Same reason most people did I imagine. First sign of some gender equality in centuries, we're unlikely to get an option like this for a very long time. I was also thinking it means we'll likely have a woman King again at some point, which we haven't had in forever. I'd have voted for both, but didn't want the stability loss.
Makes sense, only big caveat is it does not really help with the Second Sons.

Here's a bit of my reasoning on how the Myranyn reforms stand on their own. Note this is not putting them against each other, I ain't got the time for that.
 
Same reason most people did I imagine. First sign of some gender equality in centuries, we're unlikely to get an option like this for a very long time. I was also thinking it means we'll likely have a woman King again at some point, which we haven't had in forever. I'd have voted for both, but didn't want the stability loss.

While gender equality is a goal worthy of aiming for, I think the incentive structure are more important, and I can't help that empowering daughters with martial educations will in the future give us "The Second Daughters" crisis.
 
The current leading vote have so much hilarious "harmonious" potential.

I mean, you act like Democracy and the Will of the People is a bad thing :V

In all seriousness though, I don't think it would be a bad thing. WoAN says a healthy society balances the power of its factions, and Urban Poor has been nearly powerless since its inception. We probably have a lot of wiggle room there.

I mean, if we want to get to the moon, that's gonna involve educating and training the masses eventually.
Adhoc vote count started by 8bitBob on Oct 6, 2017 at 6:39 PM, finished with 543 posts and 83 votes.
 
I mean, you act like Democracy and the Will of the People is a bad thing :V

In all seriousness though, I don't think it would be a bad thing. WoAN says a healthy society balances the power of its factions, and Urban Poor has been nearly powerless since its inception. We probably have a lot of wiggle room there.

I mean, if we want to get to the moon, that's gonna involve educating and training the masses eventually.
Far as I can tell our factions start causing concern at 3 and troublesome shit at 4. With the Urban Poor at 2 we should be fine if we don't cross them often, since they can be the most vindictive little shits of the lot when they feel wronged but are conversely really easy to please.
 
I can see where you are coming from, but mercenary companies and higher-end military positions do exist.

But converting the current yeoman warriors model into Urban Poor Army with Partisan as leaders will not make the Yeoman prospects any more attractive, because the conversion removes existing Yeoman positions and puts Yeoman to compete against Urban Poor with the same minor leadership position. Steps backward for Yeoman faction in every way.
Yeoman faction causes problems. They're not gonna, nor I think they should, walk away from it unscathed. Important thing here is to not destroy them completely, as I feel they are important to our balancing act. Going with reform, in my opinion, has the best chance to do it - Yeoman gonna become less central in our army, but they're not gonna vanish - second sons would still have half a year they can spend on training, which would put them above UP when joining army, and we would still have a more elite corps of first sons.
 
I mean, you act like Democracy and the Will of the People is a bad thing :V

In all seriousness though, I don't think it would be a bad thing. WoAN says a healthy society balances the power of its factions, and Urban Poor has been nearly powerless since its inception. We probably have a lot of wiggle room there.

I mean, if we want to get to the moon, that's gonna involve educating and training the masses eventually.

Which is neither here nor there, Democracy or Moon base. Can you imagine the current faction quests turning into faction avatars all voicing their own ideas while being even more spiteful to other faction?
 
Which is neither here nor there, Democracy or Moon base. Can you imagine the current faction quests turning into faction avatars all voicing their own ideas while being even more spiteful to other faction?
*has images of whack-a-dickhead*

This image is approved by my reptilian hindbrain.
 
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)

@Academia Nut Maybe change GA to GiA for gilded Age.
 
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Makes sense, only big caveat is it does not really help with the Second Sons.

Here's a bit of my reasoning on how the Myranyn reforms stand on their own. Note this is not putting them against each other, I ain't got the time for that.
Oh, yeah, I read that as I was going through the thread. Pretty much agree with you, I just like the sound of training the Patrician's daughters more than the urban poor.
While gender equality is a goal worthy of aiming for, I think the incentive structure are more important, and I can't help that empowering daughters with martial educations will in the future give us "The Second Daughters" crisis.
It very well could, or something similar. Just like arming the urban poor could give us crises if our stability or econ goes too low and also leaves us far more vulnerable to rule by the mob in the cities. Both options have good and bad points, I just prefer this option.

Besides I believe a lot of the women are going to end up in the more elite parts of the army, like the Spiritbonded and Blackbirds, since that will be what they're more suited for. I quite like the sound of our light cavalry being composed almost entirely of women. Imagine our enemies faces :D
 
But the thing to remember is: we're not a government. We're able to take the long view. If some of our population now dies earlier than they would otherwise have done, so that later on our society's structure can lead to better lives for all, that's a sacrifice I'm happy to make. In my analysis, that's what's effectively happening here - trading some probability of collapse, so some fraction of a casualty figure, for some probability of improvement, so some fraction of a quality-of-life increase. Collapse doesn't terminate the game, so these sorts of probabilistic averages seem like a reasonable approach to evaluating the merits of a gamble.
True, true.

