And then we get a PSN trigger and drop back to safe levels.



You sure we would get that wealth by the midturn?
Last Guild Panic Trigger gave us a main turn to main turn span to work in, though we solved it right there and then. There's no indicator of delayed income here, which is always marked.
How can we do that if we lend the Banners out to suppress monotheists in the Highland Kingdom?
We can deploy our core army if we wanted here. Transitioning them to core support is thus, an available option.
 
My concerns are that you have the Gold Mine in a guild action and I don't remember confirmation from AN that it was. I may be forgetting that though. AND in the case it isn't I think replacing the PG with it doesn't cause too many issues.
*shrugs*. Most of the other plans seem to be making this assumption, and @veekie made a convicing case about word of AN implying that it would count. If it turns out to have been in error, we will obviously have to adjust the plan.

Only other issue is we don't know how Cent Cap loss from too many provinces rounds so doing both a Free City and integrate subordinate may simply move our range but leave us still in red. Not sure though.
Well, we only have to deal with this issue by end of next turn since the penalties kick in at start of turn, and that will give us another 2 points of room to work on.
 
[Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x2
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x3
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x4
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x5
[X] [HK] Offer to send military aid
-[X] [HK] Offensive Policy
 
Okay time to change my vote!
[X] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
I have arbitrarily decided to side with this option instead.

[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)

[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)x2
Adding another city support to my choices on our current policies. Forestry is not a bad choice, but I think I prefer this.
 
What's so hard about making sure a secondary is preserved for roads/watchtowers, I know you thought the thread can save a secondary for forest but so far we have shown a distinct lack of consistent discipline.
Well clearly it is REALLY DAMN HARD, give how much trouble we have doing it. You know it isn't because we are irrational and undisciplined, right? It is because fundamentally, those things present lower returns than actions that resolve immediate issues.

For example, we could Expand Forests this turn... but it would mean we didn't get to integrate Gulvalley for the extra Econ/Martial and the new action. Or that we don't get to make a Free City to get all the Free City bonuses and decrease strain by 1. Or that we have to do BOTH, if we want a main forest.




It is really frustrating as a plan-maker when people keep blaming us for not including X, Y and Z. We would if we could, damn it. If you have a concrete idea for what we can swap out to make room for the thing you want, sure; let us know and we can discuss it. But stop demanding that we add things without any mention of what you want us to give up, instead.
 
[X][Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[X][Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X][Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
 
@Academia Nut will integrating gullvalley help with our centralization issue, neutral, or will make us implode?

A gold mine is a guild action, right?
I believe that the only way it could worsen our cent situation is if it only has 1 province, but provides 2 or more IC progress to us, and the cent tolerance penalty from too many provinces rounds up.

Otherwise, we'll lose 1 cent for each province it gives. We'll lose at most one tolerance for provinces (i'm pretty sure it can't give more than two, with its small size). For every IC its roads progress gives us we'll gain 1 cent. However, since we're at 17 IC already, if we gain at least one IC, we'll gain an extra Tolerance from hitting 18 IC.

So some different possibilities:
1 Province, 1 IC -> net 0 cent (-1 from new province, +1 from IC) and 0 tolerance (-1 province limit, +1 from hitting 18 IC)
1 Province, 0 IC -> net 0 cent: (-1 from new province) and 0 tolerance (-1 province limit)
2 Provinces, 1 IC -> net -1 cent (-2 from new provinces, +1 from IC) and 0 tolerance (-1 province limit, +1 from hitting 18 IC)
2 Provinces, 2 IC -> net 0 cent (-2 from new provinces, +2 from IC) and 0 tolerance (-1 province limit, +1 from hitting 18 IC)

All of those are safe.
Only this isn't:
1 Provinces, 2 IC -> net +1 cent (-1 from new provinces, +2 from IC) and 0 tolerance (-1 province limit, +1 from hitting 18 IC)
 
For the record, there is no way for Integrating Gulvalley to worsen our overcentralization.

We know that integrating a provinces right now gives:
-1 Cent (not enough roads)
-1 Max Cent (too many provinces)
Thus, we wouldn't move relative to our Max Cent.


"But wait!", you say. "What if Gulvalley has some roads build?"
Well. In that case, it doesn't cost us that -1 Cent... but it ALSO restores a point of Max Cent, since roads go from 17 (=7 Max Cent) to 18 (+6 Max Cent).

So however things play out, don't expect Gulvalley to factor into the Overcentralization situation. Except perhaps in that it gives us LTE, which may change how many True Cities we form.
 
Well clearly it is REALLY DAMN HARD, give how much trouble we have doing it. You know it isn't because we are irrational and undisciplined, right? It is because fundamentally, those things present lower returns than actions that resolve immediate issues.

