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Paths of Civilization

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[X][Main] Dam
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony x2
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ x2
[X][Secondary] Survey
[X][Guild] Plant Poppy
[X][Guild] Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Snail Cultivation
 
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*Checks in one more time before going to bed.*
notgreat said:
What's the need for the 2x Expand Econ? We don't want our econ to be overflowing right now since our LTE would be killer. One is probably a good idea to make sure we have space next turn, but two means adding +24 econ this turn (2 from us, 2 from Balanced. 6 econ per secondary)
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We have too many actions and not enough Econ to use them all, simply put.
PrimalShadow said:
I see.

In that case, I believe that your original claim is unsupported, and we have seen ZERO evidence that it "boosts loyalty for a much shorter term than influence".
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I literally provided evidence in the post you quoted, which you conveniently left out of your quote. I couldn't provide a source because that would mean a direct quote from AN for it to be viable and I am not searching through dozens of posts to see if he has outright said that is what it does to us. I do not want to spend half an hour searching through this thread when I can easily point to something else.

If by source you meant any evidence at all, then you quoted a very specific part of my post to make it seem like you were right.

There have been many times where the best we have had is circumstantial evidence, and what I provided was far more than what we normally get.

If you want AN to literally tell you all the pitfalls of every single action and how they might not do what we want them to do as opposed to us testing them out and experimenting with them, then I think you're going to be in for a major disappointment. That has never happened and his response has almost always been 'take it a few times to figure it out'.
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x2
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Secondary] Survey Lands
[12][Secondary] Expand Econ x2
[X][Guild] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild] Plant Poppies x2
[X][Guild Secondary] Plant Cotton

I like the Docks/Poppies/Cotton combo, primarily because it gets us working on more boats some more which is needed to deal with our overseas colonies in the long term.
 
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[X][Main] Dam
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony x2
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ x2
[X][Secondary] Survey
[X][Guild] Plant Poppy
[X][Guild] Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Snail Cultivation
 
Glassware said:
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x2
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Secondary] Build Roads
[X][Guild Main] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild Main] Build Docks
[X][Guild Secondary] Plant Cotton

I like the Docks/Poppies/Cotton combo, primarily because it gets us working on more boats some more which is needed to deal with our overseas colonies in the long term.
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2 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 3

4 + 3 + 5 + 3
7 + 8

15

You're going to starve with that plan.
 
[X][Main] Dam
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony x2
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ x2
[X][Secondary] Change Policy -Passive (Forestry + Forestry ->Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild] Plant Poppy
[X][Guild] Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Snail Cultivation

I like this plan, but I substituted in a policy switch for the Survey, as I think that's pretty key to get our huge infrastructure backlog addressed.
 
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Thanks for checking the math, @PrimalShadow . Truth be told, I was on the bus, so could not care enough to check the math from the phone - just threw out the vote to figure out priorities.

[X][Main] Great Hall Annex
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Survey Lands
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild] Plant Poppy
[X][Guild] Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Snail Cultivation
Expenses:
Econ: -4 (Great Hall x2) -2 (Influence) -3 (Poppy) -4 (Snails) = -13.
Wealth: -2 (Trade Mission) -2 (Influence) = -4.
Income:
Econ: +6(Expand Econ)+12 (Balanced Main Expand Econ) = +18
Wealth: +7 (Poppy) + 4 (Snails) = 11.

Net: +5 Econ, + 7 Wealth, no negatives in either. Result: 19 Econ, 11 Wealth.
Problems addressed: 2/4 Great Halls for government upgrade, trade with Salt King continues (counts as NOMADS addresses), markets and baths will be done in time, mild support of subordinates, snails have potential of becoming signature good (red-dyed flag and all).
Problems unaddressed: connectivility and feeding capital aka The Dam. Reasoning: with AN name-dropping Pre-Palace crisis, where Rulwyna was the only reason we survived, I consider government upgrade to be a matter of utmost urgency. Thanks to stat crunch we cannot do it here and now, but we can do it next turn.

Okay, here's a problem either I misunderstand or y'all are missing:


Academia Nut said:
"Fascinating. The chieftain expects tremendous trade with us, doesn't he?" Uvothyn asked.

"I expect so," the man stated.

"Trade across the roads to the east is going to be a gigantic pain, isn't?" The king asked.

