Coin shortage. If we had enough precious metals, we wouldn't need anything except coin tax.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Australia
This here is right just remove the middleman and get people to pay in coin or food in fact the only reason too let people pay in food is to avoid man made famines by all the farmers being forced to grow cash crops in order to pay in coin.
Also labour tax opens the loop hole that the most powerful people like all the king's advisors don't have to pay any tax because they work directly for the king which is what the labour tax is.
- Location
- Australia
Not saying we should do Coin Only, just challenging the idea that we should do Coin+Labour instead of Coin+Food.
- Location
- Philippines
He has had a very poor admin vote record everything else is great just the admin vote
Alternatively the priest realizes that his entire caste is locked out of the Games and adds additional competitions for intellectual and artistic competition?
I don't control the bandwagon, but I'll see what I can do since the logic behind that is good.
Okay look at each of the three items being paid taxes for.
-Coin
--Have
---Artisans
---Administrators
---Traders
---Warriors
---Priests
--Not Have(as defined by people who do not primarily operate near urban centers)
---Farmers
---Refugees
---Half-exiles
-Labor
--Have
---Farmers
---Refugees
---Half-exiles
---Warriors
---Administrators(special case, update says they pay in their skilled clerk work for the state)
--Not Have(as defined by people who are too damned busy to take time out for unskilled labor)
---Artisans
---Traders
---Priests
-Food
--Have
---Farmers
--Not Have(as defined by people who must buy food, and therefore will only pay the cheaper of food or coin)
---Refugees
---Half-exiles
---Artisans
---Administrators
---Traders
---Warriors
---Priests
So you consider the system gaps when coin runs tight
-Current system: Food(for farmers) and Labor(for everyone not farmer)
--Can Pay
---Farmers
---Refugees
---Half-exiles
---Warriors
---Administrators(special case, update says they pay in their skilled clerk work for the state)
--Cannot pay
---Artisans
---Traders
---Warriors
---Priests
You can see the problem.
-Coin OR Food
--Can Pay
---Artisans
---Administrators
---Traders
---Warriors
---Priests
---Farmers
--Cannot pay
---Refugees
---Half-exiles
Result: Systematic disadvantage applied to lower classes.
-Coin OR Labor
--Can Pay
---Artisans
---Administrators
---Traders
---Warriors
---Priests
---Farmers
---Refugees
---Half-exiles
--Cannot pay
Result: Upper classes pay with coin. Artisans pay with coin when business is good, or labor when business is bad. Farmers pay with labor in the off-season. Refugees granted minimum wage.
- Location
- Australia
Our artists are literally killing each other because of the already-present amount of competition. Adding more will not help things.
Since you're talking about the priest's caste, I have to assume you're also suggesting that our shamans begin getting into theological/magical competition. That seems to me like something that'll lead to religious division.
Our value is Symphony. It requires everyone to work with each other, not compete with each other. The Games is inherently competitive and thus inherently against Symphony.
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VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Do you know being injured on the job is quite damaging to your career?
Now imagine our population getting injured or long term injury from working on government labor tax.
Does this sound attractive in any way?
Do we have standards for keeping the labor tax workers fed and sheltered during their work? The past Chinese dynasties certainly tried, and their system was extremely extensive.
Now imagine our population getting injured or long term injury from working on government labor tax.
Does this sound attractive in any way?
Do we have standards for keeping the labor tax workers fed and sheltered during their work? The past Chinese dynasties certainly tried, and their system was extremely extensive.
- Location
- Australia
A better system is just not to tax the most poor people in the kingdom which is what would happen as it's not as if everyone needs to pay taxes. If you put labour in then everyone is taxed because everyone can pay in labour but the wealthiest can potentially game the system easier Which is what they're doing right now.
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- Location
- Australia
@Academia Nut, what kind of tax do we have now? Do we only tax labour or do we also tax food?
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
The farmers and related are ~89% of the population, this item completely outweighed other considerations.
