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Paths of Civilization

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Well, Theatre has no chance of winning, and I've been convinced of the immediate, tangible benefit of a Trade Post (Pop Explosion still OP) so I figure I'll help swing the vote away from Reassure.

[X] [Conq] Take the northern lowlands (Thunder Speakers become vassal, Txolla annex additional territory, gain Ruined Thunder Horse as vassal, remainder fragment, -4 Econ and 4 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassal)
[X] [Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econ damage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ next turn)
[X] [PttS] Black Mirror
[X] [PttS] 0 Stability
[X] [Diplo] Let's maybe spread out in case the gods throw another bolt (Found Far Northern Trade Post)
[X] [PSN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)
 
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[X] [Conq] Just the western parts (Thunder Speakers become vassal, Txolla annex additional territory, rest of the Thunder Horse fragment into desperate city states)

[X] [Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econdamage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss,+6-8 Econ next turn)

[X] [PttS] Horse Valley
[X] [PttS] 0 Stability

[X] [Diplo] Send out reassurances (Sec Trade Mission to Khemetri, Trelli, and Harmurri)

[X] [PSN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)

The only vote that really makes sense is to be moderate. Maximum refugee means stability drop and no golden age. Maximum conquest will weaken us further, we just aren't compatible with it.

Horse Valley is the best sight. It literally says it in the text so choosing otherwise either means you are making an uninformed decision or just don't listen to the facts.

PSN can be anything. Don't really care but we shouldn't spend all our centralization.
 
Abby Normal said:
I think you missed the point i was going for, but while i was writing out how it would work, i realized that i was thinking about it wrong. We don't lose expansion from overflow. We just only gain a limited amount of expansion back for overflow. So we always pay the full expansion price for Expand Econ/Baby Boom. But then we gain expansion up to our true city count back when we overflow.
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That is what I was trying to point out...
 
[X] [Conq] Push to the East (Gain all previously listed territories, forces actively fight with surviving Mountain Horse cities, -8 Econ and 8 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassals and distant war missions)
[X] [Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econ damage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ next turn)
[X] [PttS] Horse Valley
[X] [PttS] 0 Stability
[X] [Diplo] Victory lap (Main Salt Gift)

- going with Horse Valley based on its description as the 'premier' star-gazing location
 
Our people build a motherfucking canal with rock tools. Rock. Tools. It's hard to build canals today, with excavators the size of small mountains.

A big reflexive swimming pool? Please, it'd be far, far from our greatest achievement in engineering. There is a holy site explicitly called out as being the best for studying the sky.

[X] [PttS] Horse Valley

It'd be nice if we could, y'know, hit a Golden Age once in a while.

It's kind of important to be able to look at the big picture in order to realize what patterns are there. Looking at a tiny slice of the sky that's further distorted by being reflected on a natural pool of water isn't the way of doing it. You need to look at the sky to do it, a starlit valley is immensely superior to a clearing in the middle of a forest.

Hell, there being traffic means that light pollution might just crop up.

We also have glass. All it takes is a happy accident to get to lenses. Or entering a Golden Age.
 
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[X] [Conq] Take the northern lowlands (Thunder Speakers become vassal, Txolla annex additional territory, gain Ruined Thunder Horse as vassal, remainder fragment, -4 Econ and 4 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassal)
[X] [Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econ damage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ next turn)
[X] [PttS] Horse Valley
[X] [PttS] 0 Stability
[] [Diplo] Let's maybe spread out in case the gods throw another bolt (Found Far Northern Trade Post)
[X] [PSN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)

Voting for Horse Valley mainly to have strategically located Temple next to HH.

Edit: Change Diplo vote

[X] [Diplo] Send out reassurances (Sec Trade Mission to Khemetri, Trelli, and Harmurri)
Adhoc vote count started by Finite on Aug 6, 2017 at 1:26 AM, finished with 96680 posts and 56 votes.
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[X] [Conq] Take the northern lowlands (Thunder Speakers become vassal, Txolla annex additional territory, gain Ruined Thunder Horse as vassal, remainder fragment, -4 Econ and 4 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassal)
[X] [Refugee] Use the military to evacutate as many as possible (8 temporary Econ damage, -9-11 Econ Expansion, -2 Stability, chance of further loss, +9-11 Econ next turn, incompatible with most ambitious conquest option)
[X] [Diplo] Victory lap (Main Salt Gift)
[X] [PSN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)

Take in everyone. This is not the time to be cold-hearted. So what if we do not get golden age, a neighboring country just got colony dropped. We have more important things to take care of.

Still unsure about the observatory location, so I will abstain for now.

Take a Victory Lap. If we are going to absorb large amount of people, we need to make sure our remaining neighbors stay awed.

Taking up Black Soil to ensure we have sufficient Economy Expansion slots available.
 
veekie said:
Because it's not better. Manmade means of demarcating the sky are left with the question of "what portions of the sky do we cut off?"

This invariably goes "we follow the track of the sun from equinox to equinox" and "we follow the track of the moon from phase to phase" in pretty much every culture. This is because the sun and moon are more powerful symbols in religious rituals, people get the 'wow' effect from seeing the sun rise exactly in the spot where your astrologers have built a window, at exactly the right time.

The natural feature lets us study the deep sky, which is less flashy and prominent, but would lead to an earlier access to paying attention to the motion of the stars and planets

Pick showmanship vs science I guess.
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It's not like a giant pool is any better for demarcating the sky and thus performing depth astronomy than a giant stone circle around the sky. Nor does it truly matter that we're cutting certain parts of the sky off from study - so does the pool's limited radius. There's always that thing where we make a tiny hole and the light shines through it. Camera obscura?

