We need to prioritize survival, not getting shinnies. The bare minimum annexes please.
A bare minimum palace is almost completely worthless.

The increased cent tolerance comes from decreasing the workload of the King (Library, Storeroom) or by making ways for the King to be less stressed (Temple, Gardens)

Some of these things are also very hard to make as later extensions, such as the Grand Hall Extension or the Gardens.
 
We're not at risk of fragmenting as long as we otherwise tread water.
To prevent secession: support the north.
To end the war: fight it.
To deal with the tax crisis: create wealth.
 
And the provinces can't possibility be shirt-sighted or foolish, right? It's convenient for them, it's also setting up another geographic cleavage to add to the existing ones. pass.
How are they short sighted for wanting the closest and fastest route to the capital that benefits all of them? Redshore sits on a rivee each province, March periphery and colony can reach with comparable ease. It'll also make taking remainig empty Hahtyn land much eaiser and the HK sits on a river as well.
 
Our advisors? AN explicitly said it pays off better in the longterm and in story its our provinces pushing for it not our advisors.

However, it probably is a better location for the extreme long term.
AN said it's probably better in extremis. And AN has also made mistakes when it comes to predicting the path we're going to try and tread. It's entirely possible through another Phygrif or #FuckTheNomads vote any purely hypothetical value in Redshore as our capital vanishes.

We have to account for the fact centralization is already a problem, that we're already far and away the most urbanized civ in the region, that another city means draining even more econ- and a lot more actions to prevent it becoming a clusterfuck. And actions are already incredibly limited right now due to the war in the Lowlands.

People need to get their heads out of their asses rather than latching onto 'possibly better in the long run' and immediately assuming it's inherently the right course of action.
 
We're not at risk of fragmenting as long as we otherwise tread water.
To prevent secession: support the north.
To end the war: fight it.
To deal with the tax crisis: create wealth.

Our attention is divided between all three.
A bare minimum palace is almost completely worthless.

The increased cent tolerance comes from decreasing the workload of the King (Library, Storeroom) or by making ways for the King to be less stressed (Temple, Gardens)

Some of these things are also very hard to make as later extensions, such as the Grand Hall Extension or the Gardens.

They cost the same regardless. 2 econ, 2 art. Unless you mean something different.
 
A bare minimum palace is almost completely worthless.

The increased cent tolerance comes from decreasing the workload of the King (Library, Storeroom) or by making ways for the King to be less stressed (Temple, Gardens)

Some of these things are also very hard to make as later extensions, such as the Grand Hall Extension or the Gardens.
Err, the update outright says the "bare minimum palace" would be a major improvement in and of itself:
Frankly, half the reason that they were drawing up the plans for a new palace complex was that the current residence of the king was too small to hold all of the important people, their advisors, the people to keep all of those people fed and clean when they were spending the whole day arguing with each other, and going elsewhere was eating up administrative time with unnecessary walking for all involved. Just having a bigger residence that could house everyone and keep them close together and close to administrative experts would massively ease the headaches of governance. However, the council arguments over the design and location of the palace were already quite intense.
The annexes are important, but they're not the only benefit we're getting from the thing...and as others have said, the more expansive we make the thing, the longer it is until we get any of its benefits at all...

Also, as i mentioned before, the comment about the Grand Hall Extension and the gardens was AN responding to a question about aesthetics, not cost or functionality, so until/unless he clarifies, his earlier WoG saying that adding new extensions after this is possible, if at a slightly greater cost, is the relevant thing to look at, imo.
 
Missing a word here a pretty important one....

Oh yeah, extreme.

What's the use in causing all these short to mid term issues when we are already in crisis, if we don't even survive to the extreme long term to get the benefits what's the point in trying to get there?
You know what your right, we haven't thought in the long term for a while now so why start now. We haven't done any of our extended projects or kept even our trails up to date so your right to think the thread won't dedicate the time to make Redshore a proper capital.
 
How are they short sighted for wanting the closest and fastest route to the capital that benefits all of them? Redshore sits on a rivee each province, March periphery and colony can reach with comparable ease. It'll also make taking remainig empty Hahtyn land much eaiser and the HK sits on a river as well.

I already explained this: Because it will cause a rivalry with Valleyhome we can ill afford and because of the action sink as we try to build aqueducts for them while bleeding wealth from the tax crises.
 
Inserted tally Edit: Tried managing the votes, I hope I matched them correctly.
Adhoc vote count started by Spacegnom on Jul 9, 2017 at 4:56 PM, finished with 71792 posts and 63 votes.
 
Last edited:
Current Tally:
Adhoc vote count started by gutza1 on Jul 9, 2017 at 5:02 PM, finished with 71802 posts and 64 votes.
 
:rolleyes:

We've most certainly thought for the long term before. When we might break up and not get a long-term, though, is a really bad time to be ignoring short-run costs.
If we thought long term we would've built the Palace and kept our trails up to date and have temples all over our nations right now. Thinking long term includes more then just pushing for tech advances it involves reacting to problems before they become a wide spread crisis. Trails and general infrastructure isn't sexy in the face of water mills and alchemy but they are what keep Empires around.
 
Just a reminder: Unless we want major problems from lack of fresh water, Redshore is the equivalent of building 3 additional annexes in terms of costs. It needs to be a True City ->2 Mains, 8 stats spent. Each annex is 1 Main, 2 stats

Library x2 -> This is a cost-neutral action because we're going to be going into the Census soon afterwards, so getting the full refund would be very nice. After the Census is completed it's pure profit. It also helps admin.

Great Hall Expansion -> This is hard to add on later, and is a major cultural unity helper.
Gardens -> This is hard to add on later, and is a very important part of our spiritual and cultural paradigm. It also synergizes very well with a Great Hall Expansion, creating a very impressive transition.
Especially large great halls that lead in part to gardens had the potential to be quite impressive
 
If we thought long term we would've built the Palace and kept our trails up to date and have temples all over our nations right now. Thinking long term includes more then just pushing for tech advances it involves reacting to problems before they become a wide spread crisis. Trails and general infrastructure isn't sexy in the face of water mills and alchemy but they are what keep Empires around.
Yeah, and since we didn't, we're forced to make more short term choices. It sucks, but we simply can't afford to build an aqueduct to Redshore at this time, and I for one don't want to find out what unpleasant effects of getting a true city through overcrowding rather than aqueducts are.
 
You know what your right, we haven't thought in the long term for a while now so why start now. We haven't done any of our extended projects or kept even our trails up to date so your right to think the thread won't dedicate the time to make Redshore a proper capital.
It's time we don't have and resources we can't really spare overly well. No need to start attacking the entire thread over shortsightedness when you aren't looking around at our major issues besetting us and the situation we are currently in, think about it, can we afford to spend time fixing Redshore after we build without aquaducts considering how time is of the essence? Can we afford the strain of another True City and even if we make Valleyhome a Free City can we afford to have a highly politicised, high population vipers nest in our central territories whilst we are going through an Admin crisis?

There is one short term reason to say yes, one that ignores the Lowlands situation and several reasons to say no that would help our civ even survive.

Survival is needed now, don't take the risk for a long term gain that could hurt us even worse. Don't look to the future and forget the present
 
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