] The importance of skilled commanders at all levels
 
PrimalShadow said:
Actually, thinking about the Textiles option. With two Expand Economy reaction, we would be gaining +14 Econ. But Textiles would eat -5 and Cement another -2, for a net total of +7. Thus, we would be going from 17 Econ to 24, and from from 25 EE to 18. We would also lose 6 EE from Textiles, so that puts us at 12. In contrast, the Expand Econ option puts us at 11. 11 Is nicer, because it means we get an extra city up. :)
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Not necessarily, because of the risk of sudden over centralisation. We don't suddenly want loads and loads of cities.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Actually, thinking about the Textiles option. With two Expand Economy reaction, we would be gaining +14 Econ. But Textiles would eat -5 and Cement another -2, for a net total of +7. Thus, we would be going from 17 Econ to 24, and from from 25 EE to 18. We would also lose 6 EE from Textiles, so that puts us at 12. In contrast, the Expand Econ option puts us at 11. 11 Is nicer, because it means we get an extra city up. :)
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Alright, I'm inclined to stay with 3x Expand Econ now. We need to make sure not to take on any more econ costs though. So no Improve Festival or Boundary Passage.
 
BungieONI said:
Why are we doing Boundary Passage? I don't honestly see the need for it as of yet.
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Hmm, I'm thinking on it, and I haven't read the thread too much because I don't have the time, but considering it costs diplo and it goes through Freehills land, who have no reason to let us do it since they control the straight, we might not be able to do it outside of a Golden Age bonus in the near future.
 
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