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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [Prog] Build Glassworks (-1 Econ, +2 Art, increased chance of new innovations)
[X] [Refugee] Those who arrive on their own (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Value] Thunder Speakers
 
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pbluekan said:
Really? Where does it say this?

Nowhere here does it say we don't get the dyes. Explicitly that's what she's discovered it isn't going away. Glassworks is necessary to keep people safe.

I can see the merit of going to the dye workers first to start the industry, but with the danger of the chemicals I'm a little reticent to just tell them about it without prepping the glassworks which is said to be an extremely small group.
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:rofl:

Oh yes, conveniently leave the part out will you?

Academia Nut said:
The dye merchants of Redshore would not want competition, but she was pretty sure that she could convince them that these new colours would only enhance their products, and also allow them to bring new colours to the markets. The Trelli had apparently caused upset by bringing out a brilliant yellow dye that was a solid competitor for the traditional red-violet dye of the People.
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The provinces are going to be averse to taking it.
 
[x] [Prog] Art Patronage (-1 Econ, -2 Wealth, +4 Art, +1 Prestige)

I still want queen Ruwynna and thus is the most likely way to get it by convincing the miners and the merchants first.

[X] [Refugee] Those who arrive on their own (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Value] Highlanders

We need a new stab boosting action because all our other stab actions suck
pbluekan said:
Why highlanders? I'm curious, we've seen over the years that they're nothing at all like us and they're hereditary as fuck
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@pbluekan we took a risk and acquired a value from the xoh a civ even then were a bunch of human sacrificers the value turned to be one of the best values we had seriously it was through that value that we completed the iron research so your argument is rather baseless I mean we did not become the xoh when we took GG and CoT so why would taking a trait from the HK make us more hereditary?
 
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[X] [Prog] Build Glassworks (-1 Econ, +2 Art, increased chance of new innovations)
[X] [Refugee] Those who arrive on their own (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Value] Highlanders

Our weakness is stability. We need to work on it.
 
Hmm ahumm hummm.

So many flippy flops.

[X] [Prog] Art Patronage (-1 Econ, -2 Wealth, +4 Art, +1 Prestige)
[X] [Refugee] Those who arrive on their own (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Value] No

This is fine.

It solves the Dye problem for the next while, which is needed if we keep CoT which is our stat overflow maker, keeps our stability out of the crapper and boosts our Art.

I will trust our provinces to do Glassworks. But further thought makes me suspect they will not do art patronage if we take glass.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 17, 2017 at 3:57 AM, finished with 56254 posts and 50 votes.
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Econ go down by -1 no matter what we choose, which is good. That should be 13. One third of that is something like 4.333333, which get rounded to 4. 9 + 4 = 13 martial. So, just under our cap.

However, I am not sure if it would still be considered red. Hopefully not.

So, by spending an econ point, we just dodged a bullet. I hope.
 
[X] [Prog] Art Patronage (-1 Econ, -2 Wealth, +4 Art, +1 Prestige)
[X] [Refugee] Those who arrive on their own (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Value] No
I want the Prestige.
 
Kiba said:
Econ go down by -1 no matter what we choose, which is good. That should be 13. One third of that is something like 4.333333, which get rounded to 4. 9 + 4 = 13 martial. So, just under our cap.

However, I am not sure if it would still be considered red. Hopefully not.

So, by spending an econ point, we just dodged a bullet. I hope.
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Nope. WHR always rounds up. So spending one Econ does nothing to our bonus Martial.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 17, 2017 at 4:03 AM, finished with 56258 posts and 51 votes.
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10ebbor10 said:
I believe that currently we get 1 Wealth/Dominated Trade. Since we have 2, we get 2 Wealth/turn from Trade.

If we lose Center of Trade, the gain halves, and we need to dominate 2 trades to get 1 thing.
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This is untrue, I asked AN about it. If we lose CoT, we lose all that bonus Wealth generation, which leaves our +1 Saltern income as our only Wealth income.

