Ultimately too much prosperity, too little centralization.
-
Going forward, links to content from Twitter (now X) will no longer be embedded. Pre-existing links should not be affected.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Ultimately too much prosperity, too little centralization.
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
Colony taxes
[] [SR] Money (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Wealth/turn each)
[X] [SR] Food (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Econ/turn each)
[] [SR] Warriors (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Martial/turn each)
[] [SR] Rotate governors (All periphery states with at least one province cost -1 Diplo/turn each turn, have Min. 2 Loyalty)
Harmysyn Reforms, next stage
[] [HS] Main Build Gymnasium (Does not advance Reforms, +1 Stability)
[] [HS] Prototype Weapon Storage (Palace Arsenal + Storehouse Annexes, Reforms advance)
[] [HS] Center Command on the Cities (Blackmouth becomes a Free City, Reforms advance)
[] [HS] Continue raising troops (Main Raise Army, Reforms advance)
[] [HS] Prototype Deployment Organization (2xSec Blackmouth Colossal Walls, Reforms advance)
[] [HS] Increase Professionalism (Found Mercenary Company, Reforms advance)
[X] [HS] Increase Iron production further (Redshore Ironworks [-3 Econ, -3 Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, Expand Econ additional +1 Econ, -1 EE, -1 Tech] + Sec Survey, Reforms advance)
[] [HS] Introduce an elite core (Sec More Spiritbonded + Sec Expand Econ, Reforms advance)
Army use
[] [Attack] No one
[] [Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[] [Attack] Red Banner
-[] [Attack] Dragon Banner
-[] [Attack] Both
--[] [Attack] To Trelli
--[] [Attack] To Freehills
--[] [Attack] To Western Ymaryn
[] [Attack] Support Western Ymaryn Against Storm Tribes
[X] [Attack] Attempt to take the Trelli Strait
Select new passive policy
[] [Policy] Agriculture (+1 Econ and -1 Econ Expansion/turn)
[] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[] [Policy] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[] [Policy] Armament (+1 Martial/turn)
[] [Policy] Patronage (+1 Culture/turn)
[] [Policy] Mysticism (+1 Mysticism/turn)
[] [Policy] Industry (+1 Tech/turn)
[] [Policy] City Support (2 Econ cost for True City support negated)
[] [Policy] Expansion (So long as there is land to expand into, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, reduces threshold to produce new provinces the longer active)
[] [Policy] Innovation (Extra 2 innovation rolls each turn, -1 Wealth)
[X] [Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[] [Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn) x1
[] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x1
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[] [SR] Money (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Wealth/turn each)
[X] [SR] Food (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Econ/turn each)
[] [SR] Warriors (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Martial/turn each)
[] [SR] Rotate governors (All periphery states with at least one province cost -1 Diplo/turn each turn, have Min. 2 Loyalty)
Harmysyn Reforms, next stage
[] [HS] Main Build Gymnasium (Does not advance Reforms, +1 Stability)
[] [HS] Prototype Weapon Storage (Palace Arsenal + Storehouse Annexes, Reforms advance)
[] [HS] Center Command on the Cities (Blackmouth becomes a Free City, Reforms advance)
[] [HS] Continue raising troops (Main Raise Army, Reforms advance)
[] [HS] Prototype Deployment Organization (2xSec Blackmouth Colossal Walls, Reforms advance)
[] [HS] Increase Professionalism (Found Mercenary Company, Reforms advance)
[X] [HS] Increase Iron production further (Redshore Ironworks [-3 Econ, -3 Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, Expand Econ additional +1 Econ, -1 EE, -1 Tech] + Sec Survey, Reforms advance)
[] [HS] Introduce an elite core (Sec More Spiritbonded + Sec Expand Econ, Reforms advance)
Army use
[] [Attack] No one
[] [Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[] [Attack] Red Banner
-[] [Attack] Dragon Banner
-[] [Attack] Both
--[] [Attack] To Trelli
--[] [Attack] To Freehills
--[] [Attack] To Western Ymaryn
[] [Attack] Support Western Ymaryn Against Storm Tribes
[X] [Attack] Attempt to take the Trelli Strait
Select new passive policy
[] [Policy] Agriculture (+1 Econ and -1 Econ Expansion/turn)
[] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[] [Policy] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[] [Policy] Armament (+1 Martial/turn)
[] [Policy] Patronage (+1 Culture/turn)
[] [Policy] Mysticism (+1 Mysticism/turn)
[] [Policy] Industry (+1 Tech/turn)
[] [Policy] City Support (2 Econ cost for True City support negated)
[] [Policy] Expansion (So long as there is land to expand into, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, reduces threshold to produce new provinces the longer active)
[] [Policy] Innovation (Extra 2 innovation rolls each turn, -1 Wealth)
[X] [Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[] [Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn) x1
[] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x1
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
Last edited:
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
I figure that we'll be far enough away from most of the Mediterranean civs that if they don't like us we'll just glare passive-aggressively at each other across the Not!Ionian Sea.
