- Pronouns
- They/Them
Why are you voting to bankrupt us for meaningless dickwaving?
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Why are you voting to bankrupt us for meaningless dickwaving?
- Location
- Staring into the void
.5 increase for the cost of gear, and .5 increase for having to increase the number of support personal paid, and how much they get paid.
People who are 'at any cost' will just vote now. That's how it is with any vote like this. But sooner or later one of our analysts will actually run out the numbers and then people will make the choices they'll make. I know it's irritating to see votes pile up on one side, but give the vote a few hours to even out before losing your cool and making arguments for pragmatism. You're right that people aren't really listening now, and the argument 'this will cost a LOT' doesn't mean much without numbers and consequences to back it up.
What's that you say? Crash the power of the short-sighted, wealth-hungry-at-any-cost elitists who pursue nothing but local optima? Kill the decadent, over-burdened, imperialist civilization that doesn't give a fuck about the being an undeveloped and unconnected empire?
Why, thank you for alerting me to this critical vote of utmost importance!
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
I only care about PSN and Greater Justice of the entire list of Values and Legacies. Everything else -- especially Life of Arete and Philosopher Kings, the trash ensured and continues to ensure the half-exile is so bad -- can go hang.
ymaryn delenda est
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Personally I am kinda hoping people go for it and we can use it as a cautionary tale for why going full morality in barely steel age civilization is bad especially when were unstable as it is with how fast were advancing.
- Location
- Staring into the void
Changing my vote
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
Taking the slightly less expensive dam option.
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
We need more markets built.
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
Taking the slightly less expensive dam option.
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
We need more markets built.
- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Quoting it here for easier access.
Those spite quests won't be so easily ignored, and they'll also cause loss of stability, and possible narrative disasters.
Also- what happens when we have to go to war against Highlanders? Won't that incur additional costs, from moving and replenishing your troops or disruptions of trade?
Hell, what other disasters can strike us in this time? ... How long is this going to be a thing, the double wealth costs? How many turns?
Edit: ... it's forever, isn't it? This is what we'll have to live with from now on.
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The moral will be muddled because anyone arguing against it can point to the white elephant dam.
- Location
- England
[X] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
Currently it drops our Wealth income from +9 to +2. It makes a lot of our actions worthless (especially Mills and Salt Gift).
We can pay for it, but only if we get significantly more wealth income or don't mind not being able to take any -wealth actions for a long while. And that includes the fancy dam.
@Academia Nut
If we get trade disruption, will that disrupt Market wealth income or only external trade?
It will also means we will have Patricians lead our armies abroad at a time when they are pissed off at the government.
Da Boyz
The Cutest Apocalypse.
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
Well here's to pragmatism.
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
Well here's to pragmatism.
Which again seems excessive in the extreme. Setting aside how the cost of gear has plummeted due to the Ironworks without us seeing any sort of change in mercenary maintenance knockon costs shouldn't effectively double the cost of labor in this situation. Even if most of the grunt work was done by half-exiles it isn't enough.
If we have to for existential reasons due to the Holy War about to come at us, then absolutely. We need to be able to utilize it if needed, and being econ positive is how we do that. Our only econ generating option (Mills) just got it's wealth cost doubled, so that's out.
Preparing for the worst case scenario is the smart thing to do here, and assuming we can win a war without trying our hardest is dangerously overconfident.
Waiting for the Government Reform works for Trade too, and doesn't require us to waste an action switching off them. +2 wealth from having them a single turn earlier isn't worth it.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
AN gave primal and i a minor boon each (think like a lot of quests have for omake bonus)for our help with math and stat calcs; a small tech or boost to a roll as the example. Originally primal and i both asked for stuff for the grand halls (like mine was originally "have the narrative be the patricians taking the new policies, so they all go on infrastructure and build grand halls even if they normally can't"
), but i had a secondary "if thats too powerful or not what you're looking for, maybe just road tech or a boost to teh tear out roll. When AN posted the Salt Warning, i sent a joking (because i mistakenly thought my boon had already gone into the grand hall action) message about how "i dont suppose my boon did end up getting used for boosting tear out action on that list of possible boons? D="...at which point it turned out he'd missed that part, and had been halfway hoping one of us would use our boon on it anyway. So its "a clerk pointing something out to the king" on three levels--1 its the in character reasoning for the better outcome, 2. i got the boon for pointing things out to AN in the past, and 3. i pointed out that he missed my list of possible boons as well XDAs for votes...useful but not overly big dam, and then i'm really not sure :/
For now, approval voting against the bandwagon just to make it a little more likely that if a good argument is made for one of the other options it has a chance.
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
[X] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
[X] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
[X] [Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)
Dutch
Bored Spearman of the Wind
- Location
- CET
Rousseau? What are you doing here?
DevilsAdvocate
Always follow the golden rule.
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
I meant for Us, not for our people, but for us players.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Anyway, a few things that happen if we choose the emancipation option.
Black soil will become needed, because Mill becomes too expensive. This will force the issue again.
Chariots will become near unaffordable.
Mills will become uneconomical.
Cement becomes uneconomical.
Raise army becomes very hard.
Forget about salt gifts.
Black soil will become needed, because Mill becomes too expensive. This will force the issue again.
Chariots will become near unaffordable.
Mills will become uneconomical.
Cement becomes uneconomical.
Raise army becomes very hard.
Forget about salt gifts.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [PP] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [PP] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [PP] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [PP] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
[X] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
[X] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
[X] [Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
[X] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
[X] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
[X] [Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)
And the players can make the same argument.
Theunderbolt
"Prepare for trouble..."
- Location
- USoA
I like big dams and I cannot lie~
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Pragmatism? But the big expensive version of the dam isn't pragmatic. We gain very little in terms of efficiency, and even if the half-exile reform doesn't win the increased cost will massively curtail our options next turn. I don't think you're voting for pragmatism but rather for a poorly thought out backlash against perceived whiteknighting.
- Location
- Australia
Explain. It only says that suppression has an increased Stability cost, not that ignoring results in loss of Stability. If anything it says that it lets us easily ignore quests.
- Location
- Canada
[X] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
Greater Justice will be easy to regain, humans have a inherent dislike for unfairness but gravitate towards xenophobia. We'll address the half exiles issue once again in the future.
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
Greater Justice will be easy to regain, humans have a inherent dislike for unfairness but gravitate towards xenophobia. We'll address the half exiles issue once again in the future.