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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
 
[X] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
 
[X] Clear vote
I dunno what ill vote for now, but in the meantime, might write a Trelli negaverse.
@Academia Nut whats their government system, what do they know about us, and do their 'players' know anything about our traits?
 
Kiba said:
Can the Ymaryn ever find a non-asshole state?
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There are temporarily non-asshole states, but all states go through an asshole phase, one way or another.
Thus, the only 'nice' people are the ones who get destroyed or assimilated before they do something icky.

Academia Nut said:
Station at least one mercenary company there full time and then hope the environment doesn't screw you over for the first three turns.
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...that sounds like a recipe for doing it paired with a Main Support Subordinate to them in the same turn, so that they start off with Econ 4, and thus are unlikely to die completely by random environmental damage in the first turn? If we push 2 Econ their way every turn then they're likely to live long enough to figure out the biome.

Is that even possible?
 
pblur said:
I think this is partially due to you winning on the action economy argument. Our action count has DOUBLED in the past 220 years (from 18->36). That means that we actually can juggle a lot more stuff at once.
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I do forget how people seem to have a harder time shifting their conclusions than me.

If this is true, then it is a shame, because a notable part of our problems exist precisely because we have so much action economy.
  • The Stallion tribes give us better military but threaten to split off from us.
  • Hatvalley is a culture we have not integrated and need to do so to keep them loyal.
  • The Lowland Vassals need a culture reform to help them stop being so aggressive and incorporated into our empire.
A large number of people constantly point out actions that would decrease our action economy are needed to deal with these problems, such as integrating, and no one is arguing with this being needed. I even remember AN mentioning that creating periphery states to increase our action economy is the sort of thing that introduces stress to our government.

That is to say, while action economy is great and all, it doesn't matter too much if it effectively goes towards nothing but putting out fires.
Reader of all said:
This whole series of events has happened before with the Spirit Talkers whenever we feel that a civ will be a major threat in the future we sabotage them we did it when we sent out the nomads to cause chaos in the lowlands, we did it to the spirit talkers when they were about to diplo annex the nomads, we blocked the HK from getting access to the sea now we are about to do it to the Trelli.
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We also stepped out of the war in the lowlands when we had some of the best land to gain, avoided going to war with the HK when our troops started one for us, and tended to strive towards peaceful relationships and influencing cultures through trade missions for quite some time. No, while we have done some stuff people have rarely willfully started a war directly. I think this attitude really is new.
PrimalShadow said:
It is very simple to explain: people just go by whatever they saw last.

Consider our latest couple of turns.
Cultural friction - We had just learned about the tax crisis. Hit things off by going Palace x2, trying to finish it ASAP.
Palace plans - We just saw the palace annexes. A multitude of people vote for 8 annexes, despite it adding 7 extra actions on our palace megaproject. There is also widespread support for a capital that requires a significant amount of short-term work in return for benefits way in the future.
Make the punching stop - We had the mine collapse. People neglect the megaproject to the point of losing the bonus Law Action to make the "thematics" of our response fit their preferred aesthetic.
Shifting winds - We are told that the Trelli have started using currency and mercenaries. Oh, and they are making pirate noises. Clearly, we must action on this immediately.
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Doing the palace fast was understandable, but the majority of people did not vote for all of the annexes, and people only really voted for the festival because they didn't want to go back into yellow centralization. The argument that the festival was as effective, let alone more effective, at making sure new rules were followed than enforcing justice was, and continues to be, self delusion. Enforce Justice is literally meant to deal with that sort of situation.

Many of us have constantly just interpreted the result into what we want and/or expect to happen. Thus, while one could easily look at what people are doing and saying it's nothing but reactionary, everything can be said to be that to some degree, so I have trouble believing that is the genuine reason.


No, I don't know why people have become more aggressive, but I don't think these are the reasons. Well, I have some theories, but... eh, not enough desire to see if they hold weight by looking back through the thread or going through the trouble of laying them out in a clear and concise manner.
 
bluefur87 said:
That is to say, while action economy is great and all, it doesn't matter too much if it effectively goes towards nothing but putting out fires.
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It both gives us more fires to put out and provides us with more ability to put them out.

It definitely means that at any given time, we're way more likely to be putting out a fire AND doing something buildy.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Just as a note. This is the first time I've seen so far that the Terrify action might actually come in handy. After all, Trelli isn't just a polity with a True City - it is all True City. And If the Trelli start sending pirates at us, that needs to stop.
We'd probably want to wait until we had the forces there to actually carry through on our threats, but still.
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I'm pretty sure the Trelli aren't a true city. Check the update we got sacred forest as a true city to be sure, but I'm almost certain they're "just" a big city state...
Reader of all said:
@Academia Nut do the trelli have the needed mega projects in place to use currency without causing problems and if not from our advisors estimates how long till they experience a tax crisis?
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We need those megaproject because of our economic system, because being heavily centralized and communal and having an extensive tax code is hard. The Trelli are a much smaller civ, with less communal system, probably with less complicated taxes, and so on, so they'll have much less of an issue from it. Probably not *no* issue, but it's a lot harder to make money by moving tablets around and showing that gold costs less money in hatvalley than in Valleyhome, when the state has less control, and the civ is so much smaller.
 
pblur said:
Make REALLY good slaves
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Thinking about it I don't actually think there are any Ymaryn in slavery, we won our wars in the Lowlands and even then the Lowland Minors that might have been taken aren't true Ymaryn yet, also we don't deal in slaves as it is against our religion. I can't see Ymaryn in slavery numbering more than a couple dozen traders perhaps attacked on the roads or something...
Makes you wonder how valuable a Ymaryn slave would be due to its rarity, exoticness and beauty
 
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, East
[X] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
 
Academia Nut said:
It is assumed to come at the end of the phase barring exceptional skill. If you are asking about the steady income and expenses those have already been dealt with for the turn.
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I was asking about baby boom / city tax. I do see that they have been taken care of this turn, but I wondered if next turn's would be available in time for our turn actions or if it would only be available after, at midturn
 
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[X] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
 
bluefur87 said:
A large number of people constantly point out actions that would decrease our action economy are needed to deal with these problems, such as integrating, and no one is arguing with this being needed. I even remember AN mentioning that creating periphery states to increase our action economy is the sort of thing that introduces stress to our government.
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It has also been confirmed that provinces strain our admin much more than peripheries, and that our government simply cannot handle the addition of multiple provinces at thus time.

