The stonehenge style was what we would build without the knowledge the Khemetri gave us, I'm pretty sure we will build something different now.

@Academia Nut does the knowledge the Khemetri gave us change how we will build PttS from it's initial design?
Edit: Also what does our Spiritual Advisor think about how the two sites compare?
That's a good question and the best one objectively.
@Academia Nut
Spirit Chief: What are each of the sites better at?

Why would it do that? Because the Mayans did it to show off?

The star mirror gives us the same frame, sunk into the ground.
Because the Star Mirror is basically the same type of structure that the Greeks used to figure out the circumference of the Earth(they got it right too)



"Nee, Highlander-ku~n...we're still friends, right? You would never break my trust again...r̋̾ͬ͟i̷̴̶̿̈́̉̑ͮͪ̐g̷̀̄̎̂ͧ͛͌͛̂͜h̵̓̄ͣ̍̾ͩ͊͐ţ̿̌͘͠♥?"
Terrify had taken whole new depths really
The NTP is unnecessary and will require a merc company that leaves us exposed.

this is the whole depth astronomy thing veekie is bringing up
It can be performed w/o relying on a still pool, w/ no loss in accuracy because whatever we build can be made to accommodate our standards, whereas the pool is much harder to change.

Horse Valley also has cultural benefits via being in the neglected Stonepen and bordering the Heavens Horse - who have recently taken in new nomadic tribes-, better sight lines in case we do want to study the sun and moon or the wider horizon, etc.

Okay the sites here.
Black Mirror/Star Mirror
-Very high accessibility, by Catamaran, you can visit it within a 3 day journey from any coast on the Black Sea.
-Situated on the primary route between our two main temple sites.
-Reflecting pool(which mind you, is deeper and clearer than anything we can construct until explosives or Industrial age optics) provides unique frame of reference for the sky, allowing for earlier development of depth study and grant different insights from the Khemetri Place to the Stars.
-Already near a forming city at Blackmouth.
-Somewhat more protected from Nomad hijinks

Horse Valley
-Limited accessibility, the land route to Horse Valley is poor for anyone not in Stonepen, Stallion Tribes or Heaven's Hawks
-High altitude and view over the Steppes allows for improved identification of constellations and celestial omens.
-Will form the seed of a new city. Whether this is good or not depends on the situation.

I really want to save Horse Valley for when we develop optics and can build an Observatory on it in the next era.
 
So our astronomers have predicted the arrival of the comet. I am pretty sure they didn't predict that it would strike the TH (remember, they said "This could have been them, and their predictions only gave vague warnings!"). It is well known however, that the comet always brought wide-scale societal unrest in the past (Starpox, climate change, etc.) So what was the actual prediction if we clean off most of the mumbo-jumbo?

"There will be large scale unrest among everybody around us. This will put the People in a weakened position if they get bogged down in the HK (because we know those guys can fight very well at home). To avoid the consequences, take a strong stance agaianst the TH before the unrest hits. This will bring the Swamp People closer to us, the HK won't attack us and it can make the TH pull back and hopefully kill itself off. If the TH decides to attack, than we will also hav etroops in position."

Think about what would have happened, if we didn't listen. Simply the Doom Comet showing up would have caused some unrest among our people, and if you couple that with whatever happens outside our lands... We propably could have avvoided the catasthrope, but it would have been hard.

It was the best kind of prophecy, vague enough to be intrepreted multiple ways and actually useful.
 
[X] [Conq] Take the northern lowlands (Thunder Speakers become vassal, Txolla annex additional territory, gain Ruined Thunder Horse as vassal, remainder fragment, -4 Econ and 4 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassal)
[X] [Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econ damage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ next turn)
[X] [PttS] Horse Valley
[X] [PttS] 0 Stability
[X] [Diplo] Send out reassurances (Sec Trade Mission to Khemetri, Trelli, and Harmurri)
[X] [PSN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)

And convinced, especially considering the source of the really good diplo in the future is likely to come from the traders. Shudders.
 
So our astronomers have predicted the arrival of the comet. I am pretty sure they didn't predict that it would strike the TH (remember, they said "This could have been them, and their predictions only gave vague warnings!"). It is well known however, that the comet always brought wide-scale societal unrest in the past (Starpox, climate change, etc.) So what was the actual prediction if we clean off most of the mumbo-jumbo?

"There will be large scale unrest among everybody around us. This will put the People in a weakened position if they get bogged down in the HK (because we know those guys can fight very well at home). To avoid the consequences, take a strong stance agaianst the TH before the unrest hits. This will bring the Swamp People closer to us, the HK won't attack us and it can make the TH pull back and hopefully kill itself off. If the TH decides to attack, than we will also hav etroops in position."

