Paths of Civilization

Raichu1972 · Jul 8, 2017

[X] [Main] Grand Palace
[X] [Main] Grand Palace x2
[X] [Secondary] Expand Economy

Welp, that's a change in my vote.

Significant strain is not needed, even if it might start causing problems later.

Rakuhn · Jul 8, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Definitely worse, don't know how much worse though. The extra province would be a significant strain at least.

Cue debate on which level of severity "significant" implies.

ctulhuslp · Jul 8, 2017

Umi-san said:
2) Doing both the GP and the integration is great statwise, but puts great strain the system in the meanwhile. It leads to a much slower resolution of the admin problem. I

Or outright gives us too much strain. We are on the edge, and a 'significant strain' sounds bad:

Academia Nut said:
Definitely worse, don't know how much worse though. The extra province would be a significant strain at least.

Integrating right after Palace would be quite reasonable, I think.

Andres · Jul 8, 2017

Integrating the Stallion Tribes will result in admin strain but ultimately it's still something we have to do. The north is still drifting away from us, the Stallion Tribes will still build their temple, and we still need the stats it'll give us. The temple problem in particular is time-critical and this turn may be the last chance to integrate them before they build it, going by the actions they did last turn.

ctulhuslp · Jul 8, 2017

Andres110 said:
Integrating the Stallion Tribes will result in admin strain but ultimately it's still something we have to do. The north is still drifting away from us, the Stallion Tribes will still build their temple, and we still need the stats it'll give us.

Yes, but we can do it after building the project which ensures it will not fuck us over? It's, like, 3 turns delay.

Rakuhn · Jul 8, 2017

If we don't take expand economy this turn, it seems likely that we'll pop Sacred Forest's status as a true city.

Edit:
Wait. We have 11 economy expansion in the stat screen, but only 6 econ expansion in the action screen. Is the former our econ cap?

Glassware · Jul 8, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Yes, but we can do it after building the project which ensures it will not fuck us over? It's, like, 3 turns delay.

I suppose it depends in part on when the Stallions are planning on building the temple.

@Academia Nut, are the Stallions planning to begin construction this turn? What are their art and mysticism at; did they get any from Western Wall's actions last turn?

VoidZero · Jul 8, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Yes, but we can do it after building the project which ensures it will not fuck us over? It's, like, 3 turns delay.

That's wayyy too long, we are making progress but they are too.

The risk involved told me to start now.

Kiba · Jul 8, 2017

May I suggest Distribute Land? It could ease the burden.

Umi-san · Jul 8, 2017

Rakuhn said:
Cue debate on which level of severity "significant" implies.

why did you quote that statement.. and yeah, there will be a debate over this, starting now.

ctulhuslp said:
Or outright gives us too much strain. We are on the edge, and a 'significant strain' sounds bad:

significant needn't = too much.
We'd have to know how large the province we got from the WW was to judge the potential impact on our cent cap.

ctulhuslp said:
Integrating right after Palace would be quite reasonable, I think.

Will be 2 turns from now with megaproject support policy, 2-4 turns from now with a simple M GPx2 + 1 2nd. 2 if we switch to MPP next turn and it only takes 5. The stallions meanwhile will be strengthening their infrastructure themselves.

I am underestimating the potential admin risk. Overestimating the potential secession risk.

Andres · Jul 8, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Yes, but we can do it after building the project which ensures it will not fuck us over? It's, like, 3 turns delay.

That is far too long. We had a three turn countdown after Phygrif died and while the trails have given us some time, it hasn't given us enough for 3 generations worth of time. They'll get their temple well within 3 turns and after that things will start going wrong very quickly.

Glassware · Jul 8, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Provinces for Projects: Valleyhome, Redshore, Stonepen, Sacred Forest, Northshore, Blackriver, Redhills, Southshore, Hatriver

Hm, looks like the province we got from Western Wall is unnamed or unlisted?

ctulhuslp · Jul 8, 2017

VoidZero said:
That's wayyy too long, we are making progress but they are too.

The risk involved told me to start now.

I suspect that risk of them overburdening our system is greater than risk of them breaking away due to 1 temple in a measly couple of turns.

Andres110 said:
That is far too long. We had a three turn countdown after Phygrif died and while the roads has given us some time, it hasn't given us enough for 3 generations worth. They'll get their temple well within 3 turns and after that things will start going wrong very quickly.

What three turn cooldwon? 'sides, they've mellowed out after getting some cool things.
@Academia Nut , are Stallions at significant risk of breaking away within, say, next generation or two?

Crowhunter · Jul 8, 2017

[X] [Main] Grand Palace
[X] [Secondary] Integrate March - Stallion Tribes
[X] [Secondary] Integrate March - Stallion Tribes x2

Andres · Jul 8, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
What three turn cooldwon?

Countdown, not cooldown, and it was either something AN said or something veekie said which AN confirmed.

ctulhuslp said:
'sides, they've mellowed out after getting some cool things.

Like I said, the trails have bought us time, but it hasn't fixed the problem and it hasn't gotten us 3 turns worth of time.