Plus, there's the question of societal issues like what the benefit of having more traffic through the parts of the north which aren't already trade centers will have.

That's your opinion.


[X] [Conq] Take the northern lowlands (Thunder Speakers become vassal, Txolla annex additional territory, gain Ruined Thunder Horse as vassal, remainder fragment, -4 Econ and 4 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassal)
[X] [Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econ damage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ next turn)
[X] [PttS] Horse Valley
[X] [PttS] 0 Stability
[X] [Diplo] Send out reassurances (Sec Trade Mission to Khemetri, Trelli, and Harmurri)
[X] [PSN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)
 
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Andres110 said:
Unnecessary, sure, but not without benefit. The benefit here is a larger improvement to our culture and being even more proud of the things we're doing here.
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But a Golden Age immediately in the wake of this calamity would do far more to promote this in the Ymaryn group conscious, even from a perspective of helping others, than simply tanking our pop book and preventing an immediate GA would even if it's more refugees. To say nothing of the fact that the fewer refugees we take in, the less fall through the cracks and wind up just as abused and taken advantage of as before.

It sounds all well and good to pat ourselves on the back for going maximum refugee but like anything in life, it's nowhere near as clear cut as you suggest, even from a strict moral interpretation.

I'm fucking baffled after some of the screw ups we've had handling refugees before that absolutely no one has considered the potential issues of using a levied military to enact mass evacuation procedures in the fucking Iron Age, on a foreign people no less.

Let's ignore the risk of us unintentionally forcing people to come to Ymar proper, what do you think the message presented externally if right after the disaster there are massive, impoverished refugee coloumns flanked by military formations?

We can't look at things purely mechanically, nor can we look at them through a simplistic narrative lense either. We need to think about the implications behind such. I'll admit to a bit of paranoia here, and I don't think it would truly wind up going awful, but there seems a definite risk of misrepresentation, cultural clash and confusion, and simple lack of understanding of the entire issue.

State enforced evacuations are an entirely different beast then purely voluntary refugee intake, and we need to be careful when we make that step.
 
I think people should be made aware that Txolla is now almost 2/3 the size of old Xoh (Dead Priests) empire(s). Do we really want Txolla (PTSD-chan) to get anymore territory in the lowland? When it's direct government control is hugely expanded and overall power increased thanks to our cultural and tech?
 
[X] [Diplo] Victory lap (Main Salt Gift)

Now is the time to take full advantage of what happened. If we absorb this land then we are going to need the prestige.
 
Umi-san said:
we'd only be saving 3 Econ worth of people and would be rendered unable to hit a golden age which would provide marked cultural benefits.

depth astronomy

if we make a stonehenge style thing we're basically fine
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The stonehenge style thing is exactly what was described. You deliberately have to cut off sections of the sky to provide suitable frames of reference, but determining WHICH parts of the sky to cut off is non-trivial, leading to focusing on the same tracks as everyone else, following the paths of the sun and moon.

The Star Mirror gives us a different frame.
 
Next turn, I want to see our king doing something like
{S} Integrate Colony - Western Wall
{S} Support Subordinate - Heaven Hawks
{M} PttS
{GM} Docks

Integrate Colony to get us more EE slots, and also to get us to 9 provinces (which means a new Secondary! And a new Guild Secondary!)
Support Subordinate as a way to vent stats and to enforce the loyalty of these guys; at dependency 1, we really can't afford them not being maximally loyal.
The rest because we can't not do the megaprojects.
 
veekie said:
Did the incoming Golden Age's +1 to the passive expansions get factored in?
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No, I had forgotten that GA's give that, so after this comment I did go back and look at what Golden Age's give as a status. No, I just looked at the front page to see what we would be losing in econ expansion.

We are losing 14 econ expansion per turn due to BB + PE, and we are getting 3 back from True Cities. We currently have exactly 11 so without any refugees at all, we would have exactly 0 EE (and possibly cause cities to bust, if I am remembering correctly that they need at least 4 EE). The 2nd option for refugees takes 6-8 EE which, without factoring in the GA +1 EE , would leave us with 0-2 EE accounting for colonial overflow.
Academia Nut said:
-Econ Expansion 11 [+3-14]
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Hope our admin King spends his turns doing as much integrating, roads and influence subordinate as possible.
 
VoidZero said:
I think people should be made aware that Txolla is now almost 2/3 the size of old Xoh (Dead Priests) empire(s). Do we really want Txolla (PTSD-chan) to get anymore territory in the lowland? When it's direct government control is hugely expanded and overall power increased thanks to our cultural and tech?
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yes
they love us rn
 
Editing my vote.

[X] [Conq] The land is cursed, pull back (Thunder Speakers break away, rest of the Thunder Horse fragment into desperate city states)
[X] [PttS] 0 Stability
[X] [Diplo] Send out reassurances (Sec Trade Mission to Khemetri, Trelli, and Harmurri)
[X] [PSN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)

I retracted the Refugee and PttS options, because @Karugus and @veekie made good points about the two respectively.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Next turn, I want to see our king doing something like
{S} Integrate Colony - Western Wall
{S} Support Subordinate - Heaven Hawks
{M} PttS
{GM} Docks

Integrate Colony to get us more EE slots, and also to get us to 9 provinces (which means a new Secondary! And a new Guild Secondary!)
Support Subordinate as a way to vent stats and to enforce the loyalty of these guys; at dependency 1, we really can't afford them not being maximally loyal.
The rest because we can't not do the megaprojects.
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Western Wall needs eating i agree, but subordinate and Integrate our lowland vassal into a proper colony is more pressing. Txolla's size and potential power is becoming concerning. So vassal then Western Wall i say.
 
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