"Yup."

"We should figure out some method of river trade to keep the maniacs over there trading instead of raiding, shouldn't we?"

"Sounds reasonable."
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Trade must flow. Therefore, Trade Missions to them are warranted. Unless we want to bet on HH+Balanced doing trade missions for us?
I mean, it's GH or Dam if we want to Influence (we want to), but unless you think provinces/subordinates will do it for us, we need trade mission.
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ x2
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)

I don't think that messing around when it comes to Economy is very smart. Taking it all the way down to 1 is a recipe for disaster.
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x2
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Secondary] Build Roads
[X][Guild Main] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild Main] Build Docks
[X][Guild Secondary] Plant Cotton
 
Andres110 said:
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ x2
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)

I don't think that messing around when it comes to Economy is very smart. Taking it all the way down to 1 is a recipe for disaster.
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DragonParadox said:
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x2
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Secondary] Build Roads
[X][Guild Main] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild Main] Build Docks
[X][Guild Secondary] Plant Cotton
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You guys added another needless variation on the Dam megaproject.
 
[X][Main] Build Roads
[X][Secondary] Grand Hall Annex {S}
[X][Secondary] Grand Hall Annex x2 {S}
[X][Secondary] Distribute Land
[X][Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure +Infrastructure)
[X][Guild] Plant Poppy
[X][Guild] Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Snail Cultivation

[X][Main] Expand Econ
Just in case the maths wrong


The distribution of lands would serve to both spread out the elites a bit, and most importantly, give more incentive for intermingling and mixing between the various notables and people of the Empire. This is an important part of creating a strong unified identity and for tying the empire togather, as well as preventing any ideas of disdain or contempt for certain parts of the populace from emerging.

Next, it alows for independent investment and development of land, and the spending of resulting wealth in either more investments or in social or familial favours and obligations, such as landing extra sons or contributing to infrastructure and projects for status.

Most importantly, the sale of lands will quickly erode the provincial identity of the notables, since it would incentive intermarriage and alliances between the core and provincial elites, and help facilitate the spread of any innovation and the drive for said innovation, for these lands serve a commercial purpose afterall. Not to mention the good likelihood of causing decent internal movements and migrations, as people and thier clients move around to different lands.

Lastly, it fits remarkably will with the new greatly expanded hall. Be it a high court or a parliament, having landed notables intermarried with the urban elites and a highly developed royal seat will do miracles for unity and increasing the kings influence via cultural forces. It's the first step of Pax Ymar, and making everyone want to be like the Valleyhome folks.

And don't forget, we have a heroic king, and a recovering empire, there'll hardly be a better time to restructure lands.

As for the snails, beside the fact that it's a mythical never taken action. The experience gained from that level of water engineering, and the possible innovation, will be invaluable in the damn building. Dams afterall, are very dangerous things if made with the slightest error.
 
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bluefur87 said:
If by source you meant any evidence at all, then you quoted a very specific part of my post to make it seem like you were right.
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"Source" means anything official at all, yes. The bit about us having a reaction for Influence counts as a valid source, even if its quality as evidence is sorely lacking. Note that I did mention it in a later followup for that very read.

You saying "that is how it was explained to me" does not constitute evidence. That is hearsay at best.

bluefur87 said:
There have been many times where the best we have had is circumstantial evidence, and what I provided was far more than what we normally get.
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No, normally we base our beliefs on far more solid things. Here, what you have is a highly specific mechanical claim: that the loyalty effect of Support actions is more temporary than the loyalty effect of Influence actions. The sum total of your evidence is our latest reaction offered us to do Influence, which is moderate evidence for an Influence being better in our situation, which in turn is minuscule evidence for that specific effect.

Maybe Influence actions have a special effect that reduce the chance of hostile actions for a generation; that makes perfect sense narratively, since it is our people taking up important roles. Maybe part of the problem with our western subordinates is that they are diverging culturally. Maybe Influence actions give us more intel about what the specific problems are. Any of these explain our King offering the choice of an Influence reaction instead of a Support reaction, and they are no less likely then your pet theory.

bluefur87 said:
If you want AN to literally tell you all the pitfalls of every single action and how they might not do what we want them to do as opposed to us testing them out and experimenting with them, then I think you're going to be in for a major disappointment.
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No. I want people to not state wild conjecture as fact. Though you are right about one thing: chances are, I'm in for a major disappointment.
 