Before we integrate we have to finish the current crisis, which means at least palace, census and ideally law(Iron Age).
 
I would play the hell out of this game if it were a PC game.

Also if we get a major civil war or fall apart as a civ I will be devastated because i have now become invested in our little civ.
 
bluefur87 said:
I even remember AN mentioning that creating periphery states to increase our action economy is the sort of thing that introduces stress to our government.
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Explicitly the reverse.
Core provinces add administrative stress proportional to centralization level and inversely proportional to connectivity(i.e. roads).
Periphery states costs very little administrative stress, but add cultural divergence and balancing concerns due to diverging interests. In exchange they deal with problems, make innovations(we'd have gotten maybe a fifth as many wildcat triggers if not for Hatvalley and Western Wall spamming Surveys, and our boats would still be at level 2 if not for Greenshore building them every turn for 6 turns)
bluefur87 said:
The argument that the festival was as effective, let alone more effective, at making sure new rules were followed than enforcing justice was, and continues to be, self delusion.
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Looking to:
"We encouraged this. Perhaps we did not cause it, perhaps we are free from blame, but are we free from guilt? Could not more have been done? Perhaps, perhaps not, but future generations can never learn and do better if we do not admit fault here, if we do not say, 'We moved too fast because we got greedy'. So, take this tragedy and make it known, let people know that mistakes were made, but that we shall try better in the future. Take the wealth we took from this and turn it back to the community, such that all will know that this was meant to enrich all, and not a greedy few."

And thus it was the lessons were learned and taught, and the People did have the shock of knowing that their leadership could really screw things up with short sighted greed.
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Very deluded yes.
It ensured that more people are aware of such issues, and that the workers know from the tales told at festival that if they see their supervisors and managers doing such things they should appeal to the local or provincial chiefs because this is Wrong Action.

Abby Normal said:
I'm pretty sure the Trelli aren't a true city. Check the update we got sacred forest as a true city to be sure, but I'm almost certain they're "just" a big city state...
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Never got the True City announcement and AN confirmed they weren't one when we met them.
...which neatly answers why they're so big on the slave trade. They've been doing this in the past!
-Trade Mission generates Wealth(or back then, Diplomacy)
-Spend Wealth to buy Slaves(i.e. Econ)

Abby Normal said:
We need those megaproject because of our economic system, because being heavily centralized and communal and having an extensive tax code is hard. The Trelli are a much smaller civ, with less communal system, probably with less complicated taxes, and so on, so they'll have much less of an issue from it. Probably not *no* issue, but it's a lot harder to make money by moving tablets around and showing that gold costs less money in hatvalley than in Valleyhome, when the state has less control, and the civ is so much smaller.
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One city? Trivially really. Our problems came with exchange rate differences and goods value fluctuations from one end of our empire to the other. They can't experience this as a city-state, heck, they make a living out of gouging profit out of circular trading with partners.
 
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@Academia Nut what do our admin and war advisors think of our current ability to wage war on the Trelli? How outmatched are our ships, and how much of the Trelli trade do we tend to make up for example?
 
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
 
Y'know something that really annoys me?
The Legacy of the original Lowlanders, they've spread further and influenced the world more than we have. Yes they may not be alive now but it's still a greater legacy.

They birthed the Xoh empire, which spread from the Steppes in the North to the Not! Himalayas in the East past the Swamps of the South and to Not! Turkey in the West, they birthed the Highlanders who have stood in their mountains for many centuries and who are cousins of the Hathatyn, who in turn birthed the Trelli.

The legacy of the Lowlanders stretches from the Not! Himalayas to the Not! Bosphorus and Not! Thrace. Maybe the Lowlanders didn't last as long as us but they have sure as hell left a legacy, the First City, such a widespread ethnic and cultural basis and the First Empire, and it really annoys me how such a brutal people have had such an impact on this world.
 
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McLuvin said:
Y'know something that really annoys me?
The Legacy of the original Lowlanders, they've spread further and influenced the world more than we have. Yes they may not be alive now but it's still a greater legacy.

They birthed the Xoh empire, which spread from the Steppes in the North to the Not! Himalayas in the East past the Swamps of the South and to Not! Turkey in the West, they birthed the Highlanders who have stood in their mountains for many centuries and who are cousins of the Hathatyn, who in turn birthed the Trelli.

The legacy of the Lowlanders stretches from the Not! Himalayas to the Not! Bosphorus and Not! Thrace. Maybe the Lowlanders didn't last as long as us but they have sure as hell left a legacy, the First City, such a widespread ethnic and cultural basis and the First Empire, and it really annoys me how such a brutal people have had such an impact on this world.
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That's what they get for expanding FAR beyond their ability to maintain as a coherent state. They just dropped a new settlement basically every generation until a stability drop or natural disaster hit...then they broke into thousands of pieces.
 
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