Think about what would have happened, if we didn't listen. Simply the Doom Comet showing up would have caused some unrest among our people, and if you couple that with whatever happens outside our lands... We propably could have avvoided the catasthrope, but it would have been hard.

It was the best kind of prophecy, vague enough to be intrepreted multiple ways and actually useful.
They believed that the Doom Comet would land near the dragon and the dragon egg. Even if the comet hit the HK, core Ymaryn provinces would've been affected as well.
 
[x] [Conq] Push to the East (Gain all previously listed territories, forces actively fight with surviving Mountain Horse cities, -8 Econ and 8 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassals and distant war missions)
[x] [Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econ damage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ next turn)
[x] [PttS] Black Mirror
[x] [Diplo] Send out reassurances (Sec Trade Mission to Khemetri, Trelli, and Harmurri)
[x] [PSN] Lots more black soil (Main Black Soil, -2 Centralization)
 
Econ has been updated. We are now up to date at 16 Pop-boom per turn.

And it is probably going to go up to 18 next turn, assuming we go through with integrating something...
Okay, NOW that makes sense. The stats I was using were apparently outdated due to AN not updating yet. Yes, it probably would be best to go Black Soil to squeeze out that Econ one more time.
 
They wouldn't be as fearful if they realized that we don't actually want to conquer them.
They just assume that we do, because that's what they would do if they were us, and we don't ever contact them in any meaningful way, so they have no idea what we are like or what our culture is like.
The fact that we stand in isolation from all of our neighbors, and then go out and fight people, makes us known as "the strangers with a lot of stuff and land". If we don't try to start building relations with out neighbors, that's all they will ever think of us as, and they will start trying to take our stuff as soon as we seen vulnerable because they have no reason not to attack us.
I've still only seen like two people explain their reasoning for voting for Black Mirror, so I'm not sure why it has so many votes.

And a secondary trade mission to 3 nearby polity this one time doesn't really do a whole lot with pacifying scared polities. You know, since we do not have will of any sort on regular trade mission. People still trade with us strangely.:V

As for the site selection, no one is required to explain anything. Like how the dice doesn't care what the voter want, they just do what they do.
 
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I don't believe so. I think that overflow IS the refund from the 3 econ.
What?
The refund from the True Cities automatically consuming econ is not overflow.
Overflow is a separate process akin to or identical to the return from spending econ on an action. This approach is made even more likely due to the fact that it only refunds as much EE as we have cities.

Because the Star Mirror is basically the same type of structure that the Greeks used to figure out the circumference of the Earth(they got it right too)
And what structure was that?

One that they built, perhaps?

Okay the sites here.
Black Mirror/Star Mirror
-Very high accessibility, by Catamaran, you can visit it within a 3 day journey from any coast on the Black Sea.
-Situated on the primary route between our two main temple sites.
-Reflecting pool(which mind you, is deeper and clearer than anything we can construct until explosives or Industrial age optics) provides unique frame of reference for the sky, allowing for earlier development of depth study and grant different insights from the Khemetri Place to the Stars.
-Already near a forming city at Blackmouth.
-Somewhat more protected from Nomad hijinks

Horse Valley
-Limited accessibility, the land route to Horse Valley is poor for anyone not in Stonepen, Stallion Tribes or Heaven's Hawks
-High altitude and view over the Steppes allows for improved identification of constellations and celestial omens.
-Will form the seed of a new city. Whether this is good or not depends on the situation.

I really want to save Horse Valley for when we develop optics and can build an Observatory on it in the next era.
-Why does high accessibility matter for an observatory?
-It's already on the religious trail, regardless. A less trafficked trail than Blackriver, which is a trade trail, admittedly.
-A unique frame the effects of which we can replicate.
-So what?
-How is it more protected? Because it has an ex-march between it and the nomads? Horse Valley has an actual march between it and the nomads.

-Which is a reason to push for more traffic, not to wave your hands and call it a loss.
-Sure. So too does BR offer a unique advantage, I'd call this a wash except that a better vantage point is less replicable.
-So it's a mixed point.

We can just build an observatory at the already-establish starviewing site when we get that technology.


Our entire argument is basically:
-"[Blackriver has more traffic so let's give it more traffic.]"
-"Horse Valley doesn't have enough traffic and we should give it more."
-"[Blackriver has a replicable natural mirror which will somehow be alterable so that we can track the exact position of stars.]"
-"This can be imitated by architecture at the low low cost of having some constellations blocked by rock, similar to how the pool's rim limits our view."
-"I really want to save Horse Valley [for later.]"
-"I don't see how using it damages our ability to develop it later."
 
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[x] [Conq] Push to the East (Gain all previously listed territories, forces actively fight with surviving Mountain Horse cities, -8 Econ and 8 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassals and distant war missions)
[x] [Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econ damage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ next turn)
This would put us at -4 Economy.
 