psh. What could possibly go wrong?
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
I miss those days... we strenuously opposed capitalism, actually researched things, accidentally slaughtered the nomads and became militarized... good old days.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The first big problem right out the gate that may come from the Not!Med is from the Saffron Islands which are in the Not!Aegean right past the straits(not the Not!Ionian) and are currently a gigantic clusterfuck a la Lowlands Mk II because the Trelli conquer-rolled them with mercs and then collapsed shortly thereafter meaning that place is a mess full of pirates.I figure that we'll be far enough away from most of the Mediterranean civs that if they don't like us we'll just glare passive-aggressively at each other across the Not!Ionian Sea.
psh. What could possibly go wrong?
In fact the entire Not!Aegean is probably full of pirates.
Then there is more direct contact with Khem, which is always nice. (Ohhhhh Khem-kuuuuuun~)
Then the people who live on the Aegean Peninsula are going to be new and interesting.
Like Tinriver being able to send exploratory missions and trade missions again instead of looking longingly at landgrabs.
Like restoring diplomatic contact with the Khemetri, which was too difficult for our provinces to do without controlling Trell.
Like culture pushing our values across the mediterranean via religion.
Like expanding the market to widen what we can get from trade, noting that we didn't even know about a market existing until we expanded sufficiently and picked up a trade value.
Like billing neighbors wealth per turn for strait access...or opening it to them for diplomacy.
Like using the largest natural trade center on the continent to extend intrigue networks internationally.
Like importing Khemetri grain to feed the cities.
Like having the ability to deploy our mercenaries out into the med for hire rather than being limited to our direct neighbors.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Easier for us to get them with the PiA bendy-straw.
In fact, couldn't we slurp up people from the entire Mediterranean if we had access?
Given that we're a large Near East empire, I vote we don't fuck with the Not!Greeks. It never went well for the Persians anyway.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
Then here's something that hasn't popped up yet for you to mull over:
This mid-turn, we had no regular options. For React, Refugees, and Personal Nature Stewards, we had exactly one option each that wasn't implosion next turn, so AN literally just chose them for us.
Does that sound like a good time to push our luck?
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Given our current stability issues you want bigger loses of it EVERY TURN?
It depends on our ship technology and our trade connection.
And I thought we were the Not!Greek. Seriously, we have philosophy, life of aretes, gyms, and even the Olympic!
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Well, no. Not right away. But it'd be fun to see if we could destabilize the entire Mediterranean world with our wacky vampire antics.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Indeed we could. And the Not!Black Sea which includes the Storm Tribes and Tin Tribes. And the Lowlands areas.
That's a lot of refugee possibles, though they are unlikely to trigger all at the same time. (If they did we'd be toast due the damage we likely suffered as well)
Same, not worth the trouble. Though funny thing is that we are probably more Not!Greek than they are! Would be weird if our values transmitting basically transformed the peoples on the Not!Aegean Peninsula into Not!Greeks.
I'm pretty sure the refugee thing was due to lack of volume of Refugees, but I can't be sure.
Last edited:
Xenophilic Not!Greek!
It was!
Then it lead into our current situation.
And everything was EVEN MORE AMAZING BECAUSE IT IS NOW ON FIRE AND I LIKE BASKING IN IT SO HELP ME CROW.
So far it seems like Golden Ages are inherently unstable because they cause so much innovation and social change that society can't keep up. So a Golden Age is going to be followed by a period of trying to get a handle on things, and if we successfully get a handle on all the things we'll probably catapult right back into a Golden Age.
Would a True Cities Econ drain help in transforming Trells demographics over time?
Cities had a high demographic churn until relatively recently, as represented by the Econ tax each causes. So if the Econ comes from Ymaryn core lands, it will take a few generations until their old culture is basically replaced by all those Ymaryn urbanites.