For example, we could Expand Forests this turn... but it would mean we didn't get to integrate Gulvalley for the extra Econ/Martial and the new action. Or that we don't get to make a Free City to get all the Free City bonuses and decrease strain by 1. Or that we have to do BOTH, if we want a main forest.




It is really frustrating as a plan-maker when people keep blaming us for not including X, Y and Z. We would if we could, damn it. If you have a concrete idea for what we can swap out to make room for the thing you want, sure; let us know and we can discuss it. But stop demanding that we add things without any mention of what you want us to give up, instead.
I never once blamed you and my plans nearly always include roads or voting for a defence passive when available its just that they never gain traction until a crisis hits or we do it once or twice and then forget about it. The lack of discipline I'm referring to are the actions our provinces will never be able to take that's crucial for us to do and any civilization to have.
 
Analysis and Diffcheckers -- "Curious Developments"​

Diff Checker (Civ Sheet)
Diff Checker (Civ Sheet BBCode)

@Academia Nut @veekie @PrimalShadow @BungieONI @zamin
General
Diplomacy 18 [+4]
-Intrigue 5
Economy 12 (+12) [-13+6]
-Sustainable Forests 25{28}/28
-Econ Expansion 4 [+13-6] [Overcrowding Min: -6]
Martial 2 (+1) {6}
-Light Cavalry 1
Naval 0 (+0+1)
Wealth 7 [+3]
+2.5 Salt
+2 = 2 Strategic
+4 = 4 Luxury
-1+2 Units
-5 Maintenance
-1 Fees
Total: +3
Econ 18 -> 12 (+12)​
18 - 6 (Aqueduct Lv 2) = 12 + (+10) (Expand Econ) + (+2) (Refugees)
Since this is something of a sub-phase within the midturn, the econ we got is technically not processed yet, instead we'll get it by next update, assuming next update is the start of the next main turn and not a war phase.
Also, note how much worse our econ/turn is with 3 extra cities D=
EE 9 -> 4​
9 - 10 (Expand Econ) + 1 (Aqueduct) + 6 (Aqueduct Refund) - 2 (Refugees) = 4
Blegh. Level 2 aqueducts only give +1 EE, and refugees took us down exactly low enough to activate another city and end up overcentralized :(
Martial 3 -> 2 (+1)​
3 - 1 (War Losses) = 2 + (+1) (Veterancy) = 3
War cost us one of our few points of martial, but at least it also hardened the remaining troops enough that we didn't lose it permanently
Naval 1 -> 0 (+0+1)​
1 - 1 (War Losses) = 0 + (+0+1) (Veterancy) = 0 (+0+1)
Same for Naval, though replenishing ships takes longer, and wont be done until next midturn, if i'm reading that right
Wealth 5 -> 7​
5 + 2 (Mercenaries and/or War) = 7
Presumably either our Mercenaries paid out an extra time from their contract, or we got some loot from beating the pirates? Or maybe just a bit from trade resuming? *shrug*

Cultural
Culture 24 [+5]
Mysticism 24 (+5) [+3-3]
Tech 18 (+7) [+1-1]
Prestige 90
Extra cities gives us an extra per turn culture, at least.

Tech 20 (+5) -> 18 (+7)​
20 - 2 (Expand Econ) = 18 + (+5) (Pending Refunds) + (+2) (Expand Econ Refunds) = 20 (+7)
Thankfully, expand econ gives refunds on a secondary action basis, so no permanent tech loss here. Lots of refunds that should come in before we choose actions again. Tech should fill up and overflow by 1, which combined with the mysticism +5 we've got, should overflow into diplo and max it out, so we should have Culture, Mysticism, Tech, Diplo, and Econ all maxed at the start of next turn.

Prestige 88 -> 90​
88 + 2 (Games + War?) = 90
Not sure how much was from the war and how much was from the games, but we've hit 90 prestige :)

Stability
Stability 3 (emboldened)
Legitimacy 3 (regular max)
PiA at least means the single bit of refugees we ate had no chance to hit our stability.
Also note that the urban poor faction's new power means that we're no longer at our actual max on legitimacy. We can now take it up to 4! We can still get golden ages at stab 3, and otherwise have no penalties from "only" being at legit 3, but we can go higher now if we so choose, which gives us more of a buffer and presumably gives bonuses much like going lower than 3 gives penalties.

Organizational
Centralization 7
Hierarchy 7
Religious Authority 8
Cent 9 -> 7​
9 - 2 (Personal Stewards) = 7

Statuses
King of the Hill: You are the most prestigious polity around, gaining you +1 Diplomacy a turn, but all other groups gain the 'Take the Crown' casus belli
Efficient Economy:
+1 Wealth/turn while above Econ 10
Panem: All True Cities and Free Cities cost an additional -1 Econ each per turn as additional food is distributed to the urban poor. Urban Poor faction adds faction power to Urban challenge rolls
Trelli Naval Dominance: The Trelli are the only major naval power in the area and are able to extract "protection" fees from merchants. Build up your navy or war with them to knock it off
Overcentralized: Losing a Main Action due to bureaucratic paralysis, as well as -2 Wealth and -2 Econ from mismanagement
Good news: We got rid of "Disrupted Trade" by taking out the pirate kingdoms :)
Bad News: in exchange we got a minor bad status for having no naval (Trelli Naval Dominance), and we had so many cities reactivate that we are overcentralized D= Its a pretty terrible status, and made worse by our econ type, which doubles the penalties from it.

