Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
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- Original
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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- Lickwidget
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- She/Her
Yep!
Obviously the Ymaryn's reaction to stress is to build really big or time-consuming things.
Hmmm... This will have consequences when we get to the Space Age.
I would not, but that'd probably because I'd exit thread for a few hours to vent elsewhere.
When a decision actually matters, I can respect those who hold opposing views(though annoying if I think they're wrong or simply not reading discussion, they made an choice), but the "whatever, cointoss" method really aggravates.
Nothing new. It was already discussed back when we first got religious authority that:
-Pros:
--Resistance to cultural change
--Boosted cultural propagation
--Boosted pilgrimage
-Cons:
--Less rational reactions to crisis/events can be forced. We've seen this show up a few times and rejected it successfully then.
--Increased conservative/dogmatic qualities
---Resistance to innovations contrary to dogma.
---Resistance to beneficial new values
--Politicization of priesthood.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Ymaryn dudes and dudettes: "SPACE IS BIG AND ITS SCARY!"
Us: "Did you know you can build even bigger things in space?"
YDD: "... really?"
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Want to increase it so random cat-rabbit-fox thing can't impersonate a member of the clergy?
I for one would blame it's the people's fault for leaving loop hole everywhere. 
Next service will be held after the turn update or after MOD appeared, to celebrate; be it good or bad.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Pro: More rational reactions to crisis/events can be forced.
Which is highly valuable at present, because we need the Martial from We Have Reserves and with the Stallions our Econ cap is around 17.Another reason for supporting the city. I think that we will get ~8 LTE from the stallions, if not more - and that puts us at 24 or 25 LTE if we don't get the city. That means we can't go BELOW 10 econ without popping a true city.
We're now semi-permanently stuck in. Econ is an effective way to maintain a high effective Martial.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Oh yeah, derp. *slaps forhead*
The Yes vote probably gives +1 to Religious Authority as a side narrative effect. So something like [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest, +1 Religious Authority) is probably closer to the full picture which we can't see.
Walpurgis Knight
Guardian of Folkvang
- Location
- Union of Cascadian Socialist Republics (UCSR)
[X][RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
Betraying our values to save them is hypocritical and likely to lead to the decay of that value.
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
Allowing such flagrant violations of our laws can only lead to problems in the future.
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
The carrot is very important here. We want to change their behavior but it's probably best to do this gradually otherwise, the blowback could hamper our efforts elsewhere.
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
We have other fish to fry at the moment but that doesn't mean their actions should go unpunished. A mere slap on the wrist won't do.
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
The Highlanders seem to be the more immediate threat and I don't want the war to continue or turn against us because of a bad roll. There's a chance the nomads won't attack next turn and we can probably ignore the swamp people until things get more dire.
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X][City] No
Encourage stability but keep the Religious Capital under our direct control for now.
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
We could use the extra manpower if the nomads come knocking again.
Betraying our values to save them is hypocritical and likely to lead to the decay of that value.
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
Allowing such flagrant violations of our laws can only lead to problems in the future.
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
The carrot is very important here. We want to change their behavior but it's probably best to do this gradually otherwise, the blowback could hamper our efforts elsewhere.
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
We have other fish to fry at the moment but that doesn't mean their actions should go unpunished. A mere slap on the wrist won't do.
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
The Highlanders seem to be the more immediate threat and I don't want the war to continue or turn against us because of a bad roll. There's a chance the nomads won't attack next turn and we can probably ignore the swamp people until things get more dire.
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X][City] No
Encourage stability but keep the Religious Capital under our direct control for now.
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
We could use the extra manpower if the nomads come knocking again.
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
[X][RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X][City] No
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X][City] No
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Did you have a Red Banner vote?
See a few times before:
-Famine -> Lets burn ALL the food to appease the gods!
-Rodeo -> Punish those animal abusers!
-Metal -> This is cursed I tell you!
-Iron -> You're playing god!
They have their uses, but religious authority is a BLIND force. It reinforces the current cultural position, but that hurts adaptation if too high. Religious Authority sets the nature of the challenge. At low, you face the issues of cultural theft and assimilation. At high, you face the issues of dogmatic rigidity. It's always best somewhere in the middle so your culture is reasonably solid, but you can deliberately reject the religious dogma for a useful development.
Love of Wisdom greatly mitigates it, but by nature religious authority dislikes anything challenging their social foundations.
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Katsuragi
The 1%
*Scratches chin* Is there some inherent reason science and religion can't go hand in hand?
Crow is a dick, but a teaching dick. So far, the People have learned that, yes, with study the world makes sense and you can work out the rules of how everything works. It seems like, so long as The People's Elb...erm, Religion remains tied to love of wisdom and eventually science, it won't actually negatively impact advancement.
Crow is a dick, but a teaching dick. So far, the People have learned that, yes, with study the world makes sense and you can work out the rules of how everything works. It seems like, so long as The People's Elb...erm, Religion remains tied to love of wisdom and eventually science, it won't actually negatively impact advancement.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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I agree with this point but I do want to note that this might be over-generalizing a bit when it comes to the Ymaryn specifically.
I posit that our Religion with Crow as the Creator Force and our Love of Wisdom means that we are approaching the basics of a religion that is far more like Science. One that in the future may be self critical and much less of the conventional definition of dogmatic.
Yeah I was thinking of something along these lines. A society, technocratic in a lot of ways, which uses Science and specifically Questioning as a religion(more like a guiding social Principle at that point, which is what Religions really are when you strip everything away). The Questioning is the important part. It's basically a religion of Curiosity.
We are nowhere near that though. We have a lot of steps between here and there.
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Walpurgis Knight
Guardian of Folkvang
- Location
- Union of Cascadian Socialist Republics (UCSR)
Forgot. Thanks, It's added now.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Good to hear I helped!