The refugees are already being taken advantage of under current labor law, so labor + coin doesn't seem like an improvement.
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If you're a farmer, we apply a flat tax of X mass/volume of food. (not sure which) Otherwise, you must provide a flat amount of labor time to the government.
This worked long ago, but as our economy diversified our government labor options can't keep up and we don't want to risk untrained people doing high-skill jobs so the only labor option was unskilled labor. But due to the income inequality, it's horribly inefficient to have highly skilled artisans doing unskilled manual labor so they pay unskilled workers to take their place.
- Location
- Staring into the void
Inserted tally
Noxious
An excellent host
- Location
- South Africa
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
- Location
- Australia
The only reason why we put the labour in the first place is because we didn't have it coins then when we set it up
we are asking people to pay in labour now or Labour they already did
Coin=Labour - Location
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- Location
- Australia
You're forgetting the material cost of coin. Coins need silver and other precious metals to make. Swapping out labour completely for coin means we need to be able to pay every single person who does labour in coin.
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
@Academia Nut
How full of life is our controlled forest? Can a person go hunt in the forest and put meat on the table?
Also, can we (state) fund problem for giving a hen to poorest families on a yearly basis?
How full of life is our controlled forest? Can a person go hunt in the forest and put meat on the table?
Also, can we (state) fund problem for giving a hen to poorest families on a yearly basis?
This is working as intended. If they work for the government, then they don't pay taxes but they don't get paid for that time because they are paid in tax deductions, and THEN they start getting paid for the remaining hours.
Engaging in contests of knowledge, oratory or magical skill actually helps avoid religious division. Same reason why sports vent excessive aggression.
See the leading legal philosophy: [] [Law] Community health
We already provide public healthcare funded by the state via Sacred Warding projects. Also we already include additional food rations and reduced labor needs for those who are sick, injured or pregnant(this is one of the reasons Naha may have deliberately gotten pregnant, since it relieves her burdens).
As such the state is incentivized to eliminate injuries and illnesses during their labor, because the state pays for it.
Which is not an option. We tax everyone.
And the bolded is actually wrong
If you tax coin-only, it's hard to game the system.
If you tax coin or food, then the most poor are forced to pay with their food rations if they cannot obtain coin. The wealthy are able to game the system by performing currency speculation with grain.
If you tax coin or labor, then the most poor are forced to pay with their labor if they cannot obtain coin. The wealthy are unlikely to use the labor payment option because they get far more coin for an hour of work than the tax demands to begin with.
- Location
- Australia
True that's why I want 90% of our population to be able to pay in something else.
- Location
- Panama City
You mean like labor?
- Location
- Australia
@veekie, I think that these are the trap votes, not Coin+Labour+Food. Our people already pay in Labour or Food. This would be a simple addition of allowing people to pay with Coin instead. Coin+Food means our people have to STOP paying labour as tax. Coin+Labour means our people have to STOP paying food as tax. The two options aren't just creating an addition, they're each creating a restriction. Coin+Food+Labour means we just add one thing rather than add one thing AND remove one thing. C+F+L will create a lot less disruption than any of the other options.
The only thing it changes is that it allows our artisans, our wealthy, and our elites to pay in coin. Nothing else. The other options, in addition to that, will change the way either our rural poor or our urban poor pay taxes.
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- Location
- Australia
Or as I said the poorest shouldn't pay taxes at all but they will have to if the labour tax goes through. It's not like we're going to let people starve it goes against all our values.
And they gaming the system now if the price of labour is lower then the coin tax then they can game the system. also the king's advisors are of course paid in some way or another or they have another source of income they're the most powerful elite members of our society of course they wealthy and if you are working for the king why would you need to pay any other taxes.
- Location
- Australia
The food plus labour tax isn't them a trap option
Coin - materials = labour - location
Labour plus coin is the trap option because you're asking people to only pay in labour