Periphery States (14/13+4) (Loyalty [L], Dependence [D], Effectiveness [E])
Hitting 90 prestige means one more periphery slot :) We've got 3 free slots to either fill with FCs/Mercs/Marches/etc, or as buffer to spend prestige on golden age innovations.

Blood Rain Banner Company (Mercenary Company) - Can be hired to other kingdoms for wealth, or maintained to boost Martial capacity (L: 4/5, E: 4/10)
As mentioned in the narrative, beating the pirates mulched up our new merc company, they lost 1 loyalty and 2 effectiveness :(
Myranyn was most displeased with the reports coming out of the far west. His grand reforms had become something of a laughing-stock, given that the new Banner Company raised at his urgings had been absolutely ravaged by the pirate clans, leaving him in a rather poor position politically, given that he defanged the rural militias by promising that there would always be a core of professional warriors at the ready to pounce upon enemies in the period between the beginning of a conflict and the mustering of the levies, only for his vaunted companies to either be away on foreign ventures or losing badly. There were growing concerns and fearful whispers that with the militias so depleted and the Banner Companies far from the core, the enemies of the People would surely pounce
Ouch, yeah, i suppose our recent poor showing militarily would give the reforms a bad reputation :(

Given that there were dark rumours that the trade mission the Heaven's Horse had sent out to the east out of concern for gathering danger had been wiped out by the Mountain Horse...
Fuckkk. So most likely either the Mountain Horse are becoming more hostile or there's a nomad horde out there making trouble...

Still, despite all of that, as king Myranyn knew very well the sort of power he now held. With a few words he could begin a mass levy and arming action, drawing upon the reserves of equipment stockpiled in palaces and fortifications to rapidly turn tens, possibly hundreds in the future, of thousands of men into warriors able to saturate a battlefield in bolts. Sadly, his peers didn't entirely agree, and there was already a major push in the council to begin freeing up funds to expand the Spiritbonded.

Myranyn Reforms Result: Mass Levy Active Policy
Mass Levy
- While this policy is active, the sum of Econ + Wealth + (Sum of Ironworks Levels) x2 added to Temp Martial Score one combat phase after policy activated, but Expand Econ and most Wealth generating actions disabled while this policy active. Otherwise acts as the Offensive Policy
...Well damn thats powerful o_O Dangerous, but powerful... And of course, its most dangerous when its weakest (at low econ and/or wealth), which is interesting... Would have been very nice to have had this during the Great Power War with the khemetri, thats for sure...

Patricians (5*) - Power: Add or subtract their faction power from factions they are supporting/opposing. Objective: Have Light cavalry at or above 3 within 1 turns. Success: Free equestrian tech
Well at least it got adjusted to "at or above" instead of "above"...

Guild (6) - Power: Half faction power added to Max Wealth. Objective: Have a Level 2 Ironworks within 2 turns. Success: Free random megaproject, no faction power increase
Interesting that this doesn't increase faction power for them...

Yeomen (2* {-3})- Objective: Have a new province within 3 turns. Success: Free Random Plant [Good] action [0/2]
Looks like we failed their previous quest early by way of "you literally dont have enough actions to succeed at this by the deadline anymore" :p This is a decent quest. Worst case, its got no failure penalty. Best case, we get some free stats and trade power...though i'm curious if it still eats EE? Presumably not, given "free". But yeah, we'll probably succeed at this, especially if we do decide to integrate gulvalley.

Priests (3)- Objective: Have maximum Econ within 2 turns. Success: Free Spiritual Value slot
This will succeed next update, when our pending econ comes in :)

Urban Poor (4) - Power: +1 Max Legitimacy every 3 full power. Objective: Have a Level 2 market and a Level 1 market in another city within 3 turns. Success: Grand Bazaar Megaproject completion, no faction power increase
Urban poor have matured and developed a power and HOLY SHIT is it a good one! =D They also got a new quest thats ALSO super amazing! =D Requires 12 progress of infrastructure to get it, but a free megaproject is always nice, and we do want marketplaces given how good they are for wealth; level 1 in redshore would give +1.5 wealth a turn on its own! Assuming lv2 gives at least the same bonus, the required markets listed here would be at least +4 wealth a turn.

Warning: The Patricians have decided that they are not failing their quest. They're proud like that, expect repeat performances.
Blegh :( AN confirmed in later posts that the Patricians will hijack actions if we're not going to be passing their quest or supporting them to make it not fail yet D= If only they could somehow take over/replace the action we lose from overcentralization and just use that for it... :/

Fortunately, that probably wouldn't be necessary. While the pirates clans had made laughingstocks of him through repeatedly handing embarrassing defeats to the Blood Rain Banner, Tinriver had basically devoured their land holdings, leaving them with no safe spaces to strike from along the coast. While some were certainly taking up the way of the bandit and raider, their ability to sea trade was over... of course their damned pirate 'king' had decided to go down swinging. Whether or not he had survived the battle was unknown - rumour had it he had and then went to sell his services to the Trelli in their conflicts to the south in the Saffron Isles - but he had crippled much of the remaining warships of the People.
Well at least that went well...no more pirates is good, and Tinriver sounds like it got a good influx of territory to get it started as a colony, so thats nice :) Having our navy crippled and the trelli with a naval hero is less good, but not too terrible.

The Trelli were taking advantage of this by charging 'tolls' to protect shipping, and with no warships to contest them...

Technically they were providing an actual service, but it was enough that if Myranyn really wanted to he could declare war over it. It would be profoundly stupid until they had a navy once more, but the option was there for future kings. Of course, if they had a navy worth a damn the Trelli would surely back off anyway.
Stupid trelli...not actually a big deal, 1 wealth a turn isn't much normally, and we'llget back to 1 naval by next midturn from veterancy refunds anyway...but its annoying right now, since we have a tight limit on wealth for next turn :( Also i suppose its possible we'll need more than 1 naval to break it... Still, shouldn't be a big problem except for this coming turn

In other news, the new charcoal kilns in Redshore were causing quite the stir, in that they were disrupting the production of black soil regionally. The kilns had such a high demand for fuel that they were outcompeting the latrine pits for forest debris. While the city itself produced a considerable amount of black soil from all of its waste production, there was overall a subtle shift in attitudes locally. The kiln workers saw themselves as artisans and guildsmen, performing a skilled trade, and they loudly objected to in any way being compared to half-exiles. Somewhat similarly, while the urban leatherworkers were also an artisan guild, they were not appreciative of being mistaken for half-exiles - although the half-exiles did do the work of collecting all of the exceedingly unpleasant materials required for the curing process, so the comparison wasn't entirely unfair. Still, the issue was starting to bubble up, and as king Myranyn should probably make some sort of proclamation on it.
Interesting. We had just been talking about how at some point we'll need to take black soil and trigger this issue, but turns out kilns are enough to trigger it o_O Talk about bad timing...

What to do about dirty artisans and half-exiles?
[] [Art] Do charcoalers and the like really need to be experts? (Efficient Charcoal Kilns become cheaper, no longer considered Guild actions, ???)
[] [Art] Ignore it (Black Soil production gains an additional Wealth cost)
[] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[] [Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)
First choice is pretty terrible. Even aside from the whole "make more of our workforce pseudo slaves" bit, kilns being guild actions is very useful.
Second choice is basically the "put it off completely" action, because adding wealth cost to an action we almost never take isn't a big deal.
Third (and to my knowledge the winning choice) is "improve things a bit, dont try to rework everything while dealing with all this other shit". Adding tech costs isn't terrible for most things, with our refund, but i'm sure some of the increases will be to ones that already have a tech cost, like kilns, and so we'll start having more of an actual tech drain. Urban poor power can be nice, their faction power to add max legit is great, but we do have to be wary of them hijacking actions or the like, or if they roll a bad quest...

You have many new cities online, choose five more passive policies
...Well that escalated quickly :V Specifically, we had 3 more come online this phase, and apparently we never gotthe policy for blackmouth activating last turn, and Redshore is a level 2 city now, which gives another. I believe our choices here are pretty well settled voting wise by now :p

Myranyn had just about decided that he had his legacy set after decades of labour, when a most peculiar visitor arrived at the palace, escorted by border guards who had checked his credentials.

The Highlanders, of all people, had sent an envoy. It seemed the the insular kingdom had something of a problem that they were blaming on the People and demanding that something be done about it.
...Interesting o_O

"Let me make sure I have this right," Myranyn said after hearing the issue at hand. "In the few trade caravans you share with us, the Harmurri, and the Khemetri, some Mylathads travelled back into your territory and began preaching. Only, your version of Crow is not just Creator but also King, and has much more authority and power among your conception of the divine than all your other gods and spirits put together, so when the Mylathads were talking about seeking Ultimate Truth, several of the converts among your people decided that your head of pantheon and the Truth were the same entity, to the point where they are proclaiming that there is only One God, One Truth. And your king was okay with because it enhanced his own power as your crown is closely tied to divine investment in the right to rule... right up until a splinter faction of these radicals decided that he was offering too many consolatory words towards the priests of other gods, and even began proclaiming that those who refuse to acknowledge their One God as the Only God are being mislead by charlatans and deceivers. And they are becoming increasingly vocal and unhinged in their beliefs and calling for violence. And your king has decided that this is our fault and is demanding some form of compensation or assistance to deal with the problem."
Huh. Monotheistic rebels, huh... That could be a problem o_O

your version of Crow
Also i find it interesting how even our king follows at least some tenants of Mylathadism, what with the "different religions' gods are just different interpretations of the same universal gods/truths" bit

"That is correct," the Highland emissary stated.

