- Location
- Australia
Look sorry if I'm being an ass about this I actually respect your a lot I just think you're dead wrong about this tax Stuff.
Last edited:
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Look sorry if I'm being an ass about this I actually respect your a lot I just think you're dead wrong about this tax Stuff.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
*wakes up*
*sees this monstronsity*
HYPERVENTILATION!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SOMEONE HOLD ME! @pblur HALP!
*DIVES BEHIND THRONE*
*shudders*
...
*ahem*
Right, now that that silliness is over, because honestly I had to do that, I can express my actual feelings.
Muha. Haha. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAAHHAHA!
I am feeling awesome right now.
*reads through the three anaylses*
Yep you guys got this covered(also Umi yours is my favorite). Good job all! *looks at the tally* *nods* I will probably vote along the band wagon.
But first! Time to catch up on the silliness and then post a vote.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I don't think not paying taxes is an option here. It goes rather against our ethos of all contributing to the whole, and if it were an option you'd think it would be mentioned in the update. I'd hate to think what happens to the disabled poor in our society.
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
- Location
- Australia
We won't let it be a permanent thing for any individual person but there's always going to be an unskilled unemployed people in cities that's how they work and trying to help them at the expense of the farmers is going to be a nightmare.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
The refugee woman made no mention of the sex worker guild so it either doesn't exist or it doesn't cover refugees. The regulation system is not breaking down, it's effectively non-existent.
If it had existed then can we say that no one mentioned such organization to a suffering women? She is obviously abused and underfed with her living condition (if it counts a "living").
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
[X] [Law] Balance of interests
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
That is the most permanent bonus. We can still change the system through other means I think.
This seems like the best philosophy to me. "Maintain Stability" and "Community Health" are good things, but as lead philosophies they could mean that single people or even single interest groups are ignored in favour of the "corpus" of the people. On the other extreme, "Flexibility" and "Practicality of Enforcement", while also good as secondary philosophies, could mean a too cynical attitude towards certain matters.
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
We can't go coin only. That would be unfair towards the rural regions. People have spoken about incentivizing currency, but this would be more like punishing for not having currency. There needs to be at least one alternative way to pay taxes. And well, everyone has labour.
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
We can't go coin only. That would be unfair towards the rural regions. People have spoken about incentivizing currency, but this would be more like punishing for not having currency. There needs to be at least one alternative way to pay taxes. And well, everyone has labour.
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
Hm. The last option could move us to a free market, but "emergency supplies" may be too few until we truly get there. OTOH, keeping things as they are is economically wasteful.
[X] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
The only values I really care about are Admin and Diplo. Mystic Guy and Martial Guy both are mediocre in that, but "twit" is at least average in diplo, so there's that. Also, compromise is in fact good.
[X] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
[X] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
The only values I really care about are Admin and Diplo. Mystic Guy and Martial Guy both are mediocre in that, but "twit" is at least average in diplo, so there's that. Also, compromise is in fact good.
[X] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
That is the most permanent bonus. We can still change the system through other means I think.
- Location
- Staring into the void
Most likely supported by family. If they have any.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
I think the priests and shamans will find something for they to work while caring for them.
Maybe writing or telling stories to children.
Which you then consider: Under what criteria do you count as being unable to pay taxes?
No source of income? You just generated an incentive to dodge taxes by concealing income through smuggling.
The unemployed will be taxed if they want access to social services, and since said services include a grain ration and healthcare...labor basically translates to minimum wage government employment under our system.
Without which they will be desperate for work for coin. Which means prospective employers can institute completely voluntary terms like sixteen hour work days or other harsh but completely voluntary concessions made by the desperate.
The purpose of a system is to incentivize people to play along with society, not create a system which makes breaking the law the only way to survive.
Again, bullshit. Farmers have surplus unskilled labor, it's what powered the empires of Egypt, Rome, China and Greece.
Corvee is the most favorable farmer payment terms. Farmers get paid for a year's worth of work in grain but only work for about four to six months every year. Taking out a few weeks of government work in the summer to work on the latest crazy government project is how the pyramids got built.
- Location
- Australia
Most likely if you have no family you live as a bagger who the kings men also donates to. Which is better then nothing.
Last edited:
- Location
- Staring into the void
We gained all our previous slots from the narrative.
- Location
- Australia
Sorry i was being overly dramatic with the killing thing but they're going to hate it if they can't pay in food. if 90% of our people hate something then we're going to have problems.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
The slots or the values?
Though, either way, this is an unreliable method of course. I think we should grab value slots whenever we can.
- Location
- Staring into the void
The slots
- Location
- BaWü
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
I think we can stop talking about us being a stone age society, as with this vote we should be at the same development as Rome
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Oh thank Crow someone asked this...
*continues reading, giggles a lot at people being funny*
She is specifically indicated to be working outside of the system because she is ignorant of the rules, for the most part. There is a guild, which she is not a part of, hence her activities being illegal.