I like CoT for narrative reasons too - it meshes well with Cosmopolitan Acceptance, because we have traders from other polities coming in to trade with us.
 
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[X] [Prog] Art Patronage (-1 Econ, -2 Wealth, +4 Art, +1 Prestige)
[X] [Refugee] Encourage those close to come (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ, possible new True City)
 
Deathbybunnies said:
This is untrue, I asked AN about it. If we lose CoT, we lose all that bonus Wealth generation, which leaves our +1 Saltern income as our only Wealth income.
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What he said was still ambiguous when you take the wording at the end of the update into account so we need to check.

The saltern thing just makes sense though.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 17, 2017 at 4:36 AM, finished with 56267 posts and 53 votes.
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Deathbybunnies said:
This is untrue, I asked AN about it. If we lose CoT, we lose all that bonus Wealth generation, which leaves our +1 Saltern income as our only Wealth income.

I like CoT for narrative reasons too - it meshes well with Cosmopolitan Acceptance, because we have traders from other polities coming in to trade with us.
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That still isn't confirmed, my interpretation is that we'd get half of the income we get now if we drop CoT.
 
No stat changes this midturn.


Trade Status
Resource Status Rivals
Luxuries    
Amber Known only  
Fine Pottery Minor Xohyssiri
Fine Dye Dominating Hathatyn, Trelli
Fine Textiles None Xohyssiri, Swamp Folk, Trelli
Furs Known only  
Glass Marginal Xohyssiri
Gold Lesser trading Hathatyn, Metal Workers, Trelli
Silver Leading Hath, MW, Xoh, Trelli
Salt Dominating None, Trelli
Spices None Trelli
Wine Leading Hath, Trelli
Strategic    
Copper Significant Hath, Highlanders, Thunder Horse, MW, Trelli
Bronze None Trelli
Tin None MW (in), TH (in), Hath (in), HK (in), Trelli
Iron Non-traded dominant None
Cultural    
Pilgrimage Significant Thunder Speakers, Xoh

No trade status changes.
No tech changes either.

Academia Nut said:
The building where her mother had worked and died was a charred husk, half gutted by fire and strange magics unleashed. The brick and adobe structure had been built in the northern badlands, within relatively easy access to supplies from Lower Valleyhome and the main trade routes to the south, but far enough away that any serious problems wouldn't spill over into places where people lived.
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Well that's sensible to do experiments away from population centers.

The former mistress of the place was buried in a grave along with the half dozen other people who had perished alongside her, and the compound had essentially be abandoned due to the belief that it was certainly haunted by ghosts and demons, which given the sharp, acrid smell to the place certainly seemed possible.
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Sulfur then.

Still, when Rulwyna had offered the suggestion that her mother would probably haunt her if she didn't even try to figure out what happened, several shamans who had known her had the blood drain from the faces and gave her all the warding charms they could before ushering her on her way.
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10/10 shamans agree, being haunted by Lolwyna is a terrible fate and not one to be near.

Picking her way into the burned out work area, the lesser part of a season gone since the incident, Rulwyna started to look over the place. The report they had received spoke of "thunder and lightning", but actually talking to the survivors and surveying the damage, that was obviously not what happened. Those on scene had reported "sound like thunder", and some of the damage was reminiscent of what might happen when lightning struck something, but it could have also been compared to what happened when a river rock was tossed into a fire.
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So there was an explosion and there was a steam explosion.

Coming to one of the areas with the worst damage, Rulwyna went through the stories that had been told to her by the people who had been there. Those who were closest when it all started were all dead, but there had been others close to them who had been there and had in fact helped evacuate most of those involved. Only one person had died immediately, the rest had lingered for several days at least, afflicted by terrible coughs and strange afflictions attributed to whatever curses had been unleashed. Still, standing here, Rulwyna was able to reconstruct some of what happened from those tales and her own senses.
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Most people suffered lung damage, which led to a slow death.
That's probably acidic fumes dissolving into acid in the lungs.