"I will speak with my advisors," Myranyn said, gesturing for the emissary to leave the Great Hall while he conferred over this strange request.

"Their king must be stupidly desperate," the war chief said scoffingly.

The foreign advisor considered for a moment before he said, "Actually, it is possible that this is a probing mission. They want to know if we are eager to jump on their offer, or if we will decline. If we decline, that is a strong indicator that we are too militarily weak to offer proper aid and thus it is safe for them to pounce, while if we accept this could be the lead up to an ambush."

"That's... suspicious, even for you," Myranyn said of his advisor.

"The Highlanders are known for their intrigue, or at least they were, so they may have a better idea of our situation than we do theirs. We should be cautious," the man offers with a shrug.

The spirit chief strokes his white beard contemplatively for a moment before he says, "I am not liking the sound of these new fanatics, and I worry that if we simply leave them be they might filter into our own territory and cause trouble. Seeking the Truth is fine, but disrespecting the lesser spirits can only lead to devastation."
Blegh, yeah, stupid highlanders and their intrigue... but also stupid fanatics and their potential trouble :(

Thinking it over a bit more, the war chief says, "Freehills are about ready to end their contract for the Banner Companies, we could transfer their contract to the Highlanders to help take over... or..."

"Or...?" Myranyn asked.

"Well, even if they know we are a bit weak in standing warriors, they probably can't appreciate what we have in the armouries. We could send over aid, and then just keep sending aid, until we've basically occupied their territory for them, and even if they have surprises in store for us they would be powerless to resist the raw numbers," the advisor explained.

"Devious. I like. Probably not going to do it, but I like that sort of thinking," Myranyn said while mentally making a note to get the man transferred somewhere with less authority.
...Interesting strategy indeed o_O

The Highlands Problem
[] [HK] Ignore them
[] [HK] Offer tribute to patch over the issue and improve their king's standing (Targeted Sec Salt Gift)
[] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[] [HK] Gold only
-[] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
[] [HK] Offer to send military aid
-[] [HK] No policy change
-[] [HK] Offensive Policy
-[] [HK] Mass Levy
Still, given our prediction for the turn:
Astrological Prediction: Those who help those in need will find themselves aided (90)
We should send help of some kind, without charging and without secret invasion tactics. Sending regular military aid with so little martial seems a poor decision, so mercs + goodwill it is, and i believe thats the winning vote by far :p

True Cities
[5/6 City Candidates, 2 Free Cities, 11 City Limit]
[Limit is (#Provinces + #LandedNonFreeCitySubordinates)/2]
[4 Non-Supported True Cites : -4 High Cent Tolerance]
[Cities activate when EE is at or below Threshold/2]​
-Valleyhome [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls, Capital, Palace] (19 EE Threshold)
-Blackmouth [Aqueduct, Baths, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls?] (19 EE Threshold)
-Sacred Forest [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls] (17 EE Threshold)
-Stallion Pen [Aqueduct, Mass. Walls] (13 EE Threshold)
-Valleyguard [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (8 EE Threshold)

-Lower Valleyhome [Aqueduct] (1 EE Threshold)

-Valleyhome [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls, Capital, Palace] (19 EE Threshold)
[20 (Base) + 5 (Infrastructure) - 6 (No Block Housing) = 19]

-Blackmouth [Aqueduct, Baths, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls?] (19 EE Threshold)
[19 (Inherit) - 4 (Penalty) + 4 (Infrastructure) = 19]

-Sacred Forest [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls] (17 EE Threshold)
[19 (Inherit) - 5 (Penalty) + 3 (Infrastructure) = 17]

-Stallion Pen [Aqueduct, Mass. Walls] (13 EE Threshold)
[17 (Inherit) - 6 (Penalty) + 2 (Infrastructure) 5= 13]

-Valleyguard [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (8 EE Threshold)
[13 (Inherit) - 7 (Penalty) + 2 (Infrastructure) = 8]

-Lower Valleyhome [Aqueduct] (1 EE Threshold)
[8 (Inherit) - 8 (Penalty) + 1 (Infrastructure) = 1]

-Redshore [Aqueduct x2, Governor's Palace, Baths, Block Housing, Sig. Walls] <Level 2 City>
-Redhills [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls]


-Greenshore - Capital [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Greenshore - Unknown City [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Western Wall - Capital [Aqueduct, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)