But a collapse is not just a casualty figure. It is a direct quality-of-life decrease, as our civilization loses legacies, values, and possibly even infrastructure and knowledge. If our polity fractures, our successors will split everything in our character sheet among themselves, and while some things will go to many or even all of our successors, others are not getting split up. This means that any successor we play as gets to keep only a fraction of what we've accumulated so far.

Even if you take the long-term-view and can tolerate the moral cost of all the misery and death that such a thing would cost, a breakup is still a massive set-back from the view of trying to optimize quality-of-life for the long term.
 
Which is neither here nor there, Democracy or Moon base. Can you imagine the current faction quests turning into faction avatars all voicing their own ideas while being even more spiteful to other faction?
The point about the moon is that our goal has always been mass education. Education = empowerment. It was me saying that we were always going to increase the power of the urban poor eventually.

I don't see the current faction changing substantially from this. Like I said, WoAN is that we want to try to keep them balanced. I'm more worried about giving the Patricians exclusive control of the military command and increasing their faction power than I am about empowering our weakest a bit.
Adhoc vote count started by 8bitBob on Oct 6, 2017 at 6:52 PM, finished with 551 posts and 84 votes.
 
It very well could, or something similar. Just like arming the urban poor could give us crises if our stability or econ goes too low and also leaves us far more vulnerable to rule by the mob in the cities. Both options have good and bad points, I just prefer this option.

Besides I believe a lot of the women are going to end up in the more elite parts of the army, like the Spiritbonded and Blackbirds, since that will be what they're more suited for. I quite like the sound of our light cavalry being composed almost entirely of women. Imagine our enemies faces :D
Women are only going to be officer class, from what I understand. Anything that actually requires a lot of physical strength will still be mostly staffed by men, it's just that women will be able to be trained for leadership roles.

So don't expect full companies of women anytime soon(as in the next thousand or so years), even if we do the reform perfectly.
 
*reads update* *Trell collapsed. Merchants demanding we conquer them in 1 turn. Western Ymaryn. Ironworks finished. Us starved. Lost RoG. Increased True City cost. Finalized religion.*
What the fuck, what the fuck, what the fuck, what the fuck.
 
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)

@Academia Nut Maybe change GA to GiA for gilded Age.
I'm interested to hear why you want to do the Harmysyn reform. Care to share?

*reads update* *Trell collapsed. Merchants demanding we conquer them in 1 turn. Western Ymaryn. Ironworks finished. Us starved. Lost RoG. Increased True City cost. Finalized religion.*
What the fuck, what the fuck, what the fuck, what the fuck.
Kek kek.
 
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)
I'm @ UCLA's LeVRage so I don't have time to actually think about what I want rn. & I have a project (albeit a v easy one) due tonight. Thus, temp vote.
 
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[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)
I'm @ UCLA's LeVRage so I don't have time to actually think about what I want rn. & I have a project (albeit a v easy one) due tonight. Thus, temp vote.
I'll just point you to this post I made which shows why Myranyn also stands on it's own like Harmysyn does. Do note I am not comparing them, not worth my time.
Enjoy!
 
We kinda need that action for Enforce Justice, though. We need that to start digging out of our stability hole, and also to generate the Centralization that we need to take our PSN action to Expand Econ (which we need to not die of starvation next turn).

We're going to take a Stability hit from Second Sons. With Western Ymaryn having PiA, we have to be extremely careful with our Econ. If we use too much and they vamp us, we could enter starvation again.

Either way, we need to find some way to increase our Econ during mid-turn. We have 5 Econ currently and are looking at -6 'income' next turn. If we don't do anything, not only will we not have Econ to spend, we will starve and likely explode (since we must spend at least 2 Econ). Hitting -3 actual Econ would be a -3 stability hit: death with the -1 from Second Sons. If the Western Ymaryn vamp us from the Second Son's stability hit, we are epicly fucked.

At this point the Yeoman is the only contender within military with Patricians. By going about and setup Urban Poor army you are adding the Partisans as leader and paymaster with Priests giving faith cover, and possibility of getting their own army thanks to independent infrastructure.
With Yeoman completely removed from the military, the faction balance will be irreversibly tilled towards Partisans and Priests; due to them holding all the sharp objects.

Arming the Urban Poor won't eliminate yeoman in the military. Some of the yeoman will likely enlist as specialists, squad leaders, etc. However, we've already developed the concept of auxiliaries. The Urban Poor and Patricians form the core of the professional army, but the yeoman will still be called up for militia duty or to add extra numbers. What it changes is that it gives us a source of military power aside from the conquering deserters that we rely on now. The Urban Poor will be an additional force in our army, we're not forbidding the yeoman from serving the state.

Remember Faction Power: our currently most powerful faction is the Guilds, not the Patricians or the Traders, or the Priests. Right now, most of the factions are in rough balance: the Urban Poor are 2 weaker (likely to change if we do the the Not!Marian reforms) and the Priests are 1 weaker.

