1) Already acknowledged and dropped ever since AN jossed that

2) The Trelli do not have absolute naval superiority. They have the advantage of maneuver and boarding experience, which means they get to pick fights, but due to fights being boarding based, they will actually need to work for it, ganging up on smaller convoys to succeed against our better equipped warriors. This is because shipboard fighting is where troop quality matters a great deal, numbers cannot be leveraged as easily.

3) As AN said, they'd go for a blockade. Actually denying us farmland would be too difficult, but denying us resupply and grinding us down by attrition does work. This in turn means that theres no quick victory, if they can fry our farmlands easily it'd be over in a turn.

4) Explicit Word of AN that a Blockade would prevent us from sending Support. Which is the context of "we should build boats over Send Support", because we cannot send support without boat uptechs

Does that make it clearer? Its not the strawman of "meh we can take them", its "the key here is in getting the ability to break their blockades before they grind the Red Banner down"

1. Ok, sorry.
2. Partially so:
They're using fast galleys as interceptors, so they haven't really worked on ramming as an actual tactic, but if you're smaller enough they have no compunctions about running you over.

I am not sure whether it means they can just squish our ships, but it seems that they at least have a shot at developing ramming if we war.

4. We'd need both though. ~20 years (one turn) of intermittent siege is a lot, especially for freshly-placed colony.

Like...yes, they key is getting to break the blockade before they grind down RB. While also paying attention to nomads, to Lowlands which will probably be soon attacked because Lowlands and no climate change and to other stuff that pops up here and there.
I doubt we can manage all of the above, given that I think we'll need all of the next turn's action directed to the new Trade Post if we commit. Double Main Boats + Secondary Boats would probably bridge the gap enough.
Which is not a bad action plan with Baby Boom meaning we need resources, huh.

-If they have 3 Trade Dominances(such as gained by taking the West Trade Post site for themselves), rather than 1, you can extend their failure timespan to 20-30 turns, because of the power of passive income from Center of Trade.

I mean...we are their large trading partner, so I do not think they'd have nearly as good a lifespan without our mercury, Tyrian Purple and stuff and without us, in turn, buying up silver and other goods.
 
Reasonable enough on the former, but the latter is a more farfetched claim because we've been there ourselves.
What about Bungie's point that the Khemetri will likely get in on the act, with way more gold than the Trelli, and other Mediterranean powers will too? Leading to a huge bloodbath that the Trelli no longer control.

At that point, we may well start picking up refugee waves from Trelli.
Adhoc vote count started by ThrawnCA on Jul 15, 2017 at 8:45 AM, finished with 76595 posts and 115 votes.
 
Very much so, but burning up 4 Econ per turn takes some effort. And although we know that the cities can convert overflow back into slots, I don't think we know the exact limits on that, especially with such a large potential overflow.

The baby boom is amazingly valuable for megaprojects, and I don't want to endanger it. If we think we can handle it, OK, let's go for gold.

Actually - I suppose there is one thing to be said for Golden Age. Innovations tend to drain stats, yes? So that might help us bring things under control before the baby boom overflows absolutely everything and Martial goes over cap.
Alternatively, we can build all the Salterns, Aqueducts and Temples. A mere secondary would use two econ and a main would be double that. I would even push for double main to see what non-linear effects means in the context of extended projects.
 
Alternatively, we can build all the Salterns, Aqueducts and Temples. A mere secondary would use two econ and a main would be double that. I would even push for double main to see what non-linear effects means in the context of extended projects.
If we have the actions available, I'm cool with that. Salterns are great. Aqueducts... eh, true cities get increasingly fragile as you make more of them.

Someone (veekie maybe?) suggested that our norias might even give us more options for saltern sites. Cool.
 
Personally, I still think we should in fact commit to cutting Trelli off tin access. So I have voted WTP and will keep voting it. But if we don't do this, I'd very much rather have the ETP than the NTP. There is the saltern thing, and then there is the fact that it would be a foothold in the second not!Anatolian river valley, so it would be perfect for expansion plans. Plus, resupply station should we re-enact the Anabasis in order to smack Trelli on land. But I'd prefer slow escalation over that.
Heh you are against the killing of the baby killers but you are all for denying an integral resource to another civ, you are also against offensive wars and wars of expansion but apparently is all for needling someone to start a war themselves so tell me what will the history books write about the ymaryn is this another black mark? After all cutting off tin access to a bronze age civ would be like cutting oil away from a modern day nation you may as well kill them out right if that is the case.
 