-Heaven's Hawk - Phygriftwyn [Aqueduct in progress 6/9] (In Subordinate)


Libraries:
[Total effect: 3 Mysticism Refund]​
-Sacred Forest (Temple, Megaproject, +1 Refund by itself)
-Valleyhome (True City)
-Valleyhome (Palace Annex x2 = 1 National Library)
-Stallion Pen (Temple)
-Redshore (True City)
-Amber Road (Temple) (In Subordinate)

Temples
[4 Total Temple Levels, 1 Natural Wonder]:​
-Sacred Forest in Sacred Shore (Lv 2)
-Dragon Graveyard in Stallion Province (Lv 2 + Natural Wonder)
-Horse Valley in Stonepen (Lv 1 + Lv 1 Observatory)
-Amber Road (Lv 1) (Subordinate)

Salt/Gold Production
[Support: 1 Trade Post, 1 Grand Docks]
[Total Effect: +2 Wealth/turn]​
-Southshore (Lv 1 Saltern)
-Northshore (Lv 1 Saltern)
-Heaven's Hawk (Lv 1 Salt Mine) (In Subordinate, Applies to Core Anyway)

Ironworks
[Effect on Expand Econ Secondary: +1 Econ, -1 EE, -1 Tech]​

-Redhills (Wonder)
-Redshore (Lv 1)

Governor's Palace:
[-1 Min Centralization Tolerance, -2 Max Centralization Tolerances]
[+2 Max Interconnectivity, +0 Admin-Free True Cities]
[+2 Temp Econ Resistance, +2 Max Safe Martial]​
-Blackmouth
-Sacred Shore
-Western Wall (In Subordinate)

Colossal Walls:​
None in Core or Subordinates


Interconnectivity (17/46)
[Can gain Cent from roads up to half of max IC value (23/46), any past that will be banked]
[+5 Max Centralization Tolerance. 0 Banked Centralization]
[Formula: 2 + 3*Full_Provinces + Governor's_Palaces]​

Provinces
[14 Full Provinces - 2 Extra Sec Player Action, 5 Sec Province Actions, 2 Main Guild Actions]
[Next Action increase: +1 Sec Province Action, +1 Sec Guild Action at 15 Provinces]

[In Progress Provinces]​
-Northern Blackriver [0/6]
-Far North-Eastern Redvalley [2/6] <Note: Unknown progress from "Religious Settlement" in Province>

[Subordinate Provinces]​
-Western Wall - 2? Provinces (0? Ready to Integrate)
-Greenshore - 3 Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Gulvalley - 1 Province (1 Ready to Integrate) [Expansion Blocked by Neighbors]
-Heaven's Hawk - 1 Province (1 Ready to Integrate) [March, may not be able to expand peacefully?]
-Txolla - 3 Provinces (2 Ready to Integrate) [Underdeveloped; can gain more provinces internally]
-Tinriver - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Thunder Speakers - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Seems Low, but they only get 2 actions?]
-Thunder Horse - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Same]
-Amber Road - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Immature Trading Post, cannot expand]

Stat Caps
[Base Cap - 24]
[Base is 10 + #Provinces]

[Wealth Cap - 23]​
-Base Value (+10)
-14 Provinces (+14)
-6 Guild Faction Power (+3)
-8 RA Mylathadysm (-4)

[Safe Martial Limit - 34 {36}]
[Number in {} is safe "non-primary" martial, which refers to the extra martial we gain from econ, listed in {} on the civ sheet]​
-Base Value (+10)
-14 Provinces (+14)
-2 Governor's Palaces (+2)
-Palace Arsenal Annexes (+1)
-Iron Age Census (+2)
-International Games (+5)
-Gymnasiums {+2}

Centralization Tolerances:
[Note: Being at a tolerance cap triggers penalties]
[Low Tolerance: - 2]​
-Government Base "Neutral" (0)
-Legacies (-1)
-2 Governor's Palaces (-1)
[High Tolerance: 7]​
-Government Base "High" (7)
-17 Interconnectivity (+5)
-Legacies (+2)
-14 Provinces (-1)
-4 Non-Supported True Cities (-4)
-2 Governor's Palaces (-2)

Miscellaneous​
-2 Secondary Gymnasium: +4 to Games Rolls, +2 Safe Non-Primary Martial
-Annex Limit: 11/18 [2 (Base) + 7 (#Provinces/2) + 9 (#LandedNonFCSubordinates)]
-Current Reformers Legacy Strength: 1/2 Refund
-Temp Econ Resistance: 9 [-1 (Gov Base) + 2 (Gov + 7 Cent) + 1 (Storehouse Annex) + 2 (2 Governor's Palaces) + 1 (Iron Age Census) + 4 (Mylathadysm @ 8 RA)]