I'm not sure where this conspiracy of the Patricians and the Priests screwing over the yeoman is coming from. We want the yeoman weaker. Right now they're going off, deserting our army, and conquering people at random. This is not acceptable behaviour. Why should we care about our priests, poor and patricians when they're restraining a group of literal thieves and murders?
 
Does our diplomacy drip account for Western Ymaryn?
It does. We currently get diplo income for:
-King of the Hill
-1x Mature Trading Post
-2x Games Participants (Swamp-People-whatever-their-name-is, Western Ymaryn)

Far as I can tell our factions start causing concern at 3 and troublesome shit at 4.
Where did you get this idea?

Considering that the Western Ymaryn, our confirmed successor state, should retain access to many of the advancements we've made over the years, the damage to humanity's collective progress - while non-trivial - seems sufficiently low to justify taking a risk. Admittedly, since it's impossible to run hard numbers here, that is a subjective assessment - you're free not to share it, but I felt I should at least explain my views.
WY are NOT our "confirmed successor". They (and any successors they have) are merely stated to count as our successors; i.e. if we die, they are one of our OPTIONS for who to play as later. That doesn't detract from your point, but I wanted to bring it up.

More pertinently. If we take over the WY, we will almost certainly lose a bunch of our Legacies, and maybe even a number of Values - but lets set that aside for now, since it is ambiguous. What isn't ambiguous is the infrastructure losses. We will be starting over with our road progress, wall progress, forest progress, and so on. We will have lost the Ironworks, our Docks, our Palace, our Observatory, our Temples/Libraries/Salterns/GPs, our cities with everything in them, and most of our trade / industrial production. I think I don't exaggerate when I say that these losses would take centuries to recover from, and even that only if we aren't forced to focus our attention elsewhere. At the very least, we will be losing all the technological and cultural progress that would have been produced by all this infrastructure; and more realistically, we would also have lost whatever output might have been produced by our actions if we didn't have to spend our time rebuilding everything we had once had.

If you think that this innovation is worth risking literally centuries of progress, if not more, then go ahead. But I'll be voting against you.
 
Update to my vote (from here), removed Harmysyn approval vote now that 'Both' is reasonably far behind.

[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain

[X][Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X][Iron] Gain an additional Social Value slot

[X][PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[X][PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])

[X][GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)

Both event chains are sorely needed, but we absolutely can't afford to do them both at once. And I personally think that arming the poor is more important than gender equality.
 
Where did you get this idea?
I look at our priests and guilds and traders all causing shit, with the priests being the most benign of the lot, and I think "hmmmm... yeah there is probably a threshold which passing will cause even a well meaning faction to bump our elbows and these numbers seem like a good indicator".

Update to my vote (from here), removed Harmysyn approval vote now that 'Both' is reasonably far behind.

[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain

[X][Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X][Iron] Gain an additional Social Value slot

[X][PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[X][PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])

[X][GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)

Both event chains are sorely needed, but we absolutely can't afford to do them both at once. And I personally think that arming the poor is more important than gender equality.
Hey question, is it below 10 that the Traders and Guilds start muttering about a stab loss and less than three where they actually make us lose it?
 
I'm interested to hear why you want to do the Harmysyn reform. Care to share?

Mostly just Feminism ho, it's the first time we can actually get some females who aren't heroic or genius in leadership roles, if that also empowers the Patricians well I don't really care, they're pretty much the only faction that hasn't given us major downsides for failing their quests, and when you take away the whole 'elite' part they pretty much want what we as a thread want, only through an elite early classical lens.
 
Mostly just Feminism ho, it's the first time we can actually get some females who aren't heroic or genius in leadership roles, if that also empowers the Patricians well I don't really care, they're pretty much the only faction that hasn't given us major downsides for failing their quests, and when you take away the whole 'elite' part they pretty much want what we as a thread want, only through an elite early classical lens.

So we want to be like that guy that was using the laws to force a girl he was sweet on to have sex with him? Are we trying to be like the Patricians that keep the Half-Exiles under their care as actual, life-long slaves? How about the Patricians that ban learning how to read on pain of becoming a Half-Exile? Perhaps the Patricians that will kill people and then have their good cousin, the judge, find them not guilty of the crime? The Patricians who force the people underneath them to work backbreaking hours in order so the Patrician can claim increased productivity and get ahead? The Patricians that don't spare resources so people with mental or physical health problems can go to the hospices? Or the ones that don't spare resources to get the LGBTQ* to the temples where they would normally be trained to become priests?

I mean, Academia Nut's given us lots of examples of how the Patricians act. All of those are examples I remember and I have not been reading the thread long; just the last few updates.

The Patricians are Early Iron Age nobility who thrive on corruption and nepotism.
 
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@Redium
You do realize that at least half those examples are the higher Yeoman.
Our Patricians are concentrated in the cities, a small town chief isn't a Patrician.
 
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