If we have the actions available, I'm cool with that. Salterns are great. Aqueducts... eh, true cities get increasingly fragile as you make more of them.

Someone (veekie maybe?) suggested that our norias might even give us more options for saltern sites. Cool.

We are not going to have actions available with either West or North TPs. :V
 
I assume our crops are all surface based so they are vulnerable to damage via burning or weather.

If trading missions are sent out, would they look for new plants / farming methods ?

I really want for us to get a potato or something underground. It's much harder to destroy a crop if you cant just burn quickly.
 
Heh you are against the killing of the baby killers but you are all for denying an integral resource to another civ, you are also against offensive wars and wars of expansion but apparently is all for needling someone to start a war themselves so tell me what will the history books write about the ymaryn is this another black mark? After all cutting off tin access to a bronze age civ would be like cutting oil away from a modern day nation you may as well kill them out right if that is the case.
As I've explained before, the land of the potential WTP is apparently Terra Nullis - unclaimed land, free for all to claim. We would hence well be within our rights to do exactly that. This is a great difference to just going to Trelli and attacking them because we want their Bosporus access.

Also I doubt the average craftsman in Xoh had killed many babies.
 
As I've explained before, the land of the potential WTP is apparently Terra Nullis - unclaimed land, free for all to claim. We would hence well be within our rights to do exactly that. This is a great difference to just going to Trelli and attacking them because we want their Bosporus access.

Also I doubt the average craftsman in Xoh had killed many babies.
While they did not kill their babies themselves they may have given them up to sacrifice. You talked about cutting tin off from the trelli which will slowly kill them we may as well attack them and take their city that is far more merciful and less time consuming also it is clearly stated that placing a trade post is will provoke the trelli.
 
While they did not kill their babies themselves they may have given them up to sacrifice. You talked about cutting tin off from the trelli which will slowly kill them we may as well attack them and take their city that is far more merciful and less time consuming also it is clearly stated that placing a trade post is will provoke the trelli.
It's not like we're planning on just hoarding a big pile of tin like a dragon... embargo is a threat we can use as leverage, not our goal.
 
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Actually, with the baby boom happening, a Golden Age might give us hard-to-manage levels of Econ. Like, +6 per turn (+4 net after cities). It would be a real shame to run out of slots and pop the baby boom with overcrowding.
Overflow refunds slots.

So that might help us bring things under control before the baby boom overflows absolutely everything and Martial goes over cap.
It is basically impossible for us to overflow everything if we don't want to.

If nothing else, Influence Subordinate (which we all think is a useful action), costs nine resources per major action (well, eleven, but the mystic is refunded). So really, venting resources if we need to isn't a problem at all.
 
While they did not kill their babies themselves they may have given them up to sacrifice.
All of them at one point. Right. Okay. Whatever you say.

This is of course very blatantly an attempt to justify matters after the fact. Instead of accepting that yes, what our civilization did there was an evil thing - let's learn from it and not do it again (hell, wasn't half the last update about exactly that attitude?)

You talked about cutting tin off from the trelli which will slowly kill them we may as well attack them and take their city that is far more merciful and less time consuming also it is clearly stated that placing a trade post is will provoke the trelli.
So what if they're provoked? If they start the war, then they are in the wrong. Claiming Terra Nullis territory in order to control the tin flow is well within our rights and something else entirely to just going out and conquering places for imperialist reasons.

Also, what @pblur said. What I meant with "cutting off" is having the leverage to do that, if for example the pirate crisis gets worse. Not something we should immediately do after establishing the trade post.
 
Overflow refunds slots.


It is basically impossible for us to overflow everything if we don't want to.

If nothing else, Influence Subordinate (which we all think is a useful action), costs nine resources per major action (well, eleven, but the mystic is refunded). So really, venting resources if we need to isn't a problem at all.

It will be so lol-worthy, if we overflowed so hard, our Martial went up to red from everything overflowing.

Ymarn-problems.
 
@pblur

Something has gone horribly wrong with your edit of the first post on this page. 9 word pages worth of random letters and numbers...

/E: Gone now... heh.
 
