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Can anyone explain how the ignore button works (or can point me somewhere to educate myself)? I tend to catch up on the thread late at night, and with Lady Bitch being a major topic as of late I don't want to get triggered while tired brain lacks impulse control and do something stupid. Reading defenses of her (no matter how justified*) really kills my enjoyment of an awesome quest, and beyond this topic I never have major issues with the other participants of this quest. I'd rather not have to only pop in for the updates until this topic has gotten buried again, but that's all I can really do when I don't know how the ignore button works.


*which is not at all in my (biased) opinion

As I understand, putting someone on ignore...

  • Makes all their posts invisible to you. Entirely. You don't even know they posted.
  • Makes all quotes of their posts equally invisible. They are edited out of the post with no sign there ever was a quote.
  • I've heard something about their being a 'show ignored posts' button or some such on the page if you have ignored people, but I'm not clear on the details.
  • Oh, and all that's sitewide.

Bassically, unless I have terribly misunderstood discussion of it that I have seen, it's a nuclear option to completely erase a given poster from your view. I'd recommend not using for anyone you'd only sometimes not want to see posts from.

Now, while I don't know if it's reasonable to ask others to do this, realistically, it sounds to me like what you really want is for people to spoiler with a description or otherwise signpost that this post is about the Sealing, since it's very specifically the arguments on the sealing you apparently don't want to see.
 
They charge by the vision. Also, Dandeer isn't very strong in the first place, let alone when she's under Masque.
Dandeer's still got a power level in her true form high enough that she could blow up the planet. We don't have a firm threshold for the minimum amount of power level required for this. It's kind of problematic, and I'm not going to ask for an exact number.

However, the worst Masque Affinity I've seen so far is the 10% affinity Kakara has for that saiyan masque we picked up on an impulse (presumably from a Gokun sorceror who was like "wait what... okay fine whatever, Scion, it's your goofy project.")

Is it the case that 10% of the minimum power level required to blow up a planet would reliably fail to register on the ki sense of someone like a hypothetical Jaron Somerlad after cursory training? Even over the course of prolonged interpersonal contact at point blank range?

Or is it the case that Doreen Somerlad actively masks her power level, even though the only two people she's really hiding it from are supposed to know nothing of ki? And given that we know that ki sense is an ability that cannot be used untrained because no one had it until the Turtle and Crane schools started teaching people?

I'd bet on Jaron noticing Doreen's power pretty fast if we teach him any ki sense.

For that matter, I wouldn't bet against Jaron noticing anything that he is physically capable of perceiving, even in theory. For that matter, he was doing a pretty good job of perceiving something that he was incapable of perceiving in theory, when we found ourselves scrying on the Misfits.

Research works by Kakara testing and discarding various hypotheses; at the end of the year, you get to know if all of those are utter dead ends or if you have something to pursue. This is, of course, far swifter than science usually is, but nobody in the thread has the patience to wait at science pace, so I'm handwaving it as Kakara being essentially a genius. Which we knew.
To be fair, a lot of things in science take the form of "Is this possible, let me do some back of the envelope calculations, ah... ahahaha NO." Or "let's run one more test to rule out the feasibility of this... ahahaha NO."

Research into ki-powered abilities is probably worse than real science in some ways, because there are many, many fewer things that can be definitively stated to be impossible.

...What would Legendary combat even look like? Automatically defeat anyone up to 10% more powerful then you if they dont possess at least one Elite+ combat skill?
Something like this.

For reference, Benedict (the character referenced) and Corwin (the protagonist, who is speaking) are members of a family of multiverse-bestriding superhumans, the royalty of a city called Amber. Their powers aren't on the scale of Dragonball, with casual blowing up of mountaintops and whatnot. But they are on the scale where a member of the family could probably step in for the mythical heroes of 'real' Earth without any great difficulty, and perform as required to fulfill their legends.

Aside from personal power, the key to their abilities is their ability to travel through an infinite sea of alternate dimensions, which they call 'shadows.' They can obtain basically anything they want, including magical treasures and armies of fanatically loyal followers, simply by "walking" to a parallel universe in which these things are waiting for them.

[I explain this because it's necessary to understand part of the text below]

Here is Corwin, describing his older brother Benedict to a recently recruited follower of his.