[X][Main] Dam
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony x2
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ x2
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure +Infrastructure)
[X][Guild] Plant Poppy
[X][Guild] Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Snail Cultivation
 
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On second thought, I messed up on one big thing: we are trading with people in Horse Mountains, not Salt Sea itself. Which means Dam is actually a step in that direction. I forgot it.

[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Tinriver Colony
[X][Secondary] Expand Econ
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex: Great Hall Expansion
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild] Expand Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation


Expenses:
Econ: -2 (Dam) -2 (Influence) -2 (Grand Hall x1) -3 (Poppy) -4 (Snails) = -13.
Wealth: -2 (Trade Mission) -2 (Influence) = -4.
Income:
Econ: +6(Expand Econ)+12 (Balanced Main Expand Econ) = +18
Wealth: +7 (Poppy) + 4 (Snails) = 11.

Net: +5 Econ, + 7 Wealth, no negatives in either. Result: 19 Econ, 11 Wealth.
Problems addressed:
  • 1/4 Great Halls for government upgrade,
  • trade with Salt King continues (counts as NOMADS addressed, to a degree?),
  • markets and baths will be done in time,
  • mild support of subordinates,
  • snails have a potential of becoming signature good (red-dyed flag and all).
  • Dam started
Problems unaddressed:
  • government upgrade is moving a bit too slowly.
  • not enough army upgrades or fortification
  • no roads (connectivity)
  • no docks (connectivity, western subordinates)
Reason for "no docks in secondary guild slot": I don't want to see Econ 0, even if it is not, strictly speaking, starvation-level.
 
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[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x2
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x3
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x4
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild Main] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild Main] Build Docks
[X][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
 
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maximillian said:
[X][Main] Build Roads
[X][Secondary] Grand Hall Annex {S}
[X][Secondary] Grand Hall Annex x2 {S}
[X][Secondary] Distribute Land
[X][Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure +Infrastructure)
[X][Guild] Plant Poppy
[X][Guild] Snail Cultivation
[X][Guild Secondary] Snail Cultivation


The distribution of lands would serve to both spread out the elites a bit, and most importantly, give more incentive for intermingling and mixing between the various notables and people of the Empire. This is an important part of creating a strong unified identity and for tying the empire togather, as well as preventing any ideas of disdain or contempt for certain parts of the populace from emerging.

Next, it alows for independent investment and development of land, and the spending of resulting wealth in either more investments or in social or familial favours and obligations, such as landing extra sons or contributing to infrastructure and projects for status.

Most importantly, the sale of lands will quickly erode the provincial identity of the notables, since it would incentive intermarriage and alliances between the core and provincial elites, and help facilitate the spread of any innovation and the drive for said innovation, for these lands serve a commercial purpose afterall. Not to mention the good likelihood of causing decent internal movements and migrations, as people and thier clients move around to different lands.

Lastly, it fits remarkably will with the new greatly expanded hall. Be it a high court or a parliament, having landed notables intermarried with the urban elites and a highly developed royal seat will do miracles for unity and increasing the kings influence via cultural forces. It's the first step of Pax Ymar, and making everyone want to be like the Valleyhome folks.


As for the snails, beside the fact that it's a mythical never taken action. The experience gained from that level of water engineering, and the possible innovation, will be invaluable in the damn building. Dams afterall, are very dangerous things if made with the slightest error.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


The flock lives once more!
 
veekie said:
Looking at current standing quests:
-Patricians (6 {12}) - Power: Add or subtract their faction power from factions they are supporting/opposing. Objective: Build 0/4 Great Hall Annexes within 3 turns Reward: Government upgrade

Cost: [Secondary] Great Hall(Econ 2, Culture 2)x4

Guild (5) - Power: Half faction power added to Max Wealth. Objective: Have a level 3 Ironworks within 3 turns. Failure: -1 Stability

Cost: [Secondary] Block Housing(Econ 3, Tech 3) x2, [Secondary] Ironworks(Econ 3, Tech 3, Forest 1) x2

Ow, because we'd need to shove in another bath and aqueduct right after. Just fail it personally.