What?
The refund from the True Cities automatically consuming econ is not overflow.
Overflow is a separate process akin to or identical to the return from spending econ on an action. This approach is made even more likely due to the fact that it only refunds as much EE as we have cities.
Okay, let me rephrase that then, I do not believe we are getting +6 EE. We are getting +3 back. I am trying to say that Primal's numbers for what gives us things are wrong and are counting the same thing twice, without actually knowing the terminology for everything.
 
And a secondary trade mission to 3 nearby polity this one time doesn't really do a whole lot with pacifying scared polities. You know, since we do not have will of any sort on regular trade mission. People still trade with us strangely.:V

As for the site selection, no one is required to explain anything. Like how the dice doesn't care what the voter want, they just do what they do.
No one is ever forced to explain anything, but it just seems rather odd that so many people are voting for something and not giving their reasons.
I would have less of a problem with it if I understood why so many people thought it was superior to the Horse Valley site, which numerous people have given reasons for being better.
 
The gods have ripped the heart from the Thunder Horse, and an army stands at their doorstep. How much is conquered?
[] [Conq] The land is cursed, pull back (Thunder Speakers break away, rest of the Thunder Horse fragment into desperate city states)
[] [Conq] Just the western parts (Thunder Speakers become vassal, Txolla annex additional territory, rest of the Thunder Horse fragment into desperate city states)
[] [Conq] Take the northern lowlands (Thunder Speakers become vassal, Txolla annex additional territory, gain Ruined Thunder Horse as vassal, remainder fragment, -4 Econ and 4 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassal)
[X] [Conq] Push to the East (Gain all previously listed territories, forces actively fight with surviving Mountain Horse cities, -8 Econ and 8 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassals and distant war missions)

The body of the Thunder Horse dissolves, leaving behind the flesh of its people
[X] [Refugee] Take as many who run to you (4 temporary Econ damage, -4-5 Econ Expansion, +4-5 Econ next turn, chance of stability drop)
[] [Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econ damage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ next turn)
[] [Refugee] Use the military to evacutate as many as possible (8 temporary Econ damage, -9-11 Econ Expansion, -2 Stability, chance of further loss, +9-11 Econ next turn, incompatible with most ambitious conquest option)

Reaction for this turn: Beginning construction of the Place to the Stars. Where should it go, and should any stability be kicked into it?
[] [PttS] Black Mirror
[X] [PttS] Horse Valley
[] [PttS] 0 Stability
[] [PttS] 1 Stability
[] [PttS] 2 Stability

Everyone around you is a little terrified right now, how to engage diplomatically?
[X] [Diplo] Send out reassurances (Sec Trade Mission to Khemetri, Trelli, and Harmurri)
[X] [Diplo] Victory lap (Main Salt Gift)
[X] [Diplo] Let's maybe spread out in case the gods throw another bolt (Found Far Northern Trade Post)
[] [Diplo] Stay home, write panic driven poetry (Main Build Theatre)

At home, there's a whole lot of religious gardening going on...
[] [PSN] Push forward forests (Sec Expand Forests, -1 Centralization)
[] [PSN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[] [PSN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)
[] [PSN] Lots more black soil (Main Black Soil, -2 Centralization)
[] [PSN] Push forward farms (Sec Expand Econ, -1 Centralization)
[X] [PSN] Massively push forward farms (Main Expand Econ, -2 Centralization)
[] [PSN] Keep it under control (Do not activate this turn)

I think these options take maximum advantage and help avoid losing Stability by going negative on econ.

Golden Age Ahead!
 
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Okay, let me rephrase that then, I do not believe we are getting +6 EE. We are getting +3 back. I am trying to say that Primal's numbers for what gives us things are wrong and are counting the same thing twice, without actually knowing the terminology for everything.
I consider your conclusion to be without base and in contradiction with our knowledge of True City mechanics.

<3
 
I hope either Martial crazies aka Spirit touched martial genius' get called something cool like Blood of the Dragon, or at least her decedents get called that.
 
They believed that the Doom Comet would land near the dragon and the dragon egg. Even if the comet hit the HK, core Ymaryn provinces would've been affected as well.

If magic isn't real, then i'm convinced that an alien have planted a listening device on Dragon-chan and toss a giant rock at her enemy.

If magic is real, then it's just probability. :V

To be honest a 10 year-old isn't a egg.

No. Hereditary is bad.

Bit late on that part.
 
I consider your conclusion to be without base and in contradiction with our knowledge of True City mechanics.

<3
Then why did you find my questions about his assumptions confusing and seemingly off if they are right? Also, I am just going by what the statistics page says here. We are losing -16 and gaining +3 by the end of this turn without modifications from actions.
 
So much catching up to do while distracted...