She was not told because it was advantageous for those around her not to do so. The entire story was meant to show how the vulnerable elements of society were being exploited by the system.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
The problem is that currency use hasn't spread to everywhere in our realm. So outside of the provincial centres, "work its worth in coin" won't work, because coins just aren't in circulation in our most rural areas. That's the basic problem. That's why we need at least one alternate method of payment besides coins.
And while 90% of our people may be employed in agriculture, that doesn't mean 90% will be farmers. The majority of them will be farm hands, day labourers, etc. The menial workers on the farms. And what about the urban poor and day labourers? They all won't easily have access to surplus food to be paid as taxes. But everyone, absolutely everyone, has surplus labour they can use as taxes.
Would the farm owners prefer to pay in food? Most definitely, but they are only part of the 90% employed in agriculture. And in any case, they would merely be inconvenienced. The classes of people I mentioned would not merely be inconvinienced - they would literally have no way of paying taxes if labour isn't a method.
- Location
- Australia
Look the way I see it either unskilled workers are going to be annoyed as they have to pay taxes in coins cause labour is the thing they have the most of. or farmers are going to be annoyed because food is the thing they have the most of and we have a lot more farmers then unskilled labourers.
Mentioned in a past update:
If you can work, you work. Even if it's some kind of make-work. The disabled probably can teach, but I don't actually expect them to live very long if not cared for, given that between Best of the Best, Honorable Death, Symphony(everyone must play their part), Greater Justice(suffer the few for the many) and the Divine Stewards(work hard for future generations) work ethic...anyone truly rendered useless would probably find a way to quietly kill themselves over the shame of being a drain on society.
Theres no sex worker guild, but...hmm, controlling unwanted pregnancies is mentioned, and the shaman checking on Noha is not doing her job properly:
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
[X] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
Simplicity and Practicality are the end all be all of law. I've said it before and I say it again, a law who's enforcement is more trouble than its worth is flawed. So either the enforcement method needs rework, or the law. This option let's us favour making simple laws with clear thought out consequences and clear enforcement. It the best way to kill corruption as it elements the layers that it can hide in.
[X] [Tax] Coin only
Simplicity, it is the easiest, simplest and frankly best way to get taxes, not only does it shave down the buecracy, but it spreads currency to all layers of the population and economy, giving us great potential for future innovations in all domains. It also kills most chances of corruption specialy combined with Practicality ethos, as a mixed tax system would be large and complex and so a heaven for those with interest in manipulation of the law for thier own benefits. Whilst this leaves them very little room to cheat in.
[X] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
Simplicity, this greatly reduces government overhead, it dramatically cuts down the buecracy. whilst expanding the economy. But most importantly, it gives way for farmers and merchants to get rich,really rich if they can sell food in bulk, our insignificant peasants will become persons of significance. This option is a real bueaty, but if the thread believes there is immense risk of famine anytime soon, well, that's what we have Palace and manoral storage room for no?
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
Mysticism Heros are always interesting to have.
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
This is the most immediate benefit. The others are random or roll based, this is steady.
All this combined should give us a very slim high efficient squeaky clean administration.
Simplicity and Practicality are the end all be all of law. I've said it before and I say it again, a law who's enforcement is more trouble than its worth is flawed. So either the enforcement method needs rework, or the law. This option let's us favour making simple laws with clear thought out consequences and clear enforcement. It the best way to kill corruption as it elements the layers that it can hide in.
[X] [Tax] Coin only
Simplicity, it is the easiest, simplest and frankly best way to get taxes, not only does it shave down the buecracy, but it spreads currency to all layers of the population and economy, giving us great potential for future innovations in all domains. It also kills most chances of corruption specialy combined with Practicality ethos, as a mixed tax system would be large and complex and so a heaven for those with interest in manipulation of the law for thier own benefits. Whilst this leaves them very little room to cheat in.
[X] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
Simplicity, this greatly reduces government overhead, it dramatically cuts down the buecracy. whilst expanding the economy. But most importantly, it gives way for farmers and merchants to get rich,really rich if they can sell food in bulk, our insignificant peasants will become persons of significance. This option is a real bueaty, but if the thread believes there is immense risk of famine anytime soon, well, that's what we have Palace and manoral storage room for no?
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
Mysticism Heros are always interesting to have.
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
This is the most immediate benefit. The others are random or roll based, this is steady.
All this combined should give us a very slim high efficient squeaky clean administration.
Last edited:
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Unskilled workers in rural regions have no ways of getting coins!
So how do you propose they'll pay taxes then? That isn't merely "annoyed", that is flat out "not being able to pay taxes". If coin were such widespread, then farmers can also pay their taxes in coin and the problem is solved. But they aren't!
- Location
- Australia
My guess just tax those areas by the farm not by the person so if you're unskilled farm labour then the farm you work at is taxed not you.