Traders (2) - Power: Add or subtract faction power modifier to all innovation rolls. Objective: Have Naval power 3 or above within 2 turns. Success: +1 Naval [1/2]

Cost: [Main] Econ 3, Wealth 5, Martial 3
It has also been highlighted as very important soon, due to Freehills and Western Ymaryn contesting the Black Sea.

Yeomen (2)- Power: Adds faction power to secondary Martial Objective: Have 30 EE within 3 turns. Failure: -1 Stability [1/2]

They can probably go sod off once we get enough Stabbility to ignore it.

Priests (2)- Power: Adds faction power to RA. Objective: Have a new level 2 temple somewhere within 2 turns. Success: +1 RA tolerance. Failure: -1 Stability

Cost: Temple(Econ 3, Culture 3) x2

Urban Poor (4) - Power: +1 Max Legitimacy every 3 full power. Objective: Have a Level 2 market and a Level 1 market in another city within 2 turns. Success: Grand Bazaar Megaproject completion, no faction power increase

Cost: Market(Wealth 3, Culture 3) x2

We currently have 1 Infrastructure policy running. It won't help anything on its own. We literally cannot afford to build everything manually. Infrastructure policy then must return.
We have enough of a forestry buffer that we can commit to turning the next 2 passive policies to Forestry once the cities come back.

[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Great Dam x2
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Passive (Forestry + Forestry -> Infrastructure + Infrastructure)
[X][Guild Main] Plant Poppies
[X][Guild Main] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation

Okay lets see the costs on this:
-Dam - 2 Econ
-Dam(fused secondaries) - 2 Econ
-Annex - 2 Econ, 2 Culture
-Policy change - Free
-Poppies - 3 Econ, 3 EE.
-Kilns - 2 Econ 2 Wealth, 1 Tech
-Snails - 1 Econ

And the incomes:
-Poppies - 1 Mysticism, 7 Wealth
-Snails - 1 Wealth 1 Culture

Available spent stats(costs included, income not included):
-Econ 13, Culture 12, Wealth 4, Tech 24
Total costs(income not included):
-Econ 12, Culture 2, Wealth 2, Tech 1
Lowest point possible:
-Econ 1(provinces will not spend Econ), Culture 10, Wealth 2, Tech 23

Total action profit(incoming income not included):
-Mysticism 1, Wealth 8, Culture 1

End Wealth: 11

That gives us SOME wealth next turn once the passive cashes in, which lets us rush the Warships. We can hope the passives prioritize the Market to generate Wealth and getting the Bazaar.

This is tentative, pending all sums being correct!
The key here is something PrimalShadow had been harping on for a long time now: Passives are really freaking good at making extended projects.

Also the only way we're going to be breaking even on Econ here is if we fused secondaries for the Dam. Annexes and all that costs too much.

Goddamned needle threading, I got nearly nothing I wanted out of this plan x.x
Theres also basically no way to Influence or Support subordinates without crashing SOMETHING. Urgh.
No roads even, FFS.

Anyway, work calls. Get back to this if theres more info.
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Modified a bit.
Added the missing secondary action without eating too much Econ by fusing it for another Dam progress. This puts us 1-3 actions from Dam completion.
Also shifted Kilns to Docks, which still fits in Wealth budget.

Yes, this means the Great Hall is delayed a turn, but thats what the 2 Infrastructure passives are going to be helping with after they rush the Market for us.

For new planners, Expand Econ does not help, the lowest point matters for triggering Order of Operations, not the total.
 
But seriously tho, why does everybody not heed "Trade must flow" of the update?
veekie said:
Modified a bit.
Added the missing secondary action without eating too much Econ by fusing it for another Dam progress. This puts us 1-3 actions from Dam completion.
Also shifted Kilns to Docks, which still fits in Wealth budget.

Yes, this means the Great Hall is delayed a turn, but thats what the 2 Infrastructure passives are going to be helping with after they rush the Market for us.

For new planners, Expand Econ does not help, the lowest point matters for triggering Order of Operations, not the total.
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1. Traaaaade Mission. To the Forshuh or whatever.
2. No Influence/10.
 
[X][Secondary] Distribute Land
[X][Secondary] Distribute Land x2
The time has come and when we have a heroic king and are restructuring after a disaster is the time to do rather then when a faction forces it.
 
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