Roger Zelazny said:
"Excuse me, please. You do not understand. You do not really understand who it was we talked with in the tent that night. He may have seemed an ordinary man to you--a handicapped one, at that. But this is not so. I fear Benedict. He is unlike any other being in Shadow or reality. He is the Master of Arms for Amber. Can you conceive of a millennium? A thousand years? Several of them? Can you understand a man who, for almost every day of a lifetime like that, has spent some time dwelling with weapons, tactics, strategies? Because you see him in a tiny kingdom, commanding a small militia, with a well-pruned orchard in his back yard, do not be deceived. All that there is of military science thunders in his head. He has often journeyed from shadow to shadow, witnessing variation after variation on the same battle, with but slightly altered circumstances, in order to test his theories of warfare. He has commanded armies so vast that you could watch them march by day after day and see no end to the columns. Although he is inconvenienced by the loss of his arm, I would not wish to fight with him either weapons or barehanded. It is fortunate that he has no designs upon the throne, or he would be occupying it right now. If he were, I believe that I would give up at this moment and pay him homage. I fear Benedict. "

And more from the viewpoint of Merlin*, who along with his acquaintance Bill, are currently in the city of Amber.

*(Corwin's son, and not the legendary magician of English legend, though probably capable of keeping up with him when it comes to magic)

"When I talked about defending Amber, and Benedict said "It won't come to that," I got the impression he was talking about something close at hand. Something he feels he can control."

"I see what you mean." [Bill] agreed. "But then he told you not to bother fortifying."

"If Benedict feels we don't need to fortify, then we don't need to fortify."

"Waltz and drink champagne while the cannons boom?"

"If Benedict says it's okay."

"You really trust that guy. What would you do without him?"

"Be more nervous," I said.

[Bill] shook his head. "Excuse me," he said. "I'm not used to being acquainted with legends."
That is Legendary Combat.
 
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I explicitly didn't support the idea of telling Dander that and was simply refuting the point that we couldn't make her believe us, so why are you telling me that?:wtf:
To preemptively shut down people quoting your point as an argument that it's a good idea after all because one specific problem was refuted. Couldn't really do that without the quote :V
 
To preemptively shut down people quoting your point as an argument that it's a good idea after all because one specific problem was refuted. Couldn't really do that without the quote :V
This. The idea by itself is absurd. The reward for its success is a very likely possibility of the entirety of the conspiracy to fail. Dandeer cannot know that Jaffur is inside Jaron, lest she make a catastrofic decision in her panic, and kill Jaffur for good.
The best way to ensure this is by making sure she has no idea that Jaron is a sorcerer.
Also, if we ran that idea by Raditz and the others, there's no way they'd agree too it.
Hell, Im willing to change my vote to try diplomacy with Dandeer to make sure that idea doesn't happen.
 
To preemptively shut down people quoting your point as an argument that it's a good idea after all because one specific problem was refuted. Couldn't really do that without the quote :V
This is a fair sentiment, and I absolutely agree that this option is a bad idea, but next time can you express that without being so dismissive about my point.o_O

Like, you literally quoted me to make an example of me, despite me being on your side except for one point.:confused:
 
Dandeer's still got a power level in her true form high enough that she could blow up the planet. We don't have a firm threshold for the minimum amount of power level required for this. It's kind of problematic, and I'm not going to ask for an exact number.

However, the worst Masque Affinity I've seen so far is the 10% affinity Kakara has for that saiyan masque we picked up on an impulse (presumably from a Gokun sorceror who was like "wait what... okay fine whatever, Scion, it's your goofy project.")

Is it the case that 10% of the minimum power level required to blow up a planet would reliably fail to register on the ki sense of someone like a hypothetical Jaron Somerlad after cursory training? Even over the course of prolonged interpersonal contact at point blank range?

Or is it the case that Doreen Somerlad actively masks her power level, even though the only two people she's really hiding it from are supposed to know nothing of ki? And given that we know that ki sense is an ability that cannot be used untrained because no one had it until the Turtle and Crane schools started teaching people?

I'd bet on Jaron noticing Doreen's power pretty fast if we teach him any ki sense.

For that matter, I wouldn't bet against Jaron noticing anything that he is physically capable of perceiving, even in theory. For that matter, he was doing a pretty good job of perceiving something that he was incapable of perceiving in theory, when we found ourselves scrying on the Misfits.
To be more specific: if you can suppress to the level of any other human, so can she. :p

Also, what do you mean, "incapable?" Did you miss the bit where Seers and Sorcerers can see shades?
 
This is a fair sentiment, and I absolutely agree that this option is a bad idea, but next time can you express that without being so dismissive about my point.o_O

Like, you literally quoted me to make an example of me, despite me being on your side except for one point.:confused:
Sure, it was only meant to be dismissive of the larger argument, not you in particular - I thought that would be obvious given your opposition to said argument. Sorry for being unclear.
 
I wonder how Jaron's dad (who is also Sealed) has reacted to the kids reveal. Dandeer may call bs on 'instinctive' ki use if he doesn't show any indication of knowing how to use it.

Boy, is he in for a BAD DAY if we ever unseal him...
 
To be more specific: if you can suppress to the level of any other human, so can she. :p
No doubt. But recall, you originally said (to paraphrase) "Dandeer isn't that powerful, especially not in Masque." This implied that it was Dandeer's lack of extraordinary ki power that made her hard to detect, rather than her ability to dial her power level down into the single digits where it would be indistinguishable from the average human. That surprised me, and motivated the question that I asked.

I suppose my other question about Dandeer being, when Masqued does she habitually dial back her power level to human average all the time even when there's no one to hide from? Which I suppose is a moot question. Because if 'Doreen Somerlad' didn't spend all her time at a power level of five or so before she found out that Jaron can use ki well enough to make the Ginyu Force cry, She certainly spends her time at that power level now.

Now
she has someone in her household to keep the secret of her own ki levels from.

I wonder if Valentine Somerlad's power level ever spikes beyond the ordinary, come to think of it?

Also, what do you mean, "incapable?" Did you miss the bit where Seers and Sorcerers can see shades?
Note that I said incapable in theory. In theory, Jaron was supposed to be a powerless bog-standard normal.

The difference between theory and practice is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. ;)

I wonder how Jaron's dad (who is also Sealed) has reacted to the kids reveal. Dandeer may call bs on 'instinctive' ki use if he doesn't show any indication of knowing how to use it.

Boy, is he in for a BAD DAY if we ever unseal him...
What, Lord Vegeta?

Uh... so is everyone else on the planet. I'm pretty sure he'd hit levels of ancestor-channeling that have not been seen or heard felt in a long time.

If we EVER unseal him, we're doing it after literally every other super-saiyan on the planet has agreed to restrain him as long as necessary to get him to calm the HELL down.
 
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Non-Canon Omake: Smiles
Smiles

Jaron had smiled.

She was tense as she approached Dandeer's door, but she held that thought firmly in mind. Jaron had smiled, and she saw the distant echoes of Jaffur's joy at first unlocking his transformation in that expression.

"Set aside thoughts of the conspiracy for now. Right now, I'm doing this for Jaron." She thought, steeling herself as she knocked. She double-checked her own power levels nervously, tamping them down. She would have no need for them now, and it would only serve to make Lady Vegeta nervous.

Naturally, she hadn't called ahead. In negotiations, her father had taught her well -- best to keep the opposition off guard.

Dandeer looked like she had swallowed a frog upon opening the door. "To what do I owe the distinct... pleasure of your company, Karen?"

Two can play at that game. "Oh, I was just in the neighborhood, Ms. Somerlad -- Jaron's on his way home from school right now, and I thought I'd drop in." Put her on a time limit.

She looked like she wanted to do anything but let Kakara in, but after an uncomfortable moment, stepped aside. On closing the door, she made incomprehensible motions toward it, speaking nonsensical arcane syllables, before turning abruptly to face Kakara. "There. Now no one will overhear -- now what are you here for? Be quick about it."

The moment of truth. "I recently began teaching my group of human friends about Ki, as you may be aware." Dandeer started to speak, but Kakara was quick to continue. She knew that if she let Lady Vegeta get a word in, she would likely set her off, and Kakara had to stay calm for this. "Jaron joined us, and said, at the time, that he had your permission. I thought nothing of it at the time, but... that is not actually the case, is it?"

Her lips tightened. "He did not, and you needn't expect him with your group of little humans again." Steady, Kakara, steady.

"I beg your forgiveness in my lack of thoroughness in checking, Lady Vegeta," Remind her of her role and set her expectations for how the conversation will go. "It was not my place to train him in anything without your permission."

She looked to be about to speak, so Kakara continued once more. Overturn the expectations, and drive your argument home. "However... Jaron is stoic. He's not the most expressive, and doesn't have many friends at school, and I can count on my hands the times I've seen him smile. But today, when I taught him to fly, he was grinning so hard it hurt. He looked so happy. I understand if you need to punish him for not coming to you, but he was filled with such joy, and..." Here Kakara's voice got quiet. She let her facade of Kakara Goku, Scion of the Goku Clan fall to reveal the scared, lonely child underneath, just for a moment. "He's my friend, too."