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This is of course very blatantly an attempt to justify matters after the fact. Instead of accepting that yes, what our civilization did there was an evil thing - let's learn from it and not do it again (hell, wasn't half the last update about exactly that attitude?)
Not really I mean if given the choices that we had back then now I would still choose Phygriff because he was the second best of four shitty choices sure the patrician was the most stable one but I did not want to be at a negative equilibrium by putting phygriff in it placed us at gun point to either lessen the north south divide or face civil war.
 
@Academia Nut,
What do we know about the taiga tribes? Are they bone and flint using Hunter gatherers? Semi settled? Or proto germanic Tribal confederations?

And why exactly is the red banner needed? For possible Nomadic incursions on the river routes? Wildlife, Bandits or opportunistic tribals? Or as escort for the large convoy heading out to establish the post?

Lastly, is it the actual taiga or the forest belts to the south of it?
 
I am not sure whether it means they can just squish our ships, but it seems that they at least have a shot at developing ramming if we war.
Oh you completely misread that.
Fast galleys, aka the Cutter design, are a Speed Speed Size model, which while capable of capsizing smaller ships(like the pre-docks vessels and possibly our Outriggers), not suited to ramming equal sized vessels or larger vessels(like our longships) until they develop true rams.

Rams are relatively poor options for sinking longships however. The construction is better at impact resistance, though again, it won't show up yet.

Basically yes they can just run over our fishing boats, but not our longships. For those they do boarding actions
4. We'd need both though. ~20 years (one turn) of intermittent siege is a lot, especially for freshly-placed colony.

Like...yes, they key is getting to break the blockade before they grind down RB. While also paying attention to nomads, to Lowlands which will probably be soon attacked because Lowlands and no climate change and to other stuff that pops up here and there.
I doubt we can manage all of the above, given that I think we'll need all of the next turn's action directed to the new Trade Post if we commit. Double Main Boats + Secondary Boats would probably bridge the gap enough.
Which is not a bad action plan with Baby Boom meaning we need resources, huh.
Reasonable to push some Support their way even if the Trelli don't declare war then, the more resources the harder it is to crack them if they do later.
And spam boats.

But Boats are probably slightly better off, our periphery states will be building boats of their own to catch up, but they can't Support Subordinate like we can.
I mean...we are their large trading partner, so I do not think they'd have nearly as good a lifespan without our mercury, Tyrian Purple and stuff and without us, in turn, buying up silver and other goods.
Yes. That's one of my arguments that a war is NOT inevitable, because it's immensely expensive to fight us, and gets MORE expensive with the WTP.
What about Bungie's point that the Khemetri will likely get in on the act, with way more gold than the Trelli, and other Mediterranean powers will too? Leading to a huge bloodbath that the Trelli no longer control.

At that point, we may well start picking up refugee waves from Trelli.
Depends on if they wreck their own trade advantage. Reminder that the WTP would give us full control over Black Sea trade, i.e. the whole reason that the Trelli are rich, and if they fight us they lose the Black Sea trade.
If we have the actions available, I'm cool with that. Salterns are great. Aqueducts... eh, true cities get increasingly fragile as you make more of them.

Someone (veekie maybe?) suggested that our norias might even give us more options for saltern sites. Cool.
Yep, pumps to move seawater above the waterline.
I assume our crops are all surface based so they are vulnerable to damage via burning or weather.

If trading missions are sent out, would they look for new plants / farming methods ?

I really want for us to get a potato or something underground. It's much harder to destroy a crop if you cant just burn quickly.
Burning crops is harder than it sounds. Nobody has oil yet. It'd be actually rather hard to burn them. Easier to salt them(but thats for us.)
 
Come to think of it, did we ever go to the ruin of Xohyr to get things and precious metals that survived the sack? Would be wasteful just leaving them to random marauders.
 
Reasonable to push some Support their way even if the Trelli don't declare war then, the more resources the harder it is to crack them if they do later.
And spam boats.

But Boats are probably slightly better off, our periphery states will be building boats of their own to catch up, but they can't Support Subordinate like we can.

If I am sure thread votes for Double Main Boats + Secondary Support next turn, I am quite fine with this. It will give us influence, and back it with show of force....risky, but okay.
Thing is, we still have Palace in the owen and nomads in the backyard, so I am not sure whether we will have actions for that combo.
 
Still catching up, but here's my votes (hope it hasn't closed)

[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, East
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
 
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