Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ah right, I had thought they arrived together for some reason.
- Location
- Canada
That's false they only do that during passives when there is no more land to settle and I'm talking about active expansion policy which our provinces will take for us.
- Location
- Austria
It's almost as if we lack info gathering and thus have little to no idea what's going on around us.
Notice how we managed to not notice the religious tension from our religion in Highlanders? That's a centralized religion to boot. One would think we would have heard at least something from priesthood grapevine beforehand...
I presume that only applies if we lack internal lands to settle. We're looking at something like 19 open settlement slots before we integrate Gulvalley. If Expansion gives +1 EE, we have an internal reserve of something like 51 EE (based on known settlement locations with their relative EE value) before we're forced to start pushing our borders externally.
EE policy would be slowly filling up our internal borders. The thing is, for our current size, it would take 51 turns; slightly over 1,000 years!
- Location
- Austria
Faster after IW2 kick in, I presume; AN said after IW2 Agriculture changes from +1 Econ, -1 EE to +3 Econ, -3 EE, (-1 Tech?). I assume that this will change Expansion accordingly - to +3 EE/turn.
Still would need 300 years, but that's, honestly, not that much time; we are ~2200 years old at this point. 300 years is 15 turns or so.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Just gonna double check this.
15 years/threadmark * 30 threadmarks = 450 years.
So given what AN has said, its probably be between 300 and 450.
I want a calendar.
Oh! Sorry; you said "expansion policy", so since we have spent the last day voting on Passive Policies I thought that was what you meant. I see that you are instead talking about ACTIVE Expansion Policy.
I am much more warmly disposed towards that. The Expand Forest actions are quite useful, as are the Expand Econ actions. I do think the New Settlement actions are of very limited value, but they aren't terrible; I can live with them.
I still wouldn't turn off balanced for it, though. Maybe if we switched off of Balanced for some reason, I would be okay with changing back to Expansion Policy?
- Location
- Canada
That literally goes against what AN says for passives and active expansion policy is under the purview of our provinces so it won't go out and invade without the King's approval. If you want to turtle up then advocate for a defence policy passive or active.
- Location
- Austria
Uhhhh....
They will happily colonize stuff in a way that is technically not against the rules and let someone else (namely, us) deal with the fallout.
Communal values or no, "fuck you got mine" is a pretty persistent part of human psyche and decision making.
- Location
- United States
AN did say that Passive exapansion policy can lead to boarder disputes, so from that it can be assumed that the policy can make expansions outside of our current boarders.
- Location
- Canada
AN just said our passive expansion will fill up internal slots before going out and colonizing our borders so we don't need to worry about that for now. Active is the government settling lands.
- Location
- Austria
Oh and yes, AN explicitly said that yes, it can provoke border disputes because policy gives no shit about politics, it colonizes.
"for now" runs out deceptively fast.
Plus there are settlements our active policies take here and there.
- Location
- Canada
We have 19 internal settlements for that to ever be a problem and our provinces will not invade other countries on active policy. I'm arguing for active policy for the constant decentralization it will give us and help offset our negative econ income.
- Location
- Austria
Ah.
I am a fan of Balanced because...hm, just look at this turn's perfect timing of Study Alchemy+Ironworks for example of why Balanced is nice: it kinda complements whatever we are doing without getting in the way or forcing us to plan our acts around it.
It can finish up extended projects, can complemented projects with appropriate research, can always do us some Econ as Main, and so on.
It's immensely flexible and it does not force us into any particular behaviour. There are use cases for other policies, but.
- Location
- Canada
I want expansion so that we have the centralization space to build roads without worrying that we will hit red centralisation. Plus the amount of econ coming in will help offset our negative income from it for a short while.
- Location
- Austria
No, no, I understand why: cent drops and econ gains.
It's just that cent space offered by new settlements is a lie: it is gained by new settlements without roads after all. For starters. There are other concerns, but generally "drop Cent via new settlements to bring it back up via roads" should narratively result in the roads to places other than new settlements remaining in previous state.
The Wealth cost of Study Alchemy also put us in an extremely hard position next turn. Balanced doesn't instantly screw us over, but it doesn't look too far ahead either.
Besides, the biggest thing we're getting out of Balanced right now is a 'free' [M] Expand Econ every turn.
Expansion does that too:
The second thing that it does it forests. It could very well do us some good in order to go on this for a few turns to see what actions it does. We currently have 19 empty Settlement slots with more likely to come from Gulvalley. We know that Balanced doesn't build roads for us (the lack of which is currently one of our biggest problems), but expansion might.
All of the stuff that people want to fill up on internally are likely to be created by an active Expansion Policy. It's not likely to get us into too much trouble as we don't directly border too many people; most of our borders are filled in with various minor groups. Even then, the active Policy only applies to the core. Txolla stops any expansion out into the Lowlands and Western Wall checks us from spreading further around the Black Sea.
The only issue that could arrive is from Free Hill (who we are currently extremely close to and will likely soon be much more powerful than) and the Khemetri who are extremely far away of very inhospitable terrain. Neither of those are people we would likely antagonize, especially when we have so much internal room right now to fill up.
If we hit a Golden Age during the Mid-Turn or otherwise crawl out of our resource-strapped hole, we should look into this as a possibility.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well unfortunately doing expansion and building roads is kinda like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in it. You just move us around without actual progress.
The above is most of the reason I don't want to do roads + expansion policy active. Plus it exacerbates our over province limit issues, though that comes later since I think we already got the provinces from our land reform that gave us internal reorg.
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- Location
- Canada
Not necessarily once we hit 50% we no longer gain centralization from roads so we would be safe to to build them without worry hence why I said It'll help us offset our negative income for a short while. I don't want to max out our internal settlements just yet but those few turns we don't need to worry about econ means we would have more flexibility with our actions.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
This is what AN said about expansion policies. I'm certain that if they see neat land outside our borders, they will go and grab it.
I've found no mention of it prioritizing internal land. It seems logical to assume that it'll just pick what it likes most.
- Location
- Austria
> forests as active actions
You have my attention
More seriously, I want more new settlements; I don't know why, but I feel real uncomfortable with EE coming, narratively, from more and more people going into cities instead of us having new farmland (I mean, our main source of EE is by far True City refunds). It's just a gut feeling, but.
We need to get centralization to fifty percent before we can start building roads to our heart's content. The thing is, integrating Gullvalley will probably worsen our centralization limit instead of helping it.