We could also put down a Temple in the area. In terms of travel it is still very close to the Core and can service our westernmost territories. Unless we first want a new temple closer to the lowlands, which is reasonable as well.
Cities had a high demographic churn until relatively recently, as represented by the Econ tax each causes. So if the Econ comes from Ymaryn core lands, it will take a few generations until their old culture is basically replaced by all those Ymaryn urbanites.
We could also put down a Temple in the area. In terms of travel it is still very close to the Core and can service our westernmost territories. Unless we first want a new temple closer to the lowlands, which is reasonable as well.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Maybe? West Wall and Greenshore should both have True Cities for their capitals, but the drain ain't doing any wonders for keeping them close from what I can see.
And cities still have a huge demographic churn and they likely will continue to do so for a couple more centuries.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
as far as securing our own base goes, a temple closer to the lowlands sounds like a better idea. We're already seeing trouble in that region that's arguably more severe, and a culture that is more distinct.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Penicillin and vaccines, if you mean not-deathtrap as positive population growth in cities discounting migration.
Yeah, but both of those are already heavily Ymaryn, so the difficulties with them are mostly governmental corruption.
AN said that Trell will be no end of trouble unless we basically kick out the former inhabitants, which is unlikely to happen.
But making sure the lands around Trell get a ton of Ymaryn Yeomen to farm means a steady inflow of cultural influence. Even more so that the heavy traffic the Straits see from all the Ymaryn ships passing through.
(I haven't had time to catch up with the thread. If this was already resolved, then nevermind.)
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
If we want exploration missions we can send them.
If we want to restore diplomatic replations we can send a trade mission to the Khem.
Why do we care about spreading our values to other nations?
More Wealth. Yawn.
Expend Intruge networks.. With our already bloated to-do list?
Ymaryn grow their own food. How far have we gone from our roots?
Better medical tech and even better sewage systems. Administrative tech helps as well, but is not strictly necessery.
The problem is that the medical tech is antibiotics and vaccines.
Oh, and we need drastic improvements to agriculture to feed the cities if their populations explode.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well the first thing that has to happen before this Econ Tax Demographic shift you are thinking of happens is that we have to integrate Trelli, which will not be possible since we cannot even do Greenshore or Tinriver. If this integration does not happen then Trelli will feed itself, (aside from the food tax we pull from it which may be a fun combo).
Outside of that it has not really been addressed.
And any of these help us... how?
Tinriver can send trade missions to the people around us; that is a perfectly reasonable use of its time.
If Khem wants to stay strangers, that is fine by me. The real problem is if they decide to be real neighbors, but hostile ones - but if it is too dificut to reach them as it is, that isn't too much of a worry, is it?
If we don't interact with people, why bother pushing our culture to them?
More neighbors means more trade, sure. It also means more of our dominances are up for challenge.
Billing neighbors wealth for strait access can be lucrative if that is a thing. I'm not sure it is; we might have been the only ones stupid enough to go for such a deal. (Did we get anything at all out of those 6 or so points of Wealth we spent in fees, other than just making our traders happy?)
EDIT: Forgot the Intrigue Stuff. Basically, why would we want to? If anything, we'd rather avoid this, since if we can reach them, they can reach us.
Importing Khemetri Grain... well. Not sure how that would work, honestly. Would it just be buying Econ from Khem? Because I doubt that we can find deals that are better than the 5 Econ/action we will soon be getting from Expand Economy.
Deploying our mercenaries can get us some extra wealth if they aren't tied up at home, sure. Though given the current trend, we will tend to need them ourselves...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All in all, it sounds like the story you are preaching here is "More neighbors! More interactions! More opportunities!"
Only, right now, we don't want more neighbors, or anything to do with them. We are overextended and have been overextended for a LONG time now. And in part it is because of stuff like taking the Strait - building WIDE instead of TALL.
Well, it is time to stop. Every interaction we have with a neighbor is a potential problem. If we are lucky, we can maintain peaceful, harmonious relations... for a time. If we aren't lucky, we end up on opposite sides of frequent conflicts, with our opponents launching wars, intrigue missions, or other attacks in our direction.
So if your argument boils down to simply being exposed to more, I would count that as a reason to AVOID Trell, not a reason to fight for it.
Last edited: