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I wonder how Goku and Vegeta reacted when we found GO, given that GT never happened and they never bothered with the Oozaru after finding SSJ?

...I wonder how much property damage there was in heaven when they tried it out? I don't think Goku ever actually mastered Oozaru rage, and if he knew he could transform while raging...
 
Speaking of Oozaru i'll note that there is no social penalty listed to it, i feel this is important.

Why would there be a social penalty?

I'm just pointing out that turning into a giant ape kaiju is not mutually exclusive with social fu.

New policy: All negotiations shall now be conducted in Kaiju form.

Add the bonus to negotiations via Intimidation and this is objectively a great idea.
I don't think PoptartProdigy will be okay with it though...:(
Kinda depends on what we wanna negotiate tho
 
Galactic Donut

Especially the Galactic Donut!
That's actually not a bad idea if we could do it; restraining techniques would be really handy for someone like Kakara who prefers not to fight and abhors killing.

Lost and lost. In fact, any fusion techniques in general may be considered to be lost.
That is to say, any technique that was historically only practiced by warriors who had performed a fusion, and was never seen being used by an un-fused person?

Adding. There is a healthy research community. A fair few techniques (the Shin Kikoho, for instance) are the result of their labors.
I was at first surprised that Tien never taught the Kikoho to anyone in his long life, but then realized that to most of the Z fighters' descendants, the technique probably seemed kind of redundant when options like Kamehameha were available.

I imagine the OG turtle style would be more popular if [Thunder Shock Surprise] wasn't [lost].
Doubtful. The fundamental problem with Turtle Style isn't a lack of good techniques, it has Kamehameha. The fundamental problem is that it is totally, totally focused on melee combat with an occasional side-order of ki-fueled finishing attacks, while ignoring the question of how to actually force the enemy into melee range in the first place. Does it have a ranged option? Yes- "and a-kame and a-hame and a send-em-home-to-mommy!" But it has nothing to say about how to fight while flying, how to fight a flying opponent, how to cope with enemies that can outmaneuver you and pelt you with ray attacks, or any of the many other elements of Dragonball combat that didn't really emerge until the days when Roshi was fading into the background.

Furthermore, these limitations of Turtle Style are things the Exiles as a whole already know how to fix. For battlefield purposes, Goku Style is Turtle Style plus flight and teleportation, which makes it a much more viable combat style. Because while "punch them in the schnozz" isn't a valid counter to someone who can hover a mile in the air and hammer you with energy blasts, "fly up to them and punch them in the schnozz" IS a valid counter.

...

Honestly, I picture Turtle Style as being to Exile martial arts as real life martial arts and close combat training are to modern warfare. Very rarely useful in battle, because under almost all circumstances the enemy is too far away or too heavily armed in firepower to use it on them. Real soldiers don't karate-chop opponents very often, nor do they fight with swords or bayonets. And yet, the martial arts are fairly popular among soldiers, because they are sometimes useful in situations short of full-scale warfare, and the physical and mental disciplines you learn in them are still valuable.

Exiles don't learn Turtle Style to kick ass with it, and having a special ki-based finishing technique wouldn't change that. It's a deliberate anachronism, the result of a number of Exiles sitting down in the Hall one day and saying "you know what? Fuckit, let's just punch each other all day and practice nothing else until we become the greatest punchers Garenhuld has ever known!"

...

Though if there were one style Turtle Style was actually good at countering, it'd be Goku Style. Because a Goku stylist will almost always end up closing to hand to hand, and is more likely to end up negating their own speed and mobility advantage over a Turtle stylist than just about any other style.

Come to think of it, this may have a lot to do with why Turtle Style exists- because in every generation, the young whippersnappers who have learned only Goku Style keep flying into range of old-and-guileful martial artists who have trained both Goku Style and Turtle Style. And they keep losing the ensuing boxing matches, and quietly marveling at how the 'useless' Turtle Style was able to challenge them so badly.

By contrast, Vegeta stylists don't have this problem because Vegeta Style is basically a hard counter to Turtle Style except in a beam duel.
 
Current prospective Research Projects and their expected outcomes:
  1. Perfect Multiform - will give 4 bodies at full power level, a 300% increase in personal fighting ability that will scale with any other improvements.
  2. Spirit Bomb - we have an entire population of strong ki users, and this is the ultimate "punch-above-your-weight" technique. Hopefully an Enemy-killer! EDIT: We got it, and it was so much better than we could have ever hoped for.
A bit more hypothetical:
  1. USSJ instantaneous activation on hit - Mechanically, this will probably work along the lines of "double your effective Power Level ONLY for the purposes of dealing damage", since it won't help with actually hitting the foe.
  2. Merge the base bodies of Oozaru and Saiyan/Human - the idea being that SSJ4 was really just SSJ3 with this "base" body. Mechanically, would hopefully work something along the lines of adding the two base bodies' PLs together and use that as a base form.
  3. Ki Stealth - if we can hide our Power Level from detection without actually powering down, this might make breaking into higher transformations safe with regards hiding from the Enemy. Might.
  4. Travel to the Otherworld, or the other side of the galaxy - this might also make further transformations safe, in that Garenhuld wouldn't be threatened.
Any others people have discussed or thought of that I've missed?
 
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Travel to the Otherworld, or the other side of the galaxy - this might also make further transformations safe, in that Garenhuld wouldn't be threatened.
We could send a shade to the other side of the Galaxy and find a ki signature. Then we should be able to find it later for instance transmission.
 
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You know... I would actually hate Dandeer more if she messed with Jaffur's identity that way...
Justifiably so, but I think the point is more like "if the Vegetan Scion had been a girl, and the Sealed form of that Scion were therefore also a girl, then we'd be more willing to train that girl than to train Jaron."

Because people expecting Dandeer to be reasonable of all things isn't going to work.
I don't expect Dandeer to be reasonable. But I'd like to give her the chance.

She's not the kind of enemy who needs to be killed to stop her from hurting people over and over forever, like Frieza or Cell. She's the kind of enemy who will eventually, unless something goes badly wrong, be forced to stand down. Continuing to give her chances to stand down or compromise, and teaching Kakara to deal with people she dislikes rather than avoiding them, are both valuable goals for the long run.

I mean heck, how do we expect Dandeer to ever do anything BUT spitefully screw us over at the last gasp, if we never give her a chance to compromise on an issue where she might plausibly feel a need to do so?

Dandeer would be reasonable if we could stop treating her Unreasonable.

Remember, at the begining of the Quest she was one of our biggest allies, through our father.
This. Very much this.

Dandeer isn't some horrible walking slab of atrocities and malice. Not a kind of unpersuadable juggernaut who cannot be talked to or reasoned with by anyone, at any time. There is very, very little evidence that she was ever going to be this kind of villain.

She's got terrible attitudes about children, and that's a big deal because our protagonist is a child, but that's not the same as saying she's so obstinate as to be effectively insane.

Yeah and then she turned into a crazy bitch who's done nothing but cause problems for the entire saiyan race. She's being treated Unreasonable because she IS Unreasonable. Unreasonable People don't fucking Seal away the original personality of their child, replace it with 'false' personality of their own design, and intend to NEVER restore their son to his original state.

So TLDR Fuck The Crazy Bitch.
The Seal was supposed to preserve the personality without the memories. And if you say "that's impossible," well, it's pretty explicit by this point that in Dragonball AE it IS possible, because two master sorcerors both think it can be done.

The part where it replaced Jaffur's personality instead of locking away his traumatic memories and violent impulses while preserving the functional rest of him? Yeah, that was the result of Jaffur struggling against the Seal because he (rightly) did not want to be forcibly 'medicated' by having those aspects of his personality "commented out."

Dandeer was wrong to do the Sealing, unless there is a lot of very specific stuff going on that we don't know about. But the outcome that actually happened is not the Seal "working as intended." And everyone involved in the process who has expert-level knowledge of how this kind of thing works seems to think it's actually possible to 'cure' someone of violent impulses without changing their personality, by selectively locking away the impulses and the bad memories that drive them.

You are deluding yourself and wilfully ignoring information. We have been shown through an update and explicitly by PoptartProdigy himself that Dandeer will not listen to us - or even considering listening to us - because she is an adult and we are not. Your idea that she'd listen to us by treating her as reasonable is pure fantasy and represents an unjustifiable detachment from reality.
The older Kakara gets, the weaker the effect of that is.

Think about the mechanics- how would this manifest itself? I'm betting it manifests as a huge Communications penalty for a child to get Dandeer to take them seriously. But the penalty isn't just going to magically disappear at some age threshold, it'd scale with age. It's not going to manifest as "we auto-fail all Communications checks with Dandeer, forever."

The last time Kakara tried to have a civil conversation with Dandeer she was, what, nine? When about the only thing Dandeer ever remembered Kakara doing that was of any consequence was helping Jaffur avoid the Sealing. There are a lot of people out there who don't take a nine-year-old's opinions seriously. It doesn't mean they'd be equally quick to ignore a twelve-year-old, especially one who's personally saved their life from their furious father-in-law, and who's been constantly flittering all over the saiyan world doing alarmingly grown-up things.

So aside from objections about tone... I don't think you're correct about the facts here.
 
She's not the kind of enemy who needs to be killed to stop her from hurting people over and over forever, like Frieza or Cell.
She is however highly irrational and has a lot of complexes about saiyans, she should really be in therapy rather than leading.
The Seal was supposed to preserve the personality without the memories. And if you say "that's impossible," well, it's pretty explicit by this point that in Dragonball AE it IS possible, because two master sorcerors both think it can be done.

The part where it replaced Jaffur's personality instead of locking away his traumatic memories and violent impulses while preserving the functional rest of him? Yeah, that was the result of Jaffur struggling against the Seal because he (rightly) did not want to be forcibly 'medicated' by having those aspects of his personality "commented out."
Okay this bit is bullshit.

No, Jaffur breaks free simply to scream.
You are Prince Jaffur Vegeta, the Scion of Vegeta.
Lady Vegeta starts crying, but continues her spell. "Paparapapa."
You are Prince Jaffur Vegeta.
Jaffur curls up on himself, wailing.
You are Jaffur Vegeta.
"It'll be over soon, Jaffur, I promise! Paparapapa!"
You are Jaffur.
"Please!" shouts Jaffur, writhing.
Jaffur.
In the distance, your Dad snags Betarel out of the air and tucks the boy under his arm.
Ja...Jaff...Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
"Let him go!" screams Betarel.
You are Jaron Somerlad.
Jaffur drops out of his transformation.
You are eight years old, and have a Mom, a Dad, and a little sister.
"Paparapapa!"
You sometimes resent your Dad, because he works so much and is gone so often, leaving you and your little sister alone.
Jaffur flickers between his base form and his Super Saiyan state, struggling to maintain control.
But your Mom is always there for you.
His eyes lock on you and he screams, "HELP ME!"
And you love her.
Lady Vegeta's hands twist through another array of seals. "Papara..."
You love her with all your heart.
Jaffur screams to the heavens, flashing back into his transformed state...
And nothing else is as important as that.
"PAPA!"
You love her. You love her with all your heart. You love her. You love her with all your heart. You love her. You love her with...
...and then he crashes down through his base state and into his Masque before slumping back on the sand, eyes fluttering shut.
Look at the focus of her spellcasting, she didn't try to preserve him as much as possible she tried to make him love her as much as possible.
 
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She is however highly irrational and has a lot of complexes about saiyans, she should really be in therapy rather than leading.
Yes, but we have to deal with her anyway. She's got psychiatric problems? Well, that's why she's a boss-level Communications challenge, not a mook-level challenge. We've already whittled away at her certainty on two separate occasions, maybe we can whittle some more.

Okay this bit is bullshit.

Look at the focus of her spellcasting, she didn't try to preserve him as much as possible she tried to make him love her as much as possible.
You misunderstand me.

...Honestly, I'm not sure it's possible to have a productive conversation about this because people come to the table with very different assumptions about memory, personality, 'souls,' and other elements of what makes up a person's mind in the setting of Dragonball AE.

What I'm trying to get across is that everyone expected to get the result "Jaffur winds up thinking, feeling, and acting the way he would, if he'd had a normal upbringing, with no abusive father, among people with no powers."

It looks like Dandeer did that, in the process of stripping away Jaffur's memories of being a prince, a Vegetan, and a saiyan. And, yeah, it's pretty obvious that she either poured in a lot of compulsion to love 'Doreen Somerlad,' or strongly reinforced love that Jaffur already had for Dandeer.*

One can argue that none of that changes Jaffur's personality, as such, in and of itself. A huge extra dose of "I love my mommy!" doesn't turn a person into some kind of entirely different person. It may change their priorities or their willingness to disobey their mother, but what you do isn't quite the same as who you are.

At least, it's not inherent to the nature of philosophy and identity that altering a person's priorities, reinforcing some and diminishing others, turns them into a totally different person.

...

This isn't so much bullshitting, or me being ignorant of what happened, as it is a problem of communicating clearly about concepts like identity, memory, and personality.
_______________________

*Remember that in Jaffur's descriptive blurb on the first page, it says "your mother is your only solace, she and your little sister." I'm pretty sure Jaffur didn't hate his mother, at least not prior to the events of the Sealing. Their relationship may or may not have been particularly healthy, relationships in abusive families often aren't even when the abuser is not directly involved. But I suspect that there actually was love there for Dandeer to (wrongfully, very much wrongfully) enhance into a form of compulsion.



They don't behave better if you ignore their mistakes either, especially if their delusions tell them they are doing nothing wrong. The other option does not treat her like shit but it also does nothing to help her or give arguments to convince her.
I think it's safe to assume that if we vote for Kakara to TRY to persuade Dandeer to let Jaron train, and/or to train in combat techniques, Kakara will marshal the most convincing arguments she can devise, including "Jaron's safety."

[Considers portraying Kakara doing exactly that]

I am sort of surprised that a Oozaru style has not been developed.
Probably because most people have too much trouble controlling their oozaru forms to really develop a disciplined combat "style" with it. Also because you cannot ever, EVER get away with using oozaru form outside the Hall and utterly desolate areas. Because if "giant ragemonkeys with ki powers" ever, EVER got out among the stars, by any means direct or indirect, the Enemy would know the moment he heard of it that there were living saiyans on Garenhuld.

It just seems unlikely that we will ever be as good at healing as Sensi beans already are. Also the lack of possible teachers.

Of course the fact that it was never a listed option for the yearly actions might have something to do with it.
It's under the category of "Study ki talents" or something. Explicitly listed in the blurb as an example of a skill we might learn.

Current prospective Research Projects and their expected outcomes:

Spirit Bomb - we have an entire population of strong ki users, and this is the ultimate "punch-above-your-weight" technique. Hopefully an Enemy-killer!

A bit more hypothetical:
Downside: long period spent standing there in a conspicuously defenseless posture, humming "Imma charging my attack." Need a meatshield to keep the enemy (or Enemy) busy while we charge and fire. Perfect Multiform may help with this. Having Jaffur to help out would ALSO help with this.

Travel to the Otherworld, or the other side of the galaxy - this might also make further transformations safe, in that Garenhuld wouldn't be threatened.
I like this.

BOOO! BOOO!

I wanted history to be recorded as we made it. :(
Then write it. :p

I'm just pointing out that turning into a giant ape kaiju is not mutually exclusive with social fu.
Giant Ape Kakara will MAKE you sit down to her tea parties.

The hard part is finding suitable crockery.
 
It's under the category of "Study ki talents" or something. Explicitly listed in the blurb as an example of a skill we might learn.
There are something like a million ki talents we could learn. If we want to make any large amount of progress on them we should focus on raising our overall level to the point we can use talents without taking an action.
 
I'm not sure there is any level of Ki Control or Ki Manipulation that lets us freely use all possible talents.

Think about it, have you ever encountered any being in Dragonball, besides perhaps the most elevated of gods, who can do everything? Everyone has their own signature techniques, many powers are unique or nearly so.

I strongly suspect that most ki techniques are "cannot be used untrained;" you have to invest at least one action into acquiring SOME skill with them before you can use them at all.

And bluntly, if a given technique isn't worth even a single action point, we don't deserve to be effective at it.
 
She is however highly irrational and has a lot of complexes about saiyans, she should really be in therapy rather than leading.

Okay this bit is bullshit.


Look at the focus of her spellcasting, she didn't try to preserve him as much as possible she tried to make him love her as much as possible.
One can argue that none of that changes Jaffur's personality, as such, in and of itself. A huge extra dose of "I love my mommy!" doesn't turn a person into some kind of entirely different person. It may change their priorities or their willingness to disobey their mother, but what you do isn't quite the same as who you are.
*Remember that in Jaffur's descriptive blurb on the first page, it says "your mother is your only solace, she and your little sister." I'm pretty sure Jaffur didn't hate his mother, at least not prior to the events of the Sealing. Their relationship may or may not have been particularly healthy, relationships in abusive families often aren't even when the abuser is not directly involved. But I suspect that there actually was love there for Dandeer to (wrongfully, very much wrongfully) enhance into a form of compulsion.
Honestly, I don't think that is a compulsion. How much of a life outside of his family and being the Scion of Clan Vegeta did he have? And how much did he love his mother before everything went down?

It's entirely possible that after the Sealing, with all bad memories/feelings caused by the Saiyan stuff gone, that was literally the largest/most important part/all that was left.
 
Makes sense. What exactly does "crippling" mean in mechanical terms though? Oozaru's 50% penalty seems pretty big, but without peeling back the curtain further than you might be comfortable with it's hard to compare. Though one boosting endurance and the other crippling it is obviously a major factor too.
It means, "crippling," in that I don't even bother to stat it. Against an opponent whom you don't already overpower insultingly far, the speed disadvantage will mean that you can do exactly nothing to them without their consent (or extreme distraction) before your energy runs out.
Have you gotten back to your computer?
So I have! You lesser bonus is for your next Intrigue check to get something past Berra. I don't anticipate it lasting long. :lol
Add the bonus to negotiations via Intimidation and this is objectively a great idea.
I don't think PoptartProdigy will be okay with it though...:(
By all means, go for it. *points to custom title*
That is to say, any technique that was historically only practiced by warriors who had performed a fusion, and was never seen being used by an un-fused person?

I was at first surprised that Tien never taught the Kikoho to anyone in his long life, but then realized that to most of the Z fighters' descendants, the technique probably seemed kind of redundant when options like Kamehameha were available.
Yes.

He taught both the Shin Kikoho and the regular one, actually -- the regular one never having been lost in the first place. The Shin Kikoho was lost thanks to the line of users shrinking to one person during the dark age, with that one person never finding a student worthy of/interested in learning it.
We could send a shade to the other side of the Galaxy find and ki signature. Then we should be able to find it later for instance transmission.
*custom title*
There are something like a million ki talents we could learn. If we want to make any large amount of progress on them we should focus on raising our overall level to the point we can use talents without taking an action.
That isn't how it works. It makes it much easier to pick up new talents, but they don't just appear ex nihilo.
 
I'm not sure there is any level of Ki Control or Ki Manipulation that lets us freely use all possible talents.

Think about it, have you ever encountered any being in Dragonball, besides perhaps the most elevated of gods, who can do everything? Everyone has their own signature techniques, many powers are unique or nearly so.

I strongly suspect that most ki techniques are "cannot be used untrained;" you have to invest at least one action into acquiring SOME skill with them before you can use them at all.

And bluntly, if a given technique isn't worth even a single action point, we don't deserve to be effective at it.
I don't he's saying we'll become omnipotent. What he seems to mean is that at a certain point in talent we can pick up related skills to a useable extent in a short enough time that it doesn't take that an yearly action. We actually did this with Telepathy in-story, and I think a Ki Barrier technique was mentioned, which Goku, Vegeta and Gohan learned/created in a matter of days to counter a specific enemy.
 
I don't he's saying we'll become omnipotent. What he seems to mean is that at a certain point in talent we can pick up related skills to a useable extent in a short enough time that it doesn't take that an yearly action. We actually did this with Telepathy in-story, and I think a Ki Barrier technique was mentioned, which Goku, Vegeta and Gohan learned/created in a matter of days to counter a specific enemy.
You spent an action for Telepathy. It was Telekinesis that sprung up freely -- that because it's really more of a Ki Control sub-skill than anything.
 
Can anyone explain how the ignore button works (or can point me somewhere to educate myself)? I tend to catch up on the thread late at night, and with Lady Bitch being a major topic as of late I don't want to get triggered while tired brain lacks impulse control and do something stupid. Reading defenses of her (no matter how justified*) really kills my enjoyment of an awesome quest, and beyond this topic I never have major issues with the other participants of this quest. I'd rather not have to only pop in for the updates until this topic has gotten buried again, but that's all I can really do when I don't know how the ignore button works.


*which is not at all in my (biased) opinion
 
Question: do the Lords tax the Houses? Because previously Berra has paid for expensive stuff, and I'm not sure a teacher and mechanic could afford to feed 5 Ssiyans.
 
Question: do the Lords tax the Houses? Because previously Berra has paid for expensive stuff, and I'm not sure a teacher and mechanic could afford to feed 5 Ssiyans.
The Saiyans for reasons that don't make sense to me do not own the whole economy. But I expect that the all have at least some extra income. No one wants any Saiyan to be desperate if it can be avoided.
 
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