Dandeer tried for looking dispassionate, but flickers of confusion flashed across her face. The door knob turning to meet he lock, followed by a knock, interrupted her thoughts.

Kakara wiped at her face a little and stepped back. "That'll be Jaron -- just, please: Think about it, won't you?" She turned around and stepped for the door. She gave Jaron a half-smile and a soft, "I tried," nodding at him on the way out.
 
If we EVER unseal him, we're doing it after literally every other super-saiyan on the planet has agreed to restrain him as long as necessary to get him to calm the HELL down.

Obviously.

I'm just concerned about what is going to happen when Dandeer dies (mysteriously, I'm sure). Will the Seals break? It certainly doesn't seem like they will, but it is possible.

But imagine if it did work the way she said it was supposed to (when not interfered with by a SSJ Sorcerer). Lord Vegeta will wake up, thinking it's the next morning. His son will be a teenager, that foolish girl will be being worshiped as a demigoddess, and humans will be flying around with power levels in the low 100s.

It would be glorious to see.
 
"I beg your forgiveness in my lack of thoroughness in checking, Lady Vegeta," Remind her of her role and set her expectations for how the conversation will go. "It was not my place to train him in anything without your permission."
Not quite right he is strong enough to destroy the plant by accident. Stopping that from happening is part of our job description. However, I can see why we would be more conciliatory than honest.
 
Diplomacy is lying while you smile.

No diplomat could be successful if they went around telling the whole truth all the time!
This is how I modelled the speech there, yes. Kakara approached this here with the following aims: Get Dandeer to think of her less antagonistically, get permission to train Jaron, and do not allow Dandeer the opportunity to question her regarding Jaron. Her timing it such that she arrived at her hourse before Jaron was timed specifically so that she wouldn't have the ability to question her on the latter.
 
Suffice to say that I think Berra DOES have the authority to rule that Jaron needs training in "how to not accidentally blow up the planet;" his known power level is a dozen times stronger than that of Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga, after all. That's not something Dandeer should be overruling, among other things because she's not actually a Lord, and because through her own actions the only person who could overrule a Lord (her husband) cannot possibly understand the situation.

But that's very different from combat training.
 
and because through her own actions the only person who could overrule a Lord (her husband) cannot possibly understand the situation.
Actually, with Ki a public knowledge thing, we could actually go up to Valentine Somerlad and ask "Hypothetically, if your son had the power to blow up the planet, would you want him trained well enough to not accidentally the planet", to which he'd probably respond 'yes'.

... Fuck, we should just ask Valentine. Not Dandeer- she rules by his authority anyways now. Oh man, I wish I had thought of this sooner...
 
Right, okay then. How to frame this. Hmmm.

[X] Actually, Lord Vegeta has the authority to say whether his son can fight or not, even sealed. And with the secret of Ki out, we can simply talk directly to him. Ask Valentine Somerlad for permission to train his son to fight.
 
I want to hear what a few other people think before switching to this, but in the context of Vegetan law and protocol, it sounds entirely correct.
 
I want to hear what a few other people think before switching to this, but in the context of Vegetan law and protocol, it sounds entirely correct.
I'm considering tagging voters given, but I don't think I have the time to talk it out right now. Maybe tomorrow if vote is still open, or maybe someone else will do it.

But this... I really do wish I'd thought of it sooner. I strongly suspect he'll say yes, we aren't simply flouting Dandeer's authority, instead sidestepping it by going to someone who out authority's her, and has his own stake in the issue, and because she has been ruling in his name, she can't exactly say he has no right to decide...
 
I mean, I still wanna go with talking to Dandeer. Regardless of how elegant a solution it is to this problem, it doesn't solve the other problems: Namely, giving Dandeer a path of retreat that doesn't involve constant escalation.

I doubt anyone but me would vote for using an action to talk to her, otherwise, so this is my only real recourse for getting Kakara to try doing something with her.
 
[X] Actually, Lord Vegeta has the authority to say whether his son can fight or not, even sealed. And with the secret of Ki out, we can simply talk directly to him. Ask Valentine Somerlad for permission to train his son in how to fight.

@Terrabrand change the last sentence a bit. We want Jaron trained so that he is safeish if he decides to fight, we don't actually want him to fight the aliens. The pitch should reflect that since any responsible parent would say no to training their children to fight aliens.

Edit: Oddball strikes again. I will list the relevant traits when I get to a computer.
 
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