-Updated City List (Redshore Aqueduct x2 as well as being "Level 2" in general, new cities activating, cent tolerance penalty increasing)
-Updated Cent Tolerances, including new knowledge straight from AN on exact tolerance values.
-Updated Temp Econ Resistance
-Renamed to Extended Projects like i originally had it named, since AN seems to prefer that as a spoiler title
-Annex limit is out of date on both the civ sheet and action list, with 14 provinces and 9 landed subordinates, we should have 18 limit (2 + 14/2 + 9)
-International Games participants list doesn't have Freehills listed yet.
-Shouldn't our stability and maybe legitimacy be colored green?
-<Super Minor> Greenshore has a listed max dependency of 4, when it should have changed to 5 after it was converted to a colony
-1. Can we use Guild Actions to build the gold mine?
-2. How many provinces would integrating Gulvalley provide? What sort of Road progress and stat gain should we expect?
-3. Does the cent tolerance penalty from going past 12 provinces round up? I.e. assuming gulvalley only gives 1 province still, would that lead to an extra cent tolerance penalty?
-4. Can we switch our mercenaries to being directly supported, even with sending them to the HK, and would that affect their effectiveness or their reinforcement ability any?
-5. Can we confidently assume that we'll have a PSN trigger next midturn, if we don't otherwise reduce centralization with our main actions?
-6. As a level 2 city, does Redshore also get a second Free City policy to use?
-7. While Roads and Governor's palaces don't round up in their bonuses to cent tolerance (roads) and administrative city support (Governor's palace), i don't suppose having both at 2/3rds of the way to a point in our favor cent tolerance wise can combine and make us not overcentralized? <3
-8. Just to be sure, will all of the pending stats other than naval come in before we choose main actions next turn? That seems to be what the civ sheet is saying, but sometimes it seems delayed more than expected (or vice versa).

Also, given the great increase in policies, and how much discussion there's been on planning for next turn and our stat constraints, i figured i'd add in a projected stat sheet for next turn:
So first, a list of my assumptions, and the changes to incomes/expenses to make it more clear where numbers are coming from:
-First, assuming that all the projected stats (i.e. the (+X) numbers) on the sheet, other than the naval, will be available next update/turn, before choosing actions. This should be the case, given AN's normal nomenclature, but just in case, i'm stating the assumption clearly :p
-Second, once we have an even number of forest policies, we'll have the forest and EE income/expense from them listed normally
-Diplomacy Income will increase by 1 due to the new diplomacy policy
-Diplomacy expenses will increase by 2 due to the new skullduggery policy
-Intrigue income will increase by 1 due to the new skullduggery policy
-Econ expenses will decrease by 2 due to the new city support policy
-EE income will decrease by 2 due to the new city support policy
-EE expenses will increase by 1 due to the new forest policy (technically increases by 0.5, but previous 0.5 wasn't listed)
-Forest income will increase from (currently unlisted) 0.5 to 1, due to the new forest policy
-Wealth income will decrease by 2 due to mercenaries not making money
-Wealth expenses will increase by 2 due to paying for said mercenaries
-Edit: Diplo income will increase by 2 due to goodwill mercenary income (Thanks @PrimalShadow for reminding me)
-Edit: Econ expenses will increase by 2 due to Overcentralization (Thanks @Kiba for pointing out this and the next two edits)
-Edit: EE income will increase by 2 due to Overcentralization
-Edit: Wealth expenses will increase by 2 due to overcentralization
-Edit: AN separated out the refugee income to occur later
-Edit: Added in special notation for efficient economy; its very much relevant to planning, but AN doesn't usually show it even when it'll apply.

General
Diplomacy 24 [+7-2]
-Intrigue 5 [+1]
Economy 22 (+2) [-13+6]
-Sustainable Forests 25{28}/28 [+0/+1]
-Econ Expansion 4 [+13-7] [Overcrowding Min: -6]
Martial 3 {6}
-Light Cavalry 1
Naval 0 (+1)
Wealth 7 [-3] (Note: Actually [-2] due to unlisted Efficient Economy)
+2.5 Salt
+2 = 2 Strategic
+4 = 4 Luxury
-3 Units
-5 Maintenance
-1 Fees
-2 Overcentralization
Total: -3

Cultural
Culture 24 [+5]
Mysticism 24 [+3-3]
Tech 24 [+1-1]
Prestige 90
 
Last edited:
I never once blamed you and my plans nearly always include roads or voting for a defence passive when available its just that they never gain traction until a crisis hits or we do it once or twice and then forget about it. The lack of discipline I'm referring to are the actions our provinces will never be able to take that's crucial for us to do and any civilization to have.

You see any room for non-emergency actions? I don't. Each action @PrimalShadow is proposing are either critical to our survival or accomplish some task to chase shinnies like megaproject rewards.

Oh, since the -2 econ come out of our passive income, we will really be able to achieve the Priest quest at the start of next turn, which is nice.