I think the criticism of Ymaryn religious authority is ignoring that a lot of what we think of as the Ymaryn virtues are in fact religious virtues- we're seeing that with the lowlanders.
Yes, it's absolutely true that the Ymaryn have despised slavery for centuries if not millenia. But we saw in the Trelli interlude that they despise slavery because the Ymaryn gods say so. Likewise, our Symphony virtues and our Love of Knowledge virtues abso-freakinglutely have a lot to do with our religion- that's why they are Spiritual values and why they are endangered by us coming into contact with another religion.
Like, I know that Veekie's points about the priesthood being conservative 'culture guardians' isn't entirely out of line, but I think he's ignoring that there are a lot of parts of Ymaryn culture that deserve guarding. There are worse things in the world than having a conservative political bloc- hard as that is for SV to swallow. Certainly we could have used some people with a conservative voice to rein us back in a bit during the LAST tax crisis.
Yes, it's absolutely true that the Ymaryn have despised slavery for centuries if not millenia. But we saw in the Trelli interlude that they despise slavery because the Ymaryn gods say so. Likewise, our Symphony virtues and our Love of Knowledge virtues abso-freakinglutely have a lot to do with our religion- that's why they are Spiritual values and why they are endangered by us coming into contact with another religion.
Like, I know that Veekie's points about the priesthood being conservative 'culture guardians' isn't entirely out of line, but I think he's ignoring that there are a lot of parts of Ymaryn culture that deserve guarding. There are worse things in the world than having a conservative political bloc- hard as that is for SV to swallow. Certainly we could have used some people with a conservative voice to rein us back in a bit during the LAST tax crisis.
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Missing a lot of steps yes. For a technocratic society, EVERYONE has to be informed.
The key here is that our debate resolution is:
-Problem happens.
-Common people think, is there an obvious solution?
--If yes, cool, believe it, mention it to the priests
--If no, beg the priests to make this not scary.
-Priests debate it and study it
--If certain, they announce it.
--If uncertain, they request more resources to study it or ask the king for a tiebreaker.
The problem here is that the last step, admitting that they are fallible, is in conflict with a confident and certain religious authority.
By regularly admitting that they need to know more, their authority is weakened. You see similar issues with scientists today, where the use of careful and measured terms(Theory, model) is weaker than the opposition(Look, they are not certain, why believe them).
On the other hand it gives us the power to do things like mix liquid A with liquid B, throw it and it explodes.
Magic, bitches.
Uh no? I explicitly said, repeatedly, that they are culture guardians and reinforce the status quo for good or bad.
They are the force for stasis. Some things are best kept static, but you need to be able to challenge status quo to grow.
Or you wind up with the Spirit Talkers, too static to actually consider their solution and problems.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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- Lickwidget
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Undefinable and unprovable till far far far(beyond us in fact) in the future. I could easily see them shifting to a concept of "Gods" which is basically: <The things I do not know can be found if I watch and learn, and that is how I worship> at it's simplest.
They are getting set up to have some very weird concepts of what a "God" is.
I mean imagine a God you do not worship. Something that is very different from the western definition of "God".
I mean this is starting to get into what do we define as a "God". That is something we in modern society are still kinda figuring out.
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See, I suspect that religious authority is also how we get more sophisticated theology. Which we'll need if we want to hold onto our gods and create social structures that can fight off an evangelizing faith. We're facing serious challenges just from the Xoh faith, and we burned their temple to the ground with their priests inside!
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
@Sivantic @veekie @Katsuragi Sorry if my dice suggestion bothered you. I was just offering it as an alternative if there's a real danger of a tie - which I think we can agree would be much worse than either option. Religious civil war? No thanks.
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You seem to be enamored of the idea of our priesthood as blindly reactionary. That's not really the case.
Look at the actual description of what happens with the horse-riding thing. The priesthood bring the men jumping on horse's backs for sport to the king's attention- this, as far as both they and the young men involved know, is just plain animal cruelty. There's no serious attempt to use horses for warfare, just an attempt to mess around with horses.
The king has a dream about using horses for warfare.
Then- what happens? Do the priests unite against the king and say 'no way, that's impossible, our dogma says that animal cruelty is forbidden'. Nope! Some of the priests say, 'hey this dream could be important, let's not dismiss it out of hand'. The priests argue against each other, but our priests always argue against each other when they're not ready to lynch some douchenozzle who stole and melted down our sacred treasures and nearly started a war by messing around with other people's sacred treasures. I love our crazy Iron-guy, but he was crazy.
Our priests are not a monolithic conservative element- not at all. And I think you're ignoring the major benefits they could offer in terms of indoctrinating the surrounding region in our religious values- Academia Nut has stated that we will be seeing some changes to how pilgrimage affects things in the future and I pretty much bet that a lot of that will be our religious authority making these kinds of stability hits for enforcing our moral stances on things like slavery less painful.
I think you're also ignoring the fact that IRL religious authority has been used to push progressive agendas just as often as conservative agendas- Martin Luther King Jr was a Baptist minister.
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
I think that misses two points:
1) The Red Banner picked the Lowlander faith up from the local population and "secondary priests" (priests who aren't actually Xohyri, but learned from Xohyri priests) at best. The sources of faith for the RB converts can't have had a very sophisticated theology, either, probably way more primitive what our gods have.
2) The entire draw of the Lowland Religion is its simplicity. Priests declare A to be so, and hence A is so.
I agree with you that our own low RA and their high RA is the problem, but this has IMO nothing to do with sophistication, in fact quite the opposite. This is indeed about authority - the dogmatic certainty of the Lowland Priests.
I suspect theological sophistication would be mysticism, which we have had overflowing for several turns now.