-Should we have more true cities, since we had 3 at 18 EE with 5 possible cities, and now we have 11 EE with 7 possible cities?
Answered in conversation: Will double check, but the math has changed around a bit.
-Shouldn't we have 18 tech, not 15?
-So the thread has a citation, can you confirm 1. that we got +4 econ from "good harvests" (either predictive astrology, or good environmental rolls i presume, you didn't specify in the convo), and 2. that study stars didn't pay out this turn due to adjusting to the new tech?
-Since we won't be seeing the action list for another turn or two due to Hertythn being way too long lived, would you be willing to share the following things, the first of which is important for planning and the next 3 are both interesting to me personally and hopefully will help inspire the thread to actually have constructive discussions about them and planning around/for them, instead of devolving into more problems for manus :p
1. The expansion limit for keeping redshore a city
2. The listing for the Artisan Competitions megaproject
3. The Listing for the Ironworks megaproject, or whatever it is that we unlocked in redhills with the aqueduct near the mines
4. The listing for the gymnasium...building? extended project?
-Does our new debilitating belief force value change immediately if nemesis changes?
-What happens if we have no nemesis?
-Will giving up our CB on the HK stop them from being our nemesis?
-Will choosing yes apply any war missions yet, or will that have to wait? Will we still get a midturn reaction chance, or will that be used up by the war? We now know exactly what it will do :V
-Do we have intervention cb against the Storm Wolves? ...For that matter, what are the Storm Wolves up to? Is the hero son still around, and still fighting the metal workers?
-how often do we get new faction quests, after completing previous ones?
-did we get any innovations from tinrivers docks this turn?
-Are we trading case hardened iron? or just regular iron?
-Did we succeed in the traders quest with the iron trade? you said it was possible, but not guaranteed.
-Can you confirm that the difference for the iron is that it gives a full +1 wealth on its own, instead of the usual +1 per 2 leading+ values?
-Shouldn't we have an extra settlement count for our walls, with the new province? We went from 14/45 to 16/45. ...On that note, where did the second wall come from? Did you go back and decide one of our integrated subjects, like the stallions, had more walls than you originally put or something?
A couple very minor things for the civ sheet:
-Baby boom/pop explosion should be +8, not +7 with our new province
-Annex limit should be 12 now, instead of 11 (2 + 8/2 + 6)
-Subordinate count didn't update with the Dragon Banner company
-Iron says "dominant" instead of the usual "Dominating"
And some questions that remain from before:
-Does the additional guild actions round up like the province actions? i.e. now that we have 8 provinces, do we have 1 main guild action, or 1 main + 1 secondary?
-To clarify your previous answer for the western wall integration, would a single (secondary) integration action get us 2 provinces from them? Or is each action 1 province and we can do so 2 times currently?

I'm going to stick with the stats as they are now.
There was a boost from good harvests.
I will list the new buildings in good time, Hertythyn will be busy with things over the next little while. For True Cities a recalculation is definitely in order after three potential ones, so...

Actually, yeah, tomorrow will be map updates, reworking some math, informational posts, and informational side story stuff. That should clear out some the question backlog.

Once you complete a faction quest, you get a new one the next turn.

If you can avoid having a nemesis, then maybe the DB goes away...

Wow... @Academia Nut i'm a little confused...were there two meteor strikes, one to the west (somewhere in our territory, or maybe somewhere out near but not on our war camp i guess?), one on the TH city, or was there just one, and the first wall of sound was "just" the meteor passing through the air?
Also, shouldn't we have 18 tech?
(You know, in case all my questions in the analysis post aren't enough :p)

The first boom was the meteor passing over the heads of the war camp, the second was the actual impact reaching them.


Astrology warning.

@Academia Nut, do we gain any Prestige from this?

Gave some, but was initially just going to wait to see what your actions were.

Do any of these conquest options make it so we have less exposed boarders?

Nope, the further you go the more exposed they will be.

So did the comet land right on top of their city? Or did it just graze it?

It wasn't a direct hit, but it was a Tunguska grade blast, so "land directly on top" is a bit hard to judge with a 10-30 Mt explosion affecting a Bronze Age city.

@Academia Nut How often do we conduct the census, and what is our current population as of the last taken one?

About once every ten years it gets updated.

does the knowledge the Khemetri gave us change how we will build PttS from it's initial design?
Edit: Also what does our Spiritual Advisor think about how the two sites compare?

You will incorporate more information into the design.

Spiritual Advisor thinks that Horse Valley is better for building big and seeing, Star Mirror for pure mystic power.

does the Cent/3 on our econ reduction round up or down?

Up.

@Academia Nut, it was a woman who founded the Red Banner Company and it was a woman who founded the Dragon Banner. Is this going to affect our culture in some way?

Probably, yes. I will address some of this with fluff information.
 
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