Integrating gullvalley will make the yeomen happy and give us 2 plant goods reward.
 
Last edited:
You see any room for non-emergency actions? I don't. Each action @PrimalShadow is proposing are either critical to our survival or accomplish some task to chase shinnies like megaproject rewards.

Oh, since the -2 econ come out of our passive income, we will really be able to achieve the Priest quest at the start of next turn, which is nice.
:rolleyes: because clearly I was talking about only this turn. Why don't we rewind back when we suffering from the SS and liquidity crisis where the goal was centralisation and increasing stability and instead of changing policy to restoration we refused to do so and instead rode the wave draining our actions into enforce justice. All I'm saying is that certain actions will never move because our provinces will never take them and we need to chip away at them one secondary at a time. We also shouldn't be so shy to switching policies when we lack a certain income or need to reduce centralization immediately. We can change to expansion next turn and It'll steadily reduce our centralization and give us the needed econ to support factions to finish off their quests.
 
If only they could somehow take over/replace the action we lose from overcentralization and just use that for it... :/
This would actually make a lot of sense. With the king overburdened, he delegates more to his helpers, who are of course Patricians and being pressured by their family and friends to get them the means to expand their horse clubs. So instead of the things the king would like they divert funds that the king would really like to keep to the aforementioned family and friends.
 
I never once blamed you
Sorry; that wasn't meant to be an accusation or anything like. Nobody has ever blamed me specifically for this; people just say things like "the thread/voters as a whole are so irrational; look at how they keep skipping <action>". <Action> Will vary widely depending on who is talking and who has last caused trouble in our society.

I am just peeved because I'm one of the people making plans, and I while I would love to include these things I can barely fit the stuff we absolutely need immediately, much less the half-dozen other priorities people have. Some want roads, some want watchtowers, some want trade missions, some want forests, and everyone says that the thread is irrational or unreliable because they didn't include the options they wanted.


Does that make sense?
 
-7. While Roads and Governor's palaces don't round up in their bonuses to cent tolerance (roads) and administrative city support (Governor's palace), i don't suppose having both at 2/3rds of the way to a point in our favor cent tolerance wise can combine and make us not overcentralized? <3
On this note, does the extra GP in our colony not contribute to this?
 
Sorry; that wasn't meant to be an accusation or anything like. Nobody has ever blamed me specifically for this; people just say things like "the thread/voters as a whole are so irrational; look at how they keep skipping <action>". <Action> Will vary widely depending on who is talking and who has last caused trouble in our society.

I am just peeved because I'm one of the people making plans, and I while I would love to include these things I can barely fit the stuff we absolutely need immediately, much less the half-dozen other priorities people have. Some want roads, some want watchtowers, some want trade missions, some want forests, and everyone says that the thread is irrational or unreliable because they didn't include the options they wanted.


Does that make sense?
It does but that's democracy for you, can you imagine if our civ got it and we had to juggle that as well. What do you think of switching over to an expansion policy so our provinces will lower centralization for us and give us a steady flow of econ so that we don't have to knife dance around it. It'll also give us space to build roads without fear of going over for a while. Although now that I think about it, a current agriculture passive would give us plus 1 econ which would help offset the current negative income as well.
 
-Diplomacy Income will increase by 1 due to the new diplomacy policy
-Diplomacy expenses will increase by 2 due to the new skullduggery policy
-Intrigue income will increase by 1 due to the new skullduggery policy
-Econ expenses will decrease by 2 due to the new city support policy
-EE income will decrease by 2 due to the new city support policy
-EE expenses will increase by 1 due to the new forest policy (technically increases by 0.5, but previous 0.5 wasn't listed)
-Forest income will increase from (currently unlisted) 0.5 to 1, due to the new forest policy
-Wealth income will decrease by 2 due to mercenaries not making money
-Wealth expenses will increase by 2 due to paying for said mercenaries
You forgot our Goodwill income.

What do you think of switching over to an expansion policy so our provinces will lower centralization for us and give us a steady flow of econ so that we don't have to knife dance around it. It'll also give us space to build roads without fear of going over for a while.
Strongly opposed.

The stated effect from Expansion Policy is terrible; I would strongly prefer Vassal Support, Infrastructure, or Defense, and I would actually prefer even City Support or Forestry despite generally opposing these two.

The unstated effect from Expansion Policy is ALSO terrible. We don't need people going out and settling new lands; that increases border conflicts and increases the size of our borders, both of of which I find undesirable. I'd take literally any other policy's unstated effect over that.


So no thank you.
 
@Academia Nut - on previous turns, Econ income only arrived at the start of the next turn, so you might want to consider writing the income as (+10+2).
It doesn't matter for planning, but it DOES matter for us hitting 24 Econ at end-of-turn and completing the priest quest. Also maybe for Golden Age bonuses.
 
Back
Top