The temple they build will still give them religious independence from the south and entrench the differences between northern and southern values. We need to be the ones who build it.

Neptune · Jul 8, 2017

Umi-san said:
2) Doing both the GP and the integration is
a) great statwise.
b) However, it puts great strain upon the system in the meanwhile.
c) It leads to a much slower resolution of the admin problem.
d) It is as likely as not to end the war faster, but will garner the necessary stats to end it next turn.

Strain isn't a truly awful thing, as previously Academia Nut has menitoned we've been on the verge of an administrative innovation improvement for a while, and this would be one of the ways. The actual strain would be limited by the province mechanics itself, as by intergrating the province we'll automatically drop down a centralization if the gifting of the province by the Western Wall was any indication.

This also helps solve the actual cultural problems that reared in the past with the northern parts of the polity, and it means we can construct the Temple ourselves on the natural wonder site.

A side note is that this turn Rwlwyna should be being elected King, and I believe she's either heroic diplomacy or heroic adminstration, so will be able to manage the integration.

Glassware · Jul 8, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
I suspect that risk of them overburdening our system is greater than risk of them breaking away due to 1 temple in a measly couple of turns.

The issue is more that if they create the temple on their own initiative, they won't be staffing it with orthodox shamans from the Sacred Forest, meaning there will be some divide regardless which is worsened by our poor infrastructure. If our priests can't travel between the two easily some level of religious division will ensue, and our poor road network makes that a near-certainty. By the time the roads are fixed the theological divide may be set in stone, setting us up for religious strife in far future turns. However, if we control when the temple is built we can have it made when our road network and transportation is more satisfactory and our theology more secure.

Andres · Jul 8, 2017

Neptune said:
A side note is that this turn Rwlwyna should be being elected King, and I believe she's either heroic diplomacy or heroic adminstration, so will be able to manage the integration.

The best that'll happen this turn is that she gets elected heir. We'll get her as queen only as early as next turn, if ever.

Sivantic · Jul 8, 2017

Abby Normal said:
Econ 5 -> 5:
5 + 2 (Refugees) - 1 (Festival) - 1 (???)
Hmm...i'm definitely out of practice here; anyone know what i'm forgetting?

Actually

@Academia Nut what happened to the Econ from our Expand Forest action?

Abby Normal said:
Art 6 -> 9:
6 + 2 (Festival) + 1 (??) = 9

Mysticism overflow

Kiba said:
May I suggest Distribute Land? It could ease the burden.

Well we did just expand a forest, we could do a survey instead.

[X] [Main] Grand Palace
[X] [Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Stallion Tribe
[X] [Secondary] Survey Lands

This sets us up for reduced Centralization to build further roads and ensures the Stallion Tribe is happy with us

Umi-san · Jul 8, 2017

@Neptune Yes.

Rulwynna will only become Queen if she desires it, however.

ctulhuslp · Jul 8, 2017

Glassware said:
The issue is more that if they create the temple on their own initiative, they won't be staffing it with orthodox shamans from the Sacred Forest, meaning there will be some divide regardless which is worsened by our poor infrastructure. If our priests can't travel between the two easily some level of religious division will ensue, and our poor road network makes that a near-certainty. By the time the roads are fixed the theological divide may be set in stone, setting us up for religious strife in far future turns. However, if we control when the temple is built we can have it made when our road network and transportation is more satisfactory and our theology more secure.

Andres110 said:
The temple they build will still give them religious independence from the south and entrench the differences between northern and southern values. We need to be the ones who build it.

Given that we've just managed to deal with theological bullshit of lowlanders, I think your fears of northern-southern divide are way out of proportion.
Like seriously, do you believe that in ~40 years our all values will drift apart too much to be mended (or, with our writing and roads, drift at all)?

George · Jul 8, 2017

[X] [Main] Grand Palace
[X] [Secondary] Integrate March - Stallion Tribes
[X] [Secondary] Integrate March - Stallion Tribes x2

DocMatoi · Jul 8, 2017

[X] [Main] Grand Palace
[X] [Main] Grand Palace x2
[X] [Secondary] Expand Economy
welp

Killer_Whale · Jul 8, 2017

[X] [Main] Grand Palace
[X] [Main] Grand Palace x2
[X] [Secondary] Influence Subordinate - Stallion Tribe

Umi-san · Jul 8, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Given that we've just managed to deal with theological bullshit of lowlanders, I think your fears of northern-southern divide are way out of proportion.
Like seriously, do you believe that in ~40 years our all values will drift apart too much to be mended (or, with our writing and roads, drift at all)?

Considering the social and cultural differences that already came into existence inside the ST and which have by all appearances deepened and perpetuated themselves, these fears are by no means disproportionate.

Considering that we had to deal with the theological bullshit of lowlander priests who were pretty much 3rd tier or lower (didn't live in Xohyr, for some reason came to our lands), I am not convinced that we will not struggle against priests derived from our own approach to religion who are familiar with our magic and know all of the given explanations. It will be harder to combat what differences arise when we cannot baffle them into submission or bring up the clear superiority of our own gods.

Paths of Civilization

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

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Theoretical Lover of Girls

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