A horrible way to die
Her mother had been purifying a preparation in a kiln when it all started, that everyone was sure of. Her mother was certain that all things were composed of a limited number of base materials, and through the right treatments could be returned to primordial gygo, and from there coaxed into whatever form one wanted.
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Well...she produced all gygo after all :p
While for the most part she figured the magic to do all of that was only performable by spirits and gods, some of them had to be accessible to humans, with the two biggest ones being putrefaction by water and purification by fire - there were also arguments for dessication being by either earth or air, with some hypothetical fourth process projected onto the remaining element, possibly aging or curing, although some considered that to be a form of putrefaction. As such a huge amount of her mother's studies were in working out what combination of steps of putrefaction, purification, dessication, and aging used upon various substances yielded what results, with the goal being to discover ways to create new substances. Sometimes the reaction was quite violent, as in this instance.
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That's decent considering all the reactions known to them.

But buggy base theory because of missing facts.

What happened next was confused. Some said that the jar her mother had been carefully cooking in the kiln exploded with sufficient force to shatter the kiln and then spray burning coals everywhere, others said that while load there had been worse bangs from the pots cooking off before - usually because they weren't as dry as they should be, because as every kiln and forge worker knew, if you threw a pot full of water into one whatever happened to you was your own fault.
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Okay, we already knew about steam explosions apparently(though nobody thought to see why yet), and considered the product to be natural.

Also means that the blast exceeded a steam explosion.
It sounds strongly like she was cooking nitrates, because a jar detonating with that much kick pretty much has to be nitrate work.
From here, Rulwyna could see that the kiln had partially collapsed, but whether that happened right away or later from the rest of the fire was uncertain. There were no survivors who had been directly next to her immediately after, but she may have been sprayed with liquid or fumes from the pot being tested, causing the strange burns that had ultimately killed her.
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Acid burns then.

After that the story got weird. No one was quite sure how it happened, but a fire started elsewhere while everyone was trying to deal with the kiln problem. Some said that the initial blast had spewed embers that had ignited things, others had said that the fire just appeared. Looking around, Rulwyna let her eyes track the extent of the damage, and the blackest and most charred areas were the kiln and one of the storage rooms nearby, with no major burns connecting them.
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CSI Ymaryn. Primary explosion was caused by separate causes from the fire.

In fact, looking at things and going over to one of the still mostly intact storage rooms, she saw that there had been thick brick walls between the storage area and the working area, and the door had been positioned not to face towards anything where fire was worked with. It seemed impossible for the kiln to have set fire to the store room like that, especially since one of the four storerooms had actually survived partially intact, it's shelves still filled with clay jugs filled with alchemical reagents.
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Seems like our safety measures were decent. Lolwyna knew about fire and shockwaves and took proper precautions.

Actually, eyes flickering over the jugs, Rulwyna noted something most peculiar. In one of the corners one of the containers had cracked, the contents spilling out onto the ground and leaving a large patch where the floor had been visibly corroded. Checking the pot, she found it labelled 'Spirit of vitriol' and the material of the pot crumbly and flaky, the glaze the only portion that seemed relatively unaffected other than the breakdown of the material backing it. Checking several other jugs, Rulwyna realized that many of them were also showing signs of their contents attacking the material of the jugs, usually along what appeared to be imperfections or damage in the glazing.
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And here we have the culprit, completely unrelated to the actual experiment: ceramics could not contain acids, and while glazing WORKED to some extent, the methods of applying glazes was imperfect(note, ash glaze was applied as a powder, with obvious distribution issues) which led to acids eating through the gaps and pores to get at the rest of the pot.

That was... not good. It also planted an idea in Rulwyna's mind. The initial bang may have been relatively mundane, but maybe it rattled an already weakened jug that spilled onto something it should never mix with, starting a fire that fed upon stored alchemical reagents, producing uncontrollable flames and poisonous smoke.
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And that's what caused a chemical lab fire.
Leaving the ruins behind, Rulwyna went for the living quarters. Her mother must have left notes or doodles upon the walls that might be of use...
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...Lolwyna's notes are atrocious.
Even the walls.


Riding out several days later with what notes she had found and what she had deduced from the ruins, Rulwyna knew that her mother had been on the verge of something greater than she realized. Her processing of tailings waste to produce various kinds of vitriol had undoubtedly lead to disaster, as her obsession with the transformative powers of essence of vitriol had lead to her storing enormous quantities of the oily liquid alongside the various salts and ashes she made from the burning and cooking of plants and rocks.
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So it looks like she probably had soda ash, potassium ash, nitrates, all stored next to a large supply of sulfuric acid.
It sounds to me like Lolwyna figured out saltpeter, but because of the nature of the disaster, nobody who knew what she was cooking on that day was alive to know.

Rulwyna would probably never work out what exactly had gone wrong, and thus would never be able to practically replicate the thunderous power that had gone into the fire, but her mother had discovered ways to transform simple materials into brilliant colours. The dye merchants of Redshore would not want competition, but she was pretty sure that she could convince them that these new colours would only enhance their products, and also allow them to bring new colours to the markets. The Trelli had apparently caused upset by bringing out a brilliant yellow dye that was a solid competitor for the traditional red-violet dye of the People.
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But we have dyes! Rich dyes!

The Trelli are selling Saffron dye I think, which is from a hell of a long way away, but if we broke out the colorful alchemical dyes they're dead in the water.

Also, if she could convince the dye merchants of this, she could go to the miners and tell them that they vitriol produced by their work could be immensely valuable instead of a toxic byproduct they had to carefully seal away. She could also let the small glass maker's group that they were now more important than ever - simple glazed pottery would likely never be enough to contain essence of vitriol. The relationships of all the goods that were needed to make this all work in more just a lab was immense, but she could see the connections, and she felt like a spider sitting at the centre of a web only she could understand the significance of. Combine with her contacts among warriors... yes. Yes, Rulwyna would have the connections and the power to keep herself safe, and beyond that to keep herself comfortable.

Maybe even powerful.
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Is that an Admin King I smell?


What does her machinations produce first?
[] [Prog] Art Patronage (-1 Econ, -2 Wealth, +4 Art, +1 Prestige)

Move to exploiting the new dyes immediately. It also causes the dyemakers to splinter a bit, so weakening the big guilds.
It's a Best of the Best boosted Main Art Patronage. No innovation chance though.
This would probably lead to the development of paintings once we have chemical pigment paints.

[] [Prog] Build Glassworks (-1 Econ, +2 Art, increased chance of new innovations)

Now that the qualities of glass for the purpose of alchemy is revealed, this is a powerful boost for further alchemy development. Also moves Glass to a significant trade good.
It makes the glassmakers to be influential where they used to be unimportant, and makes the potters threatened because they aren't the only source of containers anymore, even if glass is more expensive to make


[] [Prog] Expand Snail Cultivation (-1 Econ, +1 Wealth, +1 Art, potential additional effects)

This helps cement the current dyemakers position by driving the dye cost down compared to saffron to compete with the Trelli imports.

[] [Prog] Expand Vineyard (-1 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, +1 Wealth, +1 Art)

Well, wine is wine. Taking a shot at Dominance?


Poor weather has destabilized a number of neighbours, how many should be brought it?
[] [Refugee] Those who arrive on their own (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[] [Refugee] Encourage those close to come (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ, possible new True City)
[] [Refugee] Draw from all neighbours afflicted (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, new True City)

Given our current Martial situation and the Baby Boom, I don't see any urgency to do this. Just stay on Balanced and do some major walls or art patronage.

Recent innovations means that Centre of Trade is no longer necessary to have access to the market, but it does double the benefits of market dominance. Change value supported by Cosmopolitan acceptance?
[] [Value] No

-Maintain current wealth generation. Losing this will halve the power of Dominance(on the other hand, it means dominance is risk free for us, which is HUGE if we want to start competing in a dozen different products and drive our neighbors mad).
-Trade wars will continue to be a pain.

[] [Value] Highlanders

-We know they have Order Above All, but little else is known
-Some family trait?

[] [Value] Thunder Speakers

-Some religious trait?
-Some martial trait?

[] [Value] Thunder Horse

-Some family trait?
-Some martial trait?
-Some hegemon trait?

[] [Value] Xohyssiri

-Some religious trait?
-Some trade trait?

[] [Value] Hathatyn

-Some metal trait?
-Some trade trait?
-Some decentralization trait?(i.e. like the old Pioneering Spirit, since it's the only thing that we know can consume their Centralization)
-???

[] [Value] Metal Workers

-Some metal trait?
-???

[] [Value] Nomads

-Some family trait?
-Some martial trait?

Overall vote:

[X] [Prog] Build Glassworks (-1 Econ, +2 Art, increased chance of new innovations)
[X] [Refugee] Those who arrive on their own (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Value] Hathatyn

Going to have a go at the Hathatyn. Maybe we can grab the Pioneering Spirit evolution so we can drop Centralization to use for Enforce Justice without hurting New Trails.
 
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[X] [Prog] Build Glassworks (-1 Econ, +2 Art, increased chance of new innovations)
[X] [Refugee] Those who arrive on their own (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Value] No

Late to the party again. Better container for all that dangerous stuff.
 
I asked:
Deathbybunnies said:
Wait, this is unclear. This can be read as:
  1. After the change, Centre of Trade's bonus Wealth generation from dominating is doubled
  2. After the change, we get bonus Wealth generation from dominating by default, and Centre of Trade doubles this
These are two very different things - in one case, dropping Centre of Trade means dropping +2 Wealth/turn for each good dominated, whilst in the other dropping Centre of Trade means we drop 1 Wealth/turn for each good, and keep 1/Wealth/turn for each good.

@Academia Nut , which is it?

EDIT: Also, if we drop Centre of Trade do we still lose Stability for losing dominance?
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And AN said:
Academia Nut said:
You will lose per turn Wealth generation if you drop Centre of Trade.
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We were told that we'd lose our per turn Wealth generation effect.

EDIT: On its' own that statement is unclear, but as an explicit response to my question where he's specifying one or the other it only makes sense if he's specifying that we lose the whole effect. That statement cannot be taken as explicitly saying we only lose half of it and not all.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
I asked:


And AN said:

We were told that we'd lose our per turn Wealth generation effect.
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You can read it as:
-You will lose all per turn Wealth generation from trade
-You will lose any per turn Wealth generation from trade
-You will lose all per turn Wealth generation

However, if you factor in:
Recent innovations means that Centre of Trade is no longer necessary to have access to the market, but it does double the benefits of market dominance. Change value supported by Cosmopolitan acceptance?
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-You will lose all per turn Wealth generation from trade
-You will lose any per turn Wealth generation from trade
-You will lose all per turn Wealth generation

We halve the Trade wealth generation in exchange, we get the ability to compete in every market at no risk to ourselves.
So we can for instance threaten Xohyssiri market dominance, trigger their Stability loss and steal their artisans via refugees without being concerned if they do anything but launch a trade war.
 
veekie said:
You can read it as:
-You will lose all per turn Wealth generation from trade
-You will lose any per turn Wealth generation from trade
-You will lose all per turn Wealth generation

However, if you factor in:

-You will lose all per turn Wealth generation from trade
-You will lose any per turn Wealth generation from trade
-You will lose all per turn Wealth generation

We halve the Trade wealth generation in exchange, we get the ability to compete in every market at no risk to ourselves.
So we can for instance threaten Xohyssiri market dominance, trigger their Stability loss and steal their artisans via refugees without being concerned if they do anything but launch a trade war.
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As in my edit:
On its' own that statement is unclear, but as an explicit response to my question where he's specifying one or the other it only makes sense if he's specifying that we lose the whole effect. That statement cannot be taken as explicitly saying we only lose half of it and not all.

EDIT: I asked the question because the original statement was unclear! You can't determine whether or not it meant the whole per turn Wealth generation from trade or part from that statement!

Without CoT, the